The Rapture of the Church

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think we will all be surprised. I believe close to 50% of the world population will suddenly disappear. It will be all those who are "in Christ," plus all the children under the age of accountability.

I have heard people speak about the age of accountability, but have never seen it in scripture. What evidence do you have for it?

[missmuffet]

4 minutes ago, JaniceR said:

I have heard people speak about the age of accountability, but have never seen it in scripture. What evidence do you have for it?

All children will go in the rapture of the Church. That will make it even more heart breaking if the parents are not saved.

Question: "Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies and young children when they die?"

Answer: The concept of the “age of accountability” is that children are not held accountable by God for their sins until they reach a certain age, and that if a child dies before reaching the “age of accountability,” that child will, by the grace and mercy of God, be granted entrance into heaven. Is the concept of an age of accountability biblical? Is there such a thing as an “age of innocence”?

Frequently lost in the discussion regarding the age of accountability is the fact that children, no matter how young, are not “innocent” in the sense of being sinless. The Bible tells us that, even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people, including infants and children, are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” David recognized that even at conception he was a sinner. The very sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam’s original sin.

Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. The only way God can be just and at the same time declare a person righteous is for that person to have received forgiveness by faith in Christ. Christ is the only way. John 14:6 records what Jesus said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me.” Also, Peter states in Acts 4:12, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Salvation is an individual choice.

What about babies and young children who never attain the ability to make this individual choice? The age of accountability is the concept that those who die before reaching the age of accountability are automatically saved by God’s grace and mercy. The age of accountability is the belief that God saves all those who die never having possessed the ability to make a decision for or against Christ. Thirteen is the most common age suggested for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ. Charles Spurgeon’s opinion was that “a child of five can as truly be saved and regenerated as an adult.”

With the above in mind, also consider this: Christ’s death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus’ death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ’s death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

Some see a link between the age of accountability and the covenant relationship between the nation of Israel and the LORD where no requirement was imposed on a male child to be included in the covenant other than circumcision, which was performed on the eighth day after his birth (Exodus 12:48–50; Leviticus 12:3).

The question arises, “Does the inclusive nature of the Old Covenant apply to the church?” On the day of Pentecost, Peter said, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself” (Acts 2:38–39, NAS). The word children here (teknon in Greek) means “child, daughter, son.” Acts 2:39 indicates that forgiveness of sins is available to one and all (cf. Acts 1:8), including future generations. It does not teach family or household salvation. The children of those who repented were also required to repent.

The one passage that seems to identify with this topic more than any other is 2 Samuel 12:21–23. The context of these verses is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that, because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded to this by grieving and praying for the child. But once the child was taken, David’s mourning ended. David’s servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” David’s response was, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” David’s response indicates that those who cannot believe are safe in the Lord. David said that he could go to the child but could not bring the child back to him. Also, and just as important, David seemed to be comforted by this knowledge. In other words, David seemed to be saying that he would see his baby son (in heaven), though he could not bring him back.

Although it is possible that God applies Christ’s payment for sin to those who cannot believe, the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. God’s applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His love and mercy. It is our position that God applies Christ’s payment for sin to babies and those who are mentally handicapped, since they are not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior, but again we cannot be dogmatic. Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever God does is always right and good, and He loves children even more than we do.

https://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

[Guest]

 

missmuffet, thanks for posting the article. I read it and felt it was balanced and fair. It is as I thought that there is no mention of age accountability in the Bible. As for the first part of your post concerning the rapture-I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, but respect your right to do so.

[missmuffet]

8 minutes ago, JaniceR said:

 

missmuffet, thanks for posting the article. I read it and felt it was balanced and fair. It is as I thought that there is no mention of age accountability in the Bible. As for the first part of your post concerning the rapture-I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, but respect your right to do so.

That is correct but the concept is in the Bible. Just as the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but their are many words that refer to the Holy Trinity. Thank you for your grace in accepting my pretribulation view. Many are not quite as gracious

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, JaniceR said:

I have heard people speak about the age of accountability, but have never seen it in scripture. What evidence do you have for it?

For starters, think about the generation that refused to enter in? All down to 20 years old died in the wilderness. 

Many people try to come up with a reason why children go to heaven. I am among them. I think God declares kids "innocent." The question is then, when does a child go from a child who are not accountable to a youth that is accountable?  Perhaps it is not an exact age but how mature they are.

There have been many people who and gone to heaven and lived to tell about and write books. Several of these people were taken to see the aborted babies. it seems God does not miss a one. He brings them all to heaven.  After all, the bible does tell us He is the God of spirits.

