Who is this Jewish Messiah?

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Sorry to tell you but the trinity doctrine is not essential for salvation.

The Doctrine that Jesus is God IS Essential for salvation, even if the Trinity is not.

 

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And how does the trinity doctrine fit in with breaking Gods laws?

What a person believes about Jesus as to whether or not He is God determines their fitness to instruct others about God's laws. 

 

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And yet faith without works is counted as nothing

Yes, but that is applied in Scripture to moral conduct, not whether someone keeps the Sabbath or not.
 

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Back to the subject.....why as you claim the church fathers, talking of the apostles here....would they make Gods laws, specific in this case the Sabbath, to be made redundant.....when they are observing them and making teaching arrangements on the sabbath with Gentiles about Christ who apparently made sabbaths redundant?

Acts 13:42 (NKJV) So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

 

Well, at one point, at the very beginning, the synagogues were all they had.  But when Paul and the other apostles began establishing churches for the Gentiles, separate from the synagogues where believers met every Sunday, all of that changed.   Paul established churches in cities where there were already synagogues.   So if the intention was the Gentiles were supposed to live like Jews, why build separate churches in cities that had synagogues already in them?

We know from early writings going back to at least 150 AD that churches were meeting on Sunday.   So if they thought they were obligated to meet on the Sabbath, then we would expect early Christians to continue meeting at the synagogues, but that is simply not the case.

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Would you like to also call the gentiles in Acts 13:42 Judaizers?

No, the Judaizers were a heretical sect of Jewish believers who taught that Gentiles needed to be circumcised and convert to the Jewish religion and comport themselves to the law of Moses in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

[Zach]

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, but that is applied in Scripture to moral conduct, not whether someone keeps the Sabbath or not.

Can you please direct me to the section of Scripture where it says breaking any of God's laws is Not a moral issue? Or perhaps I misunderstand: Are you saying under the new covenant the only laws are moral laws; laws between and pertaining to men and not to God?

[Guest shiloh357]

6 minutes ago, inchrist said:

But that is the very definition of the trinity...can you atleast try to unbiased?

Seekers  must simply receive Christ as their Lord and Savior......an act which also implies repentance 

Further these doctrines about the deity of Jesus is while worthwhile discussing, however understanding them is not required for salvation. 

The deity of Jesus is a separate issue from the Trinity.  I am speaking simply to the issue that Jesus is God.  And that is actually part of the Gospel, that Jesus was God in the flesh who died for our sins.  Otherwise Jesus was just a man and would be unqualified to die for our sins.  So the deity of Jesus is front and center in our presentation of the Gospel.  But those who don't share the Gospel are unaware of that reality.

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If we tell people that they cannot be saved until they know and have been convinced of these additional doctrines, then what you are creating is obstacles for them.

Since it is part of the Gospel presentation, if they reject the Gospel, they reject the deity of Jesus, too.  It's all one package deal. If they don't want to believe Jesus is God, they won't accept His payment for their sin
 

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So in reality you are appling your own standard who you think is fit to discuss scripture....

 

Know, I am acknowledging who is fit to TEACH Scripture.  A person who rejects Jesus as God, cannot relate the Bible correctly because the Bible says Jesus is God and what the Bible teaches about salvation and Christian doctrine is predicated on the foundational premise that Jesus is God.

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Sorry but Gods laws in their entirety are all works...there is no exception clause.

No, that is not correct.  If that were true, we should be sacrificing, making pilgrimages to Jerusalem three times a year and so on.   Not even you keep all of God's laws.  

And not all of God's laws were for all people for all time.  To claim they only serves to create an incoherent theology.

 

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Again Gods laws are not Jewish, you need to get this out your head

And again, I never said that God's laws are Jewish.   You need to get that out of your head and stop assigning false values to me and start responding to what I actually said.  Think you can manage that?

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..hence you battling here.....because you should of realised alot of the doctrines taught in the synagogues were more rabbinical,  which Christ nailed to the Cross,

No, that is not the case.  If you bother to study, you would discover that what was nailed to the cross was our violations of God's commandments, our sin.    Paul was drawing on Roman crucifixion imagery wherein the laws a person broke were nailed to their cross for all to see.  It was meant to be a deterrent for others contemplating to commit the same offenses.    The laws we broke were nailed to Jesus' cross and our sin were imputed to him.   That's what means.

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establishing a church to focus on Gods laws and the messiah would make sense....no?

Jesus said that the Church was built on the rock of Peter's confession that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

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Your next step is to turn to the Jewish Council who regulated the churches.....interesting Jewish council....

No they didn't regulate the churches.  The Churches were autonomous.

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You do realise when the temple fell in 70 Ad hostility increased towards christians? That a complete breakway was inifitable?

Except many, many churches were established prior to 70 AD.  And that doesn't really matter because the point is that the churches were already meeting independently of the synagogues and they had their own pastors, and overseers from among their own congregations.

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Zach said:

Can you please direct me to the section of Scripture where it says breaking any of God's laws is Not a moral issue? Or perhaps I misunderstand: Are you saying under the new covenant the only laws are moral laws; laws between and pertaining to men and not to God?

How is not keeping the Sabbath a moral or ethical issue?   You are assuming what needs to be proven.   You need to demonstrate that keeping the Sabbath is an issue of moral purity.   If you can't, then you have no grounds to accuse someone of being immoral for not being Sabbath observant.

[Zach]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

How is not keeping the Sabbath a moral or ethical issue?   You are assuming what needs to be proven.   You need to demonstrate that keeping the Sabbath is an issue of moral purity.   If you can't, then you have no grounds to accuse someone of being immoral for not being Sabbath observant.

