The Holy Trinity?

[Guest shiloh357]

9 hours ago, brakelite said:

And the trinity is built on more than one or two verses? You said previously that the Holy Spirit is referred to as "He", as opposed to an "it". That in numerous places such was the case.

Here are the ONLY verses that refer to the Holy Spirit as a “He” or “Him.” Verses are abbreviated.

John 14:16-17 “he shall give you another [allos] COMFORTER [parakletos], that he may abide with you forever; 17 Even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH;”
John 14:26 “But the COMFORTER [parakletos], which is the Holy Ghost,”
John 15:26 “when the COMFORTER [parakletos] is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the SPIRIT OF TRUTH,”
John 16:7 “if I go not away, the COMFORTER [parakletos] will not come unto you;”
John 16:13 “when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, is come, he will guide you into all truth:”

Note that EVERY verse is referring to the COMFORTER [Greek=parakletos] and SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

So who is the COMFORTER and SPIRIT OF TRUTH?

In John 14:6 Jesus says, “I am the truth” and by His Spirit He is the “Spirit of truth.” (John 14:17)
And in John 14:18 Jesus said, “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.”

It is Christ by “HIS” Spirit!

The problem is that you're treating "His Spirit as if the Spirit is something akin to Jesus' soul, as if Jesus is sending a different part of Himself.   And that is really bad theology.   The use of "He"  noted above is sufficient to refute your reference to the Holy Spirit as an "it" especially when coupled with all of the personal attributes of the Holy Spirit.   

When Jesus says, I will come to you, that's true.  Yet at the same time, the Holy Spirit is a different person, separate from and independent of Jesus, too.  The Holy Spirit and Jesus are God, but they are separate Persons.   Jesus comes to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit. 

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Many get confused because Jesus said he will send “another” Comforter not realizing that the “another” is HIS SPIRIT. The Greek word “allos” for “another” in John 14:16 means another of the exact same kind. Jesus was present with His disciples in physical form, but after His ascension He comes back in another form, that is, by His Spirit. Hence the “another” is His Spirit. Because Christ's Spirit can function independently of Himself, it is like His Spirit is “another.” And because it is His Spirit, it is “another” of the same kind. If it was someone different, John would have used the Greek word “heteros” which means another of a different kind.

It defies logic to say that Jesus is basically sending himself.  Allos is used in the Greek to distinguish between angels. It is a common reference in the book of Revelation.  Jesus said that the Holy Spirit could not come until He had departed and that after He had departed He would send another comforter.   So the comforter being sent by Jesus is not Jesus.    The word allos is simply reference to the function of the Holy Spirit.   The Holy Spirit would function in a manner similar to how Jesus functioned in the lives of the apostles yet in an even better way in some respects. 

Otherwise your rather bizarre take on this would basically have Jesus refering to Himself in the third person "He" as if he is a different person from Himself. 

And nowhere in John 14, 15 or 16 does Jesus ever indicate that He and the Holy Spirit are the same Person.  He clearly refers to the Holy Spirit is a person separate from Himself that He is sending to take over as our Comforter, teacher, etc.

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1 John 2:1 also reveals that Jesus is our “parakletos” (Comforter). John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7 above and 1 John 2:1 below are the only verses that use this Greek word which means “ADVOCATE and COMFORTER.” So the Greek text also reveals that our COMFORTER and Advocate is JESUS CHRIST the righteous!

“If any man sin, we have an advocate [parakletos] (Comforter) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” 1 John 2:1

 

Both of them serve in that function.   The Holy Spirit is our comforter, and Jesus is our advocate.  And you are misquoting I John 2:1.  The word is used of Jesus to refer to Him as our advocate, not our comforter.   You cannot plug both meanings into every usage of the word Parakletos.  That's not how it works.  It does not mean both comforter and advocate each time it is used. 

[Guest shiloh357]

9 hours ago, brakelite said:

Yet the entire concept of trinity as handed down through the creeds is that there are 3 distinct co-eternal co-equal beings forming one God. This idea is brought to people as God the Father, which title is repeated 13 times in the KJV...God the Son, which title is not found in the Bible at all, and God the Holy Spirit, which is not found either. Three distinct separate Gods which equal one God. Of course its a mystery. It was a mystery to Israel, that is why they reject it today, and why Christians find it so hard to evangelize Jews because of the idolatry factor in multiple gods. It was also a mystery to Jesus, who taught no such concept. He taught us to pray to His Father. Not once did He pray to the Holy Spirit, nor recommend it anywhere. Yet the Holy Spirit is a co-equal co-eternal God? It was also a mystery to the apostles.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are simply formulaic references to what the Bible demonstrates as true.  Those phrases are not in the Bible, but they reflect biblical truth in that we have three distinct Persons revealed in the Godhead and demonstrated in function if not in form. 