Numbers 27:16

Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

 

I believe babies are innocent. If we serve a fair God, He will take innocent babies to heaven.

 

Of course this gets into the old practice of baptizing babies. It was thought that because babies are born with the fallen human nature, they must be baptized so they can go to heaven - as if water baptism would do anything for a baby except make them wet!

Edited February 6, 2017 by iamlamad

[n2thelight]

On 1/26/2017 at 8:37 PM, missmuffet said:

Well I guess time will tell won't it? Do you think that those kind of thoughts will allow a person to deny the rapture of the Church when it actually happens before the seven year tribulation? They will be so focused on their belief that any such thing is impossible or deluded.

Let's do this ,when the rapture happens people are gonna want to know what happened.

Those left who come into the truth will say Christ came and raptured them away.

Would that be correct?

If so how do you explain the below verses?

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

Don't know what the above means to you,but for me it clearly states,if someone has to tell you Christ has come,He hasn't!!!!

Christ says he whom endures till the end

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

So when is the end?It can't be the rapture,so will someone tell me,when is the end?

 

 

[n2thelight]

You'll say you won't go through the trib,do you(rapturist)understand what the trib is?

If so would you mind explaining it to me?

Edited February 8, 2017 by n2thelight

[missmuffet]

32 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Let's do this ,when the rapture happens people are gonna want to know what happened.

Those left who come into the truth will say Christ came and raptured them away.

Would that be correct?

If so how do you explain the below verses?

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

Matthew 24:26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, He is in the desert;' go not forth: 'Behold, He is in the secret chambers;' believe it not."

Don't know what the above means to you,but for me it clearly states,if someone has to tell you Christ has come,He hasn't!!!!

Christ says he whom endures till the end

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

So when is the end?It can't be the rapture,so will someone tell me,when is the end?

 

 

The verses of Matthew above are not the rapture of the Church verses they are verses of the second coming. They are two different events. The rapture of the Church is imminent. It can happen at any time. Nothing else needs to happen for the rapture of the Church to occur. The second coming is after the seven year tribulation. Then after the seven year tribulation we go into the 1000 year millennium.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[n2thelight]

27 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

The verses of Matthew above are not the rapture of the Church verses they are verses of the second coming. They are two different events. The rapture of the Church is imminent. It can happen at any time. Nothing else needs to happen for the rapture of the Church to occur. The second coming is after the seven year tribulation. Then after the seven year tribulation we go into the 1000 year millennium.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

Show me one verse in scripture where Christ can come at any time.

Also are you saying Matt 24 was written to unbelievers?

Edited February 8, 2017 by n2thelight

[n2thelight]

Peter Knew that He Would Die before Jesus Returned

 

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. (John 21:18-19)

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. (2 Peter 1:14)

Imagine that we had the opportunity to talk with the Apostle Peter after Jesus had died, arisen from the dead, and ascended into heaven. Remember, Peter had been very close to Jesus. He was obviously very familiar with what Jesus said in chapters 24 and 25 of the Gospel of Matthew. But, in spite of those words of Jesus, if you had asked Peter, “Peter, do you think Jesus might return today?” Peter would have replied, “No. Not today. Because He showed me by what kind of death I should glorify him, when I am old. He will not return in my lifetime.” (Then, I suspect, Peter would have given us the explanation of the passages that may seem to teach imminency that you will read in this paper!)

 

Paul Knew that He Would Go to Rome before Jesus Returned

 

And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. (Acts 22:21)

And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. (Acts 23:11)

 

If we had asked Paul before he went to Rome if he thought Jesus would return today, Paul would have said, “No. Not today. He has showed me that I must first go to Rome to bear witness of Him.”

 

The Early Church Knew that They Must Take the Gospel to the World before Jesus Returned

 

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Acts 1:8)

 

If you had asked a Christian shortly after Jesus ascended into heaven if he or she was familiar with what Jesus had said that is recorded for us in Matthew chapters 24 and 25, they would almost certainly have said, “Of course!” If you had followed that up by saying, “Then you believe that Jesus could return today, right?” They would have said, “No. Not today. He told us that we must take the gospel to the uttermost part of the earth first!”

 

Jesus Taught His Disciples Not to Expect His Imminent Return

 

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. (Luke 19:11-15)

 

While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept... After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. (Matthew 25:5, 19)

These disciples believed (and hoped) that Jesus was soon going to set up His kingdom on the earth. In Luke 19, Jesus corrects them. He compares Himself to a nobleman that went into a “far country” and gave instructions to “occupy” until he returned. He proceeds to remind them that they will have responsibilities to fulfill in terms of stewardship before He returns. In fact, inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luke tells us that the very reason Jesus taught this parable was because some people “thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.”