Really? I need to demonstrate moral purity is an issue totally dependent on laws pertaining to our fellow man and laws pertaining to God have no effect on our moral purity? So you think disobeying God is not a moral issue?

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Its Gods law....breaking any of Gods law is a moral issue....it is the opposite of righteousness....you need to prove its redundant.....

But you have not established that a Gentile Christian is breaking God's law if he eats pork or worships on Sunday.   You can only break a law if that law was given to you.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Zach said:

Really? I need to demonstrate moral purity is an issue totally dependent on laws pertaining to our fellow man and laws pertaining to God have no effect on our moral purity? So you think disobeying God is not a moral issue?

When we use the terms "morality" or "moral issues,"  it is pretty clear what we are talking about.   Moral purity pertains to sexual purity.  It pertains to honesty, integrity and strength of character.   Morality pertains to how we relate to other people in terms of our personal interactions with them.

So, any attempt broaden the definition of morality to include how we interact with God, simply isn't going to fly. 

Disobeying God is not a moral issue.  It is a sin issue, a spiritual rebellion issue.

[Zach]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Disobeying God is not a moral issue.

Then clearly we've reached an impasse.

[Guest shiloh357]

46 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Seriously who are fooling?

The issue of the Trinity pertains to one God in three Persons.   The issue of Jesus Deity is a doctrine all its own apart from the Trinity.

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I never really understood this statement "if you bothered

 to study" ....Im in here almost everyday...always providing scriptures always reading amd learning the scriptures....yet I have not bothered to study.....simply lazy accusation really.

 

Had you bothered to study, you would not have made the claim that Jesus nailed rabbinical rules to the cross.  That's just a silly claim that has no basis in fact. 

 

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There are two aspects to this

 

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

Certainly dying on the cross for our sins but that is only part of Christ's mission...the other part was The Wall of Partition

 

And in greek the word ordinances is dogmasin.....God does not create dogmas He creates Commandments....man creates dogmas especially rabbinical ones.

 

Again, that is just nonsense.  Doctrines or (dogma) are the teachings of Scripture that form the basis for practical Christian living.  So yes God does create dogma. His teachings are dogma.

 

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Then why do you keep referring to gentiles wanting to live like Jews? Gods laws are not Jewish....so they cant be living like jews 

I never said anything about Gentiles wanting to live like Jews.   I said that God hasn't commanded Gentile Christians to live like Jews.   And you know what I mean.  I am saying that God does not expect Gentiles to keep the Sabbath day, to refrain from pork and other non-kosher meat, nor are they under obligation to keep the Festivals.

 

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Really then why did you refer to the Jewish council in the pork thread debate in order to make a blanket case for the church?

 

What I said was that the four commandments given by the first Jerusalem Council formed the bare essentials required of the Gentiles for table fellowship with their fellow Jews.  For those Gentile believers who took that recommendation to heart, it would regulate what they ate when they were around Jewish believers, if they wanted to be in their homes or wanted Jews to come into their homes.  They were requried to remain sexually pure, avoid idols and eat animals that had been killed according to Jewish law.

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And that proves what exactly? That the church stopped obeying Gods Laws? 

What it means was that the Jerusalem Council was not a legislative magisterium for the Gentile churches around the world at that time.

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Your assumption needs to be built up with evidence....not arrogance like this following statement

Sorry, but the fact that Jesus is God permeate the whole Bible.   It is a foundational, non-negotiable  doctrine of Scripture and is also foundational to the Gospel.  Those who  teach need to affirm the basic doctrines of Scripture

 

 

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JohnD,

Yes, I`m a bit late on this thread, but I hope I can add to the conversation. Fair enough question -

`Was it just a vehicle of convenience that Jesus was born Jewish? And that his global outreach to all peoples of the Earth trumps his heritage (making him essential a Gentile Christ as opposed to a Jewish Messiah)?`

In other words, Why was He born of Israel?

We know that the Godhead rule over all. Then we also read in God`s word that God the Father ordained for His Son to lawfully rule in His glorified body specifically in every realm - the earth, & the heavenly realms. Then we realise that God made the nation of Israel to rule the nations of the world & their king was to come from their nation.

The law of kingship under the Old Testament is very explicit. According to the divine law no stranger or foreigner was to be selected as king, but a brother of like nationality. Like wise no sport enthusiast, no self-indulgent individual & no seeker of riches was to be permitted to reign. The king was required to be familiar with the scriptures and a seeker of the truth.

` you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses: one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the Lord has said to you, "You shall not return that way again." Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver & gold for himself. 

Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from the one before the priests, the Levites. And it shall be with him, & he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law & these statutes, that his heart may not be lifted above his brethren, that he may not turn aside from the commandment to the right hand or to the left, and that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he & his children in the midst of Israel. ` (Deut. 17: 15 - 20) 

Thus we realise that the Lord Jesus is King of the Jews, (Matt. 2: 2) & also King of Israel, (John 1: 47 - 49). He is their kin. One from among them, their brother. Then as the Lord is King in other realms, we see that concerning us, the Body of Christ, He is also our kin, our relation, brother. He is our Head & we are His body. The is no greater relationship than that, (except the Godhead). And we are told that we rule & reign with Christ on His highest throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

So in regard to the question the answer as always has to do with God the Father`s purposes through Christ -

-  for the Body of Christ - Head & Body.

- for Israel - King & nation.

- for the nations - King over the ruling nation of Israel.

 

Marilyn.

Hi JohnD,

I have posted this again in case you missed it. What say you to my comments?

Marilyn.