The Truth About the Christian Canon

[Hoddie]

26 minutes ago, woundeddog said:

so if its not your job to convert- and you know most likely you will not--

How do you know I haven't, and how are you so sure that I know, that I most likely will not?

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why waste your time???

I don't consider it a waste of time refuting the fallicies about Catholicism that are being posted and showing the truth and beauty of Christs Church, The Holy Catholic Church.

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just enjoy arguing??

Nope, I don't enjoy arguing anymore than seeing all the lies some people in this forum are spewing about Catholicism. And I feel it is my job to reveal these lies to the world..

Peace

[woundeddog]

4 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Please show where I posted Sacred Tradiion "in Many cases negates actual Scripture"?  If you cannot, are you willing to admit this is a lie and apologize not only to me but the whole Worthy Christian forum?

The use of tradition seems to in many cases invalidate what scripture says- or to twist scripture into applications that are not really in keeping with the rest of scripture,,

 

One example which is pretty obvious is how Mary is portrayed- Scripture says and angel called her blessed, that she was a virgin, and that Jesus told John from the cross that she was Johns mother . Roman Catholic tradition has built the legend to Mary and elevated her to the position of the Queen of Heaven co-redemtix and mother of the church-- an object of pray, and if you ask the average Catholic an object of worship- ( I know she is only venerated) but the difference between worship and veneration is the same as between saying 12 inches or a foot~~~~ so Tradition is usurping scriptures authority or negating scripture. so I am not telling a lie, and I owe you no apology--

[woundeddog]

1 hour ago, Hoddie said:

realPresence and I were one in the same

okay- I will just rephrase the statement-- but still using an avian comparison-- "birds of a feather flock together"-- okay> feel better

[woundeddog]

1 hour ago, Hoddie said:

1 hour ago, woundeddog said:

so if its not your job to convert- and you know most likely you will not--

How do you know I haven't, and how are you so sure that I know, that I most likely will not?

Quote

why waste your time???

I don't consider it a waste of time refuting the fallicies about Catholicism that are being posted and showing the truth and beauty of Christs Church, The Holy Catholic Church.

Quote

just enjoy arguing??

Nope, I don't enjoy arguing anymore than seeing all the lies some people in this forum are spewing about Catholicism. And I feel it is my job to reveal these lies to the world..

Peace

I'm back-- had to go- the speaker did not show up so I had to preach-- nothing pertinent to respond to in this post-- so most likely I iwll be off line rest on night- Hope you have a safe New Years Eve

[Ezra]

23 hours ago, Hoddie said:

Nope, I don't enjoy arguing anymore than seeing all the lies some people in this forum are spewing about Catholicism. And I feel it is my job to reveal these lies to the world..

That statement itself is a lie. There is no denying THE FACT that Roman Catholicism is corrupted Christianity -- false Christianity. Just because that truth is unpalatable does not make it a lie. 

"But how shall I relate my surprise when I discovered that, in order to accept the principles of the theologians which my Church gave me for guides I had to put away all principles of truth, of justice, of honour and holiness! What long and painful efforts it cost me to extinguish, one by one, the lights of truth and of reason kindled by the hand of my merciful God in my intelligence. For to study theology in the Church of Rome signifies to learn to speak falsely, to deceive, to commit robbery, to perjure one's self! It means how to commit sins without shame, it means to plunge the soul into every kind of iniquity and turpitude without remorse!"

http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/cc50_ch13.html

[SavedOnebyGrace]

On 12/30/2016 at 10:52 AM, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

You haven't "corrected" me on anything. My facts are straight as to why these books aren't in the bible, and why the Holy Ghost allowed only a few quotes from them.

I corrected your post that claimed books like Jasher and Jubilees no longer exist.  That is a false statement.  Period.  I am not arguing for their inclusion in the Judeo-Christian OT Canon.

[HAZARD]

Hoodie wrote;

"Thats ridiculous....... Just as a stream can never be higher than it's source, a creation can never be greater than it's creator. Sheesh!"

.

If he knew where the word "Sheesh," originated and what it meant he wouldn't use it.

Word Origin

interjection

1.

(used to express exasperation).

Origin of sheeshExpand

euphemistic shortening or alteration of Jesus or sh*t

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sheesh

 

Exodus 20:7, Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Deut. 5:11, Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

[Hoddie]

On Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 3:14 PM, woundeddog said:

The use of tradition seems to in many cases invalidate what scripture says- or to twist scripture into applications that are not really in keeping with the rest of scripture,,

It seems too? So in other words..... you're not positive. Thanks for clearing that up. Besides woundeddog, you don't have much room to talk when it comes to traditions. As RealPresence and myself have proven over and over, your adhereant to sola scriptura is, ironically, a human tradition not found in Scripture, and it is a huge source of theological chaos and a doctrine not fully lived even by its adherents. Scripture is the written portion of the Church’s sacred Tradition. It cannot be separated from the whole of that Tradition and from the Catholic Church’s magisterial authority without distorting the very message God intends us to discover in it. And sola scriptura is only one of the many unbiblical man-made traditions (lower case t) that Protestant/non-Catholics embrace.... like The Sinner's Prayer, the Altar Call, using grape juice at communion service to name a few. If they are not found in Scripture, what do you consider them?

One example which is pretty obvious is how Mary is portrayed- Scripture says and angel called her blessed, that she was a virgin,

Yes... Blessed among women. Scripture also says "from henceforth, 'all' generations shall call me Blessed." Lk.1:48. Do you?

and that Jesus told John from the cross that she was Johns mother .

In St. John’s account of the Crucifixion, there is the following passage: "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home." (Jn. 19:26-27).

The Church has traditionally understood this passage as creating a mother-son relationship between Mary and St. John. Further, the Church has understood St. John’s as representing all of Christ’s disciples, thus providing a biblical basis for Mary’s spiritual motherhood of the People of God. In Galatians 4:4-7, there is an unmistakable connection between the Son of God’s being "born of woman" and our becoming God’s children by adoption. Further, Scripture reveals Mary as having other children—those who keep God’s commandments (cf. Rev. 12:17; Lk. 8:31).

Early in the life of the Church, Mary was given the title the "New Eve," because "the knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith" (St. Irenaeus, as quoted in Lumen Gentium, no. 56). In other words, as Eve became the "mother of all the living" (Gen. 3:20) on a natural level, Mary became the mother of all the living (i.e., those alive in Christ) on a supernatural level, in the order of grace (cf. Catechism, no. 968). From heaven she still intercedes for us as our mother (cf. Lumen Gentium, no. 62).

Roman Catholic tradition has built the legend to Mary and elevated her to the position of the Queen of Heaven co-redemtix and mother of the church-- an object of pray,

Deacon Mark I. Miravalle, S.T.D., Professor of Theology and Mariology at Franciscan University of Steubenville in Steubenville, Ohio, offers a valuable explanation of this term: "The title, "Co-redemptrix," refers to Mary’s unique participation with and under her Divine Son Jesus Christ, in the historic Redemption of humanity. The prefix, "Co," comes from the Latin "cum," which means "with." The title of Co-redemptrix applied to the Mother of Jesus never places Mary on a level of equality with Jesus Christ, the divine Lord of all, in the saving process of humanity’ s Redemption. Rather, it denotes Mary’s singular and unique sharing with her Son in the saving work of Redemption for the human family. The Mother of Jesus participates in the redemptive work of her Savior Son, who alone could reconcile humanity with the Father in his glorious divinity and humanity."

Deacon Miravalle spells out precisely what Mary did alongside her dying Son.

"Mary uniquely participated in the sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary and in the acquisition of the graces of Redemption for humanity (theologically referred to as "objective redemption"). Mary offered her Son and her maternal rights in relation to her Son to the Heavenly Father in perfect obedience to God’s will and in atonement for the sins of the world. Mary’s offering of her own Son on Calvary, along with her own motherly compassion, rights and suffering, offered in union with her Son for the salvation of the human family, merited more graces than any other created person. As Pope Pius XII confirmed in his encyclical On the Mystical Body, Mary "offered Him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father, together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and her motherly love, like a New Eve for all children of Adam."

Despite her enormous grief as she watched her Son die, Our Lady generously "yielded" Jesus to the purpose the Father through the Holy Spirit intended, namely the reconciliation of the human race to its Creator. Although what Mary did on Calvary was secondary and subordinate to what Christ did, it was, nevertheless, necessary because God made it so. In His unparalleled wisdom, the Lord required this all-encompassing—and real—sacrifice from Mary, who said her fiat with incredible trust in God as she had at the Annunciation. Mary’s entire existence has been one of cooperation with the Lord. So it was on Calvary. She who was preserved by God from Original Sin at the moment of her conception and heard from the mouth of Simeon that "you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." (Lk.2:35)

and if you ask the average Catholic an object of worship- ( I know she is only venerated) but the difference between worship and veneration is the same as between saying 12 inches or a foot

I'm an average Catholic, ask me if The Blessed Virgin Mary is an object of worship?

so Tradition is usurping scriptures authority or negating scripture.

Again you are incorrect. The Catholic Church has as its sole rule of faith, the entire Word of God, as it is found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. All of the Word of God was at one time passed on orally…Sacred Tradition. Eventually, some of Sacred Tradition was written down…this became Sacred Scripture, which is written tradition. However, Scripture itself tells us that not all of the things that Jesus said and did were written down. And listen to what Paul says about "tradition":2 Thes 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to "stand firm and hold to". Sacred Scripture and
1 Cor 11:2, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you." The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions that he passed on to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

2 Tim 2:2: "and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition. 1 Thes 2:13, "And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers." So, they received as the Word of God that which they heard, not simply that which they read in Scripture.