And even in Matthew 25 Jesus compares His coming to that of a bridegroom who “tarries” and who returns “after a long time.” He did not intend for them (or us) to expect an imminent return, but instead to plan on an extended time of serving Him on earth before His return.

 

Christians in Thessalonica Erred in Assuming the Return of Christ was Imminent

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

Some of the Thessalonian Christians had evidently become focused on the possibility that they were already far into the tribulation and that Jesus could return soon. It is reasonable for a suffering church to think that perhaps they are going through the last great tribulation. And certainly the Thessalonians were a suffering church (1 Thessalonians 2:14; 3:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-6). But Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, knew that they were being premature. He wanted them to learn to “stand fast” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and to be “established in good words and works” (2 Thessalonians 2:17). He knew that they had work to do before the Lord returned. So he reminded them that there were some things that would occur before the Lord returned (viz., the revelation of the Antichrist and the great apostasy).

If the return of Christ were considered to be imminent, Paul would surely have reminded them that they and he would be raptured before the events described in these verses occurred.

 

What about References to His Coming as a “Thief in the Night?”

           

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (Matthew 24:43)

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Revelation 16:15)

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

Pretribulationalists usually assume that the idea of Jesus coming as a “thief” necessarily means that His coming is imminent. This is not the case. Let’s consider these passages one at a time.

Matthew 24:43

The verse from Matthew 24 must be taken in context. In fact, in Matthew 24 Jesus is teaching against the idea of imminency. He is reminding His disciples that before He returns, there will be the time of the great tribulation. Only one return is mentioned in Matthew 24—a posttribulational return. In verse 21, Jesus warns, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Then, in verse 29 He proceeds to relate what will happen “Immediately after the tribulation of those days.” And in verse 30 He says, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” This is obviously a posttribulational return. And there is no mention of any return or rapture before the tribulation given in Matthew 24. (Which is interesting in and of itself, since this is the longest discussion given by Jesus of the end times.)When Jesus warns that the church should watch for His coming “as a thief” it is in the context of being aware of the fact that His coming is near, after the events of the great tribulation! (Verse 33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.)

A close reading of Matthew 24 makes it clear that we are first to watch for the signs associated with the time of great tribulation, then expect an imminent return.

 

Revelation 16:15

The all important Bible interpretation principle of “context” applies to Revelation 16:15 as well. As you read the book of Revelation from beginning to end, you find a description (with powerful symbolic imagery) of the great tribulation, followed by the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, followed by the time of God’s wrath. God’s wrath is described in the sounding of the trumpets, followed by a description in terms of the bowls of His wrath. Near the very end of all these things, just before the last bowl of wrath is described, He warns us that He is coming as a “thief.”

Clearly, the warning is parallel to the warning of Matthew 24. Christians are to watch for the signs accompanied by the great tribulation, then be on the alert for our Lord’s appearing.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4

This passage contains an interesting comment in verse four. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” It fits perfectly with what we have seen in Matthew 24 and Revelation 16. The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. But Christians who understand the signs the Lord has given us (related to the time of the great tribulation) can be prepared, so that they are not overtaken as a thief.

It is also important to consider very carefully the meaning of the phrase, “The Day of the Lord.” The Day of the Lord is a very specific Biblical prophetic phrase with a definite meaning. The “Day of the Lord” does not begin until the after great tribulation has passed. You can study the Biblical details of that issue in my general paper on posttribulationalism. The point, of course, is that Christians who take the Lord’s prophecies about the end times seriously will not be surprised when the Day of the Lord comes. He has left us signs so that it is not necessary “that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

 

2 Peter 3:10

This passage also references “The Day of the Lord.” See the comments above.

It should also be clear that if even one passage that refers to Jesus “coming as a thief” does not demand an assumption of imminency, that none of the others would necessarily demand that assumption. 

 

Does Our Lord’s Command to “Watch” Require that We Accept Imminency?

 

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only... Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 24:34-36, 42-44)

The same comments that explain the Matthew 24:43 reference to the “thief” (see above) relate to these comments.

Our Lord gave us many signs to indicate the general time of His return. He delineates these in Matthew 24 and other passages. However, He warns us that the specific time (“day and hour,” “watch of the night,”) of His coming cannot be known.

In effect, the Lord says, “Be alert. Watch for these things to happen. When you see them happen you can know that the My return is getting close. But you will not know the exact time of My return. So when you see these things begin to happen, be ready!”

http://www.aboundingjoy.com/Bible studies/imminency.htm