It is a mystery because it shows God as beyond our comprehension.   We have no point of reference for the Trinity in our human experience. 

The three members of the Godhead served in three different capacities and still do.   The Holy Spirit is our Comforter.   Jesus is in Heaven operating in the office of our High Priest and making intercession for us and maintaining the New Covenant cut in His blood.   The Father is still our most dread Sovereign and rules the universe.    Yet Jesus has equal authority as the Father because Jesus was exalted to His right hand and Jesus will be the judge of humanity in the Day of Judgment.   The Holy Spirit is still here on the earth and operating in the same authority as the Father and Son, but His purpose is to point us to Jesus, to convict us of sin and point us to the only way to the Father, who is Jesus.

That Jesus didn't pray to the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit being less than equal.   You're trying to apply fleshly, carnal reasoning to an issue that cannot be understood fully by us at this time due to the fact that we simply have not been given enough light on the matter.    You are trying to fill in the blanks with what makes sense to you.  But the Trinity doesn't make sense and isn't supposed to make sense. 

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Why not worship the Holy Spirit? Why does the Holy Spirit not know when Jesus is coming back? Why is it a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unforgivable but a blasphemy against the Father or Jesus forgivable? What happened to co-equality? Perhaps because it is NOT a third person/god as is made out to be?

That fundamentally demonstrates a colossal error in why it is unforgivable to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.   Jesus' enemies were irretrievably wicked and impenitent.  That's why it is unforgivable.   The person committing this sin does so with both eyes open because it is act of open rebellion and slander.   The heart of a person who can commit that sin will not repent and won't be forgiven because they seek no forgiveness.  They are completely and wholly given over to lawlessness.  It has nothing to do with equality in the Godhead.

But more to the point of your logic...  If one can be forgiven for blaspheming the Father and Jesus, but not the Holy Spirit, then it follows that they are not the same persons with the Holy Spirit.  Otherwise, blaspheming any member of the Godhead would be unforgivable.  

We don't worship the Holy Spirit, as that is not His purpose.  He is not here to be worshiped, but to help us worship.    Who said the Holy Spirit doesn't know when Jesus is coming back?

 

There are many names and phrases associated with the trinity doctrine but none are Biblical and hence none of them exist in Scripture.

[brakelite]

2 hours ago, Brittany said:

Ohh okay. I know that Jesus is worshipped in the New Testament, so I know He is God at least in some way. Otherwise He wouldn't allow people to worship Him. 

what does it mean when New Testament writers said "Glory to God the Father andthe Lord Jesus Christ"? Do "God" and "Lord" mean different things?

In one sense they are the same, in another, different. God the Father is Lord over all, the supreme God and ruler of the universe. His only begotten Son is also Lord, because it pleased the Father that in Jesus should dwell all the fullness of the Godhead. He "is made both Lord and Christ". Acts 2:36

So the Father, as the only eternal God, is Lord, but has given into the hands of His Son life,  all authority, and rule. Thus Jesus is Lord because it was granted Him of His Father. He is not Lord because He is a co-equal partner in any trinity. John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

That God is the fountain and source of immortality is plain from the statement of Paul. He speaks thus of God the Father: 'Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting; Amen.' 1 Tim. 6:16. This text is evidently designed to teach that the self existent God is the only being who, of himself, possesses this wonderful nature. Others may possess it as derived from him, but he alone is the fountain of immortality. "Our Lord Jesus Christ is the source of this life to us. 'For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.' John 5:26. Jesus the Son of God has the power and authority to give us eternal life because He received that life from His Father. 'As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.' John 6:57. The Father gives us this life in His Son. 'And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.' 1Jn 5:11,12.

 

[brakelite]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

 

Jesus is God, but did not inherit His Father's nature.  Jesus is the one true God.  The Father is the one true God.  The Holy Spirit is the one True God and they were that way from eternity past.   Jesus did not "inherit" a nature.   He has always been God by nature.   And Jesus always existed.  He is, as God the same age as the Father and operates in the same authority as the Father.   That is the ONLY correct way to look  at it.

That was the only way to look at it according to the papal apostates of the 4th century. That was the only way to look at it according to the decision of a pagan sun-worshiping emperor who murdered his own wife to sustain his power. But it isn't the only way to look at it. One could, if he was so disposed, to look at it as revealed in scripture. 1 ¶  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb.1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 ¶  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

1 Cor. 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24  Then cometh the end, when he (Jesus) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (the Father) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25  For he (Jesus) must reign, till he (the Father)hath put all enemies under his(Jesus) feet.
26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27  For he (the Father)  hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (the Father) saith all things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him.(Jesus)
28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (the Father) that put all things under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.
 

That God is the fountain and source of immortality is plain from the statement of Paul. He speaks thus of God the Father: 'Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting; Amen.' 1 Tim. 6:16. This text is evidently designed to teach that the self existent God is the only being who, of himself, possesses this wonderful nature. Others may possess it as derived from him, but he alone is the fountain of immortality. "Our Lord Jesus Christ is the source of this life to us. 'For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.' John 5:26. 'As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.' John 6:57. The Father gives us this life in His Son. 'And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.' 1Jn 5:11,12.

Show me one verse in scripture that reveals Jesus as being "the one true God", which if found, would completely contradict John 17:3. Good luck. Of course you are always entitled to believe that concept, but you would be doing so in full accordance to Roman Catholic tradition, and not sola scriptura. Align yourself with the Roman apostasy if you must, who in their catechisms describes the trinity doctrine as being the foundation doctrine of all her other doctrines, but in todays Protestant world, such a stand with Rome does not surprise me.

[Guest shiloh357]

3 hours ago, brakelite said:

That was the only way to look at it according to the papal apostates of the 4th century. That was the only way to look at it according to the decision of a pagan sun-worshiping emperor who murdered his own wife to sustain his power. But it isn't the only way to look at it.

Nothing I say has anything to do with the RCC.  I am taking the biblical view.    Jesus was preexistent with the Father and said so, Himself.  That means that Jesus was God.   John 1:1-3 says that Jesus, as the Word, preexistent with God, was God.   And it says that Jesus is the Creator, as it also does in Heb. 1:1-3 and Col. 1:15-18.  That is where I am deriving my theology.    You keep harking back to the RCC and that is a weak, canned response that I am sure you are used to throwing out at those who believe in the Trinity.

 

 

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That God is the fountain and source of immortality is plain from the statement of Paul. He speaks thus of God the Father: 'Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting; Amen.' 1 Tim. 6:16. This text is evidently designed to teach that the self existent God is the only being who, of himself, possesses this wonderful nature. Others may possess it as derived from him, but he alone is the fountain of immortality. "Our Lord Jesus Christ is the source of this life to us. 'For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.' John 5:26. 'As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.' John 6:57. The Father gives us this life in His Son. 'And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.' 1Jn 5:11,12.

There are things that were true about Jesus when He was on earth in His earthly ministry that are not true about Him now, since He has been exalted back to His original place.   Jesus, as a man, was submitted to the Father and at that time, Jesus could only give life to whom the Father directed. That is not the case now.   Jesus surrendered the prerogatives of deity, but not the attributes of deity, when was here on earth.   Jesus was still 100% God while also being  100% man.

 

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Show me one verse in scripture that reveals Jesus as being "the one true God", which if found, would completely contradict John 17:3.

That Jesus is the one true God doesn't contradict John 17:3 at all.   There is only one God.  Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.  The one true God isn't just the Father.    Jesus was praying to the Father in His humanity and modeling prayer for us.  Jesus wasn't diminishing His own deity, but simply showing how to pray.  

 

 

[OneLight]

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

As an adjective, deity doesn't mean separate God.  The Holy Spirit is not a separate deity (noun)  from either the Father or Jesus, just a separate Person.  God is one God, but three persons, something we have no point of reference for in human experience, which is why it is such a mystery to us.

 

38 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That Jesus is the one true God doesn't contradict John 17:3 at all.   There is only one God.  Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.  The one true God isn't just the Father.    Jesus was praying to the Father in His humanity and modeling prayer for us.  Jesus wasn't diminishing His own deity, but simply showing how to pray. 

I am confused in how you use the term deity.  In the first quote, you claim the Holy Spirit is not a separate deity, but in the last you claim Jesus is.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, OneLight said:

 

I am confused in how you use the term deity.  In the first quote, you claim the Holy Spirit is not a separate deity, but in the last you claim Jesus is.

No, I am not.  My point is that Jesus isn't denying He is God by praying calling God the Father "The one true God." 

[OneLight]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

No, I am not.  My point is that Jesus isn't denying He is God by praying calling God the Father "The one true God." 

No, you are not what?  I was asking why, in one instance, you deny the term deity, and in another, you use it for the same purpose I used it in my reply.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 minute ago, OneLight said:

No, you are not what?  I was asking why, in one instance, you deny the term deity, and in another, you use it for the same purpose I used it in my reply.

You didn't ask a question:  You said this:  " In the first quote, you claim the Holy Spirit is not a separate deity, but in the last you claim Jesus is."

My response is that I am not claiming that Jesus is a separate deity.  

I simply explained what I meant in my last response.  

[OneLight]

10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

You didn't ask a question:  You said this:  " In the first quote, you claim the Holy Spirit is not a separate deity, but in the last you claim Jesus is."

My response is that I am not claiming that Jesus is a separate deity.  

I simply explained what I meant in my last response.  

I understood your last sentence and agree.  My question wold of been "Why "In the first quote, you claim the Holy Spirit is not a separate deity, but in the last you claim Jesus is.""  I am trying to understand why you disagreed with the term "deity" when I used it, but promote it in your statement?