In other words woundeddog, the Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church’s teaching that the Word of God is contained in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

so I am not telling a lie

Is that right? Do you not remember what you posted back on page 9 of this thread to Matrix? Here, I'll refresh your memory:

"Hoddie has proven time and time agAin by many incredibly astute point that Tradition is equaL AND IN MANY CASES NEGATES ACTUAL SCRIPTURE."

So, if you are not lying, show the post or posts where I stated Sacred Traditions "Negates Actual Scripture". If you cannot, are you willing to admit your error? (lie)

and I owe you no apology

How could the sin of Bearing False Witness be forgiven, if one won't even admit to it?

To quote Jiminy Cricket..... "Always let your conscience be your guide."

　

　

[Hoddie]

On Sunday, January 01, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Ezra said:

That statement itself is a lie. There is no denying THE FACT that Roman Catholicism is corrupted Christianity -- false Christianity.

And there is no denying the "FACT" that is something you have failed to do!

Just because that truth is unpalatable does not make it a lie.

Lol! Who's truth..... Yours?

"But how shall I relate my surprise when I discovered that, in order to accept the principles of the theologians which my Church gave me for guides I had to put away all principles of truth, of justice, of honour and holiness! What long and painful efforts it cost me to extinguish, one by one, the lights of truth and of reason kindled by the hand of my merciful God in my intelligence.

For to study theology in the Church of Rome signifies to learn to speak falsely, to deceive, to commit robbery, to perjure one's self! It means how to commit sins without shame, it means to plunge the soul into every kind of iniquity and turpitude without remorse!"

Lol! you never cease to amaze me Erza. Your desperateness is truly showing by quoting the likes of Charles Chiniquy as truth. For those that didn't know, He has been a favorite source for anti-Catholics – throughout the 19th and 20th and now the Twenty First centuries – for his spiteful and entirely unfounded accusations against the Church. The basis for his anti-Catholicism stemmed from his own removal from Catholic ministry for inappropriate behavior. The facts are: Chiniquy was ordained a priest in 1839 in Quebec City and became known as a powerful orator and the so-called Canadian "Apostle of Temperance." In 1846, however, his scandalous and immoral activities led to his departure from Quebec, from the Oblate novitiate at Longueuil in 1847, and from the diocese of Montreal in 1851. The last removal stemmed from his improper relationships with women. He journeyed to Chicago and was so unwilling to curb his behavior and sexual indiscretions that he local bishop, Anthony O’Regan suspended him and, with regret, eventually excommunicated him for refusing to cease his behavior or desist in administering the sacraments.

In 1859, he and 1,000 followers gathered at St. Anne, Illinois and became affiliated with the local Presbyterian Synod. In 1862, the Presbyterians also cast Chiniquy from their community – going so far as to defrock him – for conduct unbecoming a minister. He then went with his gullible followers to Canada. There he embarked upon a long career as a vicious anti-Catholic polemicist in order to gain favor with the various anti-Catholic Protestant groups in the country and as a means of explaining away his own excommunication. His writings are so blatantly untruthful that they are not worth critiquing. One other area of Chiniquy’s writing that is worth mentioning is his absurd effort to claim that Abraham Lincoln was assassinated in 1865 by a conspiracy of the Jesuits. Such a notion, propagated by anti-Catholics even in to the 20th century, is completely unsupported by historical fact.

Chiniquy claimed to be a close friend of Lincoln, using the one-time legal assistance given to him by the future president to claim that he had visited Lincoln during the civil war, in 1862 and 1864. Such visits were not noted in any of Lincoln’s papers, nor were they ever mentioned by Lincoln’s secretary John Hay. The story was also thoroughly rejected by Lincoln’s own son who attested to the fabrication by Chiniquy of quotes supposedly made by the resident relating to the Jesuits and a Catholic cabal. For useful reading, you might consult "The Lincoln Writings of Charles P.T. Chiniquy," by Joseph George Jr., in the Journal of the Illinois State Historical Society, Feb. 1976, vol. 69, pp. 17-25. The article documents Chiniquy’s lies and distortions. Given his lack of credibility on this major issue, one can easily see why his other anti-Catholic claims are considered so preposterous.

 

[Hoddie]

13 minutes ago, Davida said:

These posts just demonstrate the false religion that comes out of the Vatican.   What it preaches is at odds with GOD, His Son our Lord Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit and it contradicts the Word of God & has added to it their false teachings. That co-redemptrix stuff is Paganistic False Doctrine of the RCC - show us in the Bible scripture where JESUS mother is touted as being "co" redemptrix.  Here's news there is no "our lady" in Christianity- this perfectly shows how the rcc is not Christian but a False religion posing as Christian. Everything you utter claiming it is Christian and truth is abomination and an insult to God.  Stonehenge is as Christian.

Thank you for another impotent, fallible, and open for error personal opinion with nothing to back it up.