The Abomination of Desolation

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, I won't even waste my time answering.  One day you will find out that John's chronology is perfect and when these things begin to happen (most of Revelation is future) they will happen in the same order that John wrote them, with the exception of parentheses.

Until you can show absolute scriptural proof that Revelation was written in the wrong order, there is no point in continuing.  I have written many times:

Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Just wait, and your "mix it up & rearrange" theory will be proven wrong.

Did you just overlook the story of the rich man and Lazarus, how they talked across this great gulf - and heard each other? Don't even try to tell me they had physical bodies! They were in spirit form, having both died.

I am always amazed at people coming up with "comings" of our Lord in various places in Revelation. It is very plain where John places His coming: and that is in chapter 19. How many more times do you believe He will come?

 

 

You missed this definition of soul: 

the soul

    the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

    the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

    the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

 

By the way: does God breathe?

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Of course "most of Revelation is future!" When have you heard me say otherwise? Most who think to follow Revelation have their OWN agenda to work in! Therefore, they are NOT LISTENING to Yochanan (John)! No rearrangement of Revelation is necessary. My view of Revelation is only a "rearrangement" to you if it doesn't fit with YOUR scenario!

No, I did not "just overlook the story of the rich man and Lazarus, how they talked across this great gulf - and heard each other?" This story is in the RESURRECTION (probably the second resurrection). They "TALKED" across this great gulf? So, they had vocal cords (or vocal folds). "HEARD" each other? So, they had ears to hear! They also existed in air for the sound to travel. "Finger?" "Tongue?" "Tormented in these flames?" That's a "spirit form?!" Really?! 

No, this rich man HAS his body back (or rather, is resurrected as an air-breathing body)! So, why shouldn't I tell you the truth? They DO "have physical bodies!" They both died, but AWOKE to MUCH different resurrections!

And, YOU missed the BIBLICAL definition of "soul":

First, look at the definitions according to Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Aramaic Languages:

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Now, look at Genesis 2:7 CAREFULLY!

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man (not "his body"!) of the dust of the ground, and breathed ("puffed") into his nostrils the breath ("puff") of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: l-nefesh chayaah = "to a living air-breather!").
KJV

So, THAT'S the truth! Now, what you do with that truth is up to you, but at least you've been shown it at least once. When a person "gives up the ghost" or "gives up the spirit" - when one "breathes his (or her) last," so to speak - he (or she) CEASES to be a "soul"; that is, an "air-breather," and he (or she) dies. One doesn't go to "heaven" or to "hell" when they die. As an unbreathing corpse, one goes to the grave and awaits the Resurrection. This is why the Resurrection is so important!

Now, the Resurrection is an ACT OF CREATION that only God can perform; and, HE is the only One who knows what we were precisely to re-create us exactly as He remembers us! So, it doesn't matter what happens to us as a body. We can be cremated to ash, buried and decay to dust, or committed to the depths of the sea and become fish food. When it is time for the Resurrection, He will create us PRECISELY as He wants to create us, as He perfectly remembers us.

From the perspective of the deceased, he or she falls asleep in death, and the next moment wakes up in the Resurrection! Some will awaken prior to the Millennium - those who are martyred for the Messiah's cause and those who are part of the First Resurrection. The rest will awaken after the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment, to be judged and either allowed within the New Jerusalem (where the Pardec/Paradeisos/Paradise/Park is) in the process of final approach to the New Earth or taken and thrown into the Lake of Burning Sulfur.

"Does God breathe?" God is a SPIRIT, Hebrew word "RUWACH" meaning a "WIND!" Does He "breathe?" He "PUFFED" into the man's nostrils and the man became a living air-breather! Everyone says that Yeshua` is the Son of God, and some say that this means He is God like the Father is God. Does Yeshua` breathe?

John 20:19-22
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
KJV

So, in His resurrected body, He BREATHED on His disciples.

"Heaven" just means "the sky," and "hell" means either "the grave" (literally, the "UNSEEN"), or "the valley of Hinnowm" where the kings of Israel sat in judgment just outside Jerusalem. The "third heaven" to which Paul referred in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is the same as the "new heavens" to which Peter referred in 2 Peter 3:13 and the "new heaven" to which John referred in Revelation 21:1-4.

Peter gave us the answer:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (This is the first heavens and first earth, the skies and the earth before the Flood.)
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (THE FLOOD)
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This is the second heavens and the second earth, the skies and the earth after the Flood and before the Fire. By the way, the day of judgment and perdition [sentencing] of ungodly men is the same as the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20.)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (THE FIRE)
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (This is the third heavens and the third earth, the skies and the earth after the Fire. It's the same as the New Heaven [Sky] and the New Earth of Revelation 21. THAT'S the "third heaven!")
KJV

It's not a "third heaven" spatially; that is, as though numbered upward from the ground. You know, "1st heaven = of clouds," "2nd heaven = of stars," and "3rd heaven = God's abode." It's a "third sky" SEQUENTIALLY; that is, as though numbered through TIME!

I truly do hope this helps you sort all this out.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Of course "most of Revelation is future!" When have you heard me say otherwise? Most who think to follow Revelation have their OWN agenda to work in! Therefore, they are NOT LISTENING to Yochanan (John)! No rearrangement of Revelation is necessary. My view of Revelation is only a "rearrangement" to you if it doesn't fit with YOUR scenario!

No, I did not "just overlook the story of the rich man and Lazarus, how they talked across this great gulf - and heard each other?" This story is in the RESURRECTION (probably the second resurrection). They "TALKED" across this great gulf? So, they had vocal cords (or vocal folds). "HEARD" each other? So, they had ears to hear! They also existed in air for the sound to travel. "Finger?" "Tongue?" "Tormented in these flames?" That's a "spirit form?!" Really?! 

No, this rich man HAS his body back (or rather, is resurrected as an air-breathing body)! So, why shouldn't I tell you the truth? They DO "have physical bodies!" They both died, but AWOKE to MUCH different resurrections!

And, YOU missed the BIBLICAL definition of "soul":

First, look at the definitions according to Strong's Dictionary of the Hebrew and Aramaic Languages:

OT:5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature,  dead (-ly), desire,  [dis-] contented,  fish, ghost,  greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath,  jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul,  tablet, they, thing, (X she) will,  would have it.

OT:5314 naafash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Now, look at Genesis 2:7 CAREFULLY!

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man (not "his body"!) of the dust of the ground, and breathed ("puffed") into his nostrils the breath ("puff") of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: l-nefesh chayaah = "to a living air-breather!").
KJV

So, THAT'S the truth! Now, what you do with that truth is up to you, but at least you've been shown it at least once. When a person "gives up the ghost" or "gives up the spirit" - when one "breathes his (or her) last," so to speak - he (or she) CEASES to be a "soul"; that is, an "air-breather," and he (or she) dies. One doesn't go to "heaven" or to "hell" when they die. As an unbreathing corpse, one goes to the grave and awaits the Resurrection. This is why the Resurrection is so important!

Now, the Resurrection is an ACT OF CREATION that only God can perform; and, HE is the only One who knows what we were precisely to re-create us exactly as He remembers us! So, it doesn't matter what happens to us as a body. We can be cremated to ash, buried and decay to dust, or committed to the depths of the sea and become fish food. When it is time for the Resurrection, He will create us PRECISELY as He wants to create us, as He perfectly remembers us.

From the perspective of the deceased, he or she falls asleep in death, and the next moment wakes up in the Resurrection! Some will awaken prior to the Millennium - those who are martyred for the Messiah's cause and those who are part of the First Resurrection. The rest will awaken after the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment, to be judged and either allowed within the New Jerusalem (where the Pardec/Paradeisos/Paradise/Park is) in the process of final approach to the New Earth or taken and thrown into the Lake of Burning Sulfur.

"Does God breathe?" God is a SPIRIT, Hebrew word "RUWACH" meaning a "WIND!" Does He "breathe?" He "PUFFED" into the man's nostrils and the man became a living air-breather! Everyone says that Yeshua` is the Son of God, and some say that this means He is God like the Father is God. Does Yeshua` breathe?

John 20:19-22
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
KJV

So, in His resurrected body, He BREATHED on His disciples.

"Heaven" just means "the sky," and "hell" means either "the grave" (literally, the "UNSEEN"), or "the valley of Hinnowm" where the kings of Israel sat in judgment just outside Jerusalem. The "third heaven" to which Paul referred in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is the same as the "new heavens" to which Peter referred in 2 Peter 3:13 and the "new heaven" to which John referred in Revelation 21:1-4.

Peter gave us the answer:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (This is the first heavens and first earth, the skies and the earth before the Flood.)
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (THE FLOOD)
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This is the second heavens and the second earth, the skies and the earth after the Flood and before the Fire. By the way, the day of judgment and perdition [sentencing] of ungodly men is the same as the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20.)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (THE FIRE)
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (This is the third heavens and the third earth, the skies and the earth after the Fire. It's the same as the New Heaven [Sky] and the New Earth of Revelation 21. THAT'S the "third heaven!")
KJV

It's not a "third heaven" spatially; that is, as though numbered upward from the ground. You know, "1st heaven = of clouds," "2nd heaven = of stars," and "3rd heaven = God's abode." It's a "third sky" SEQUENTIALLY; that is, as though numbered through TIME!

I truly do hope this helps you sort all this out.

It is so amazing how people read into scripture something that will fit their theories!

^{Luke 16:22} And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

²³ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Sorry, NO RESURRECTION here: they JUST DIED. So you just change scripture to fit your theory. Sorry, but I will not do that. I form doctrine that FITS.

" The two witnesses (Greek: martusin, also translated "martyrs") are just two of the 144,000 who spread the good news about the Kingdom. "

Sorry, WRONG AGAIN! You are changing scripture to fit a theory. Why would you do that?  The truth is, there is NO CONNECTION between the two witnesses (probably Enoch and Elijah) and the 144,000 except they are all descended from Jacob.  The 144,000 are sealed before the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, while the two witnesses will not show up on earth until just days before the midpoint of the week.

Regarding the trumpet judgments mentioned in chapters 8 and 9, I have no problem because the Messiah returns in chapter 6, ....

Sorry, WRONG AGAIN!  Messiah returns in chapter 19. There IS NO COMING in chapter 6. NONE. Of course, you can just ad lib a coming since John did not write one. That would fit your SOP.

The First Resurrection is seen by Revelation 6:9-11. These "souls" under (or at the foot of) the altar were just that: "SOULS" (Greek: "PSUCHAS") or "AIR-BREATHERS!" This is NOT "a scene in Heaven," as is frequently taught! This is why definitions are SO VERY IMPORTANT! These people "already have their bodies," or rather, they are living and breathing souls (which is a bit redundant) once again. Consider:

This is, of course, utter nonsense.

3 John 1:2

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

A "breath" can neither prosper or not prosper. But mind, will, and emotions can prosper. Note the difference between "thou" (the person) and something the person has: mind, will, etc.

 

2 Peter 2:14

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

A "breath" cannot be either stable or unstable. In this case "soul" does not mean air breather: it means mind, emotions, affections: those areas that can be unstable.

2 Peter 2:8

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Notice "his" as the person, and "soul" as something this "his" possesses: mind, will, emotions, affections: intellect.

1 Peter 2:11

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Sin wars against our mind, our will, our emotions. What does Paul say: that we take captive every THOUGHT.

1 Peter 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Notice, it is NOT the person that gets purified, it is the SOUL of the person: note Peter's use of YOUR "soul." A soul is something we possess: mind, intellect, emotions, etc.

1 Peter 1:9

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Again it is YOUR soul: something that "your" possesses.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The spirit and the soul of a human are tied very tightly together. Only the word of God can separate. Each human spirit possesses a soul, which is the mind, will, emotions, and affections.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A human is a triune being, just as God is a triune being: we are created IN HIS IMAGE. we ARE a spirit being, we possess a soul, meaning we possess intellect, feelings, emotions and affections. Our soul has a WILL. The spirit with the soul LIVES in a flesh and blood body.

The point is, "soul" can be used differently in different passages. We have to read the context to know what the true meaning is, since it can be different.

When John wrote of the souls under the altar, the meaning is, they are martyrs, only there in spirit form without their bodies. It is NOT TIME YET for resurrection day. (Again you show us that you have no concept of John's chronology.)  They are church age martyrs. WE ARE IN the church age. Resurrection has not happened yet! NO ONE of the New Testament church except our Lord has received a resurrection body. Therefore, your theory is WRONG: spirits can certainly talk. FACT: demons talk all the time. They are spirits. FACT: Abraham could talk, and the rich man could talk, and they had JUST DIED: again, no resurrection yet. The day of resurrection is STILL IN FRONT OF US.

This is NOT "a scene in Heaven,"

You are rewriting scripture again to fit your theory! WRONG! John was in heaven. The altar is in heaven. They are under the altar.  By the way, they are told they must wait for the others who will be martyred to join them: PROOF the resurrection has not happened.

One doesn't go to "heaven" or to "hell" when they die

WRONG AGAIN!  Go back and read the rich man and Lazarus. Read Paul: absent with the body, present with the Lord.

I quit! You are so full of false doctrine, it is a waste of my time. The worst part of this is, YOU THINK you know, when in fact, you don't.

I truly do hope this helps you sort all this out.

You have GOT to be kidding - though I know you are not.  Sorry, I have no desire to learn fiction.

 

[iamlamad]

15 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

I believe many miss this because they don't see it. The Two Witness preach 1260 days. When they are killed, 1260 days later Jesus returns. 1260 X 2 = 42 months = 7 years (of 30-day months). No one can get to the temple because of them, that is, until they are killed by the antichrist. So the first thing is, a new temple or tabernacle, then the Two Witnesses, then their deaths, then the desolation spoken by Daniel and Jesus, and then the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses, then Jesus return 1260 days after their death. It all fits in nicely actually. I hope this helps your search.

Sorry, but WRONG. While they are testifying, the temple is being trampled, the woman is fleeing, the woman is fed and protected, and the Beast is using His authority. All of these start near the midpoint and go to the END of the week.  So the two witnesses will die just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. How long after the end of the week before Jesus comes? We don't know, we only know "immediately after."

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Abdicate said:

I believe many miss this because they don't see it. The Two Witness preach 1260 days. When they are killed, 1260 days later Jesus returns. 1260 X 2 = 42 months = 7 years (of 30-day months). No one can get to the temple because of them, that is, until they are killed by the antichrist. So the first thing is, a new temple or tabernacle, then the Two Witnesses, then their deaths, then the desolation spoken by Daniel and Jesus, and then the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses, then Jesus return 1260 days after their death. It all fits in nicely actually. I hope this helps your search.

Shabbat shalom, Abdicate.

Sorry, but one can often make this simple mistake: The desolation spoken by Daniel and Yeshua` was in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! I'll stop there for now.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

If this all starts at the mid point then who are the following?

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

arnt you meant to be raptured before all of this?

Did you notice the KJV word, "remnant?" This means those "left over" from some previous event. The rapture will indeed take place before this, but millions who call themselves "Christian" will be left behind, and more millions will turn to God after the rapture.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

When you fall asleep and wake up the next morning it feels like minutes. 

When you die you have no concept of time, its like a blink of an eye.

The discriptions of Lazarus being carried by angels

the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. 

Is exactly what is discribed in a resurrection.

Your intolerance of actually listening to people is glaring.

Sorry, but soul sleep is false doctrine. You can continue in false doctrine if you wish. If one would only READ, with no preconceived glasses, the story of the rich man and Lazarus would eliminate such false doctrine. Perhaps you need to look up "resurrection." It is a dead BODY rising up. Sorry, but both the rich man and Lazarus' BODY was buried. This story is about their SPIRIT AND SOUL.

that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

You do understand, burial was the norm back then? Did you note the wording: "the beggar died and was carried..."

It is astounding how you can ad lib a resurrection to fit your theories!  Sorry, no resurrection here. It is one more of your figments.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

You not understanding this parable

In John 8:52 "Abraham is dead" -- Notice: Abraham was not up in heaven, but dead, in the days of  Christ!

This parable states that Lazarus died and was carried to Abraham's bosom.  

What exactly is a bosom? A dictionary will tell you bosom is the breast of a human being. However Abraham can not be in his new body because Abraham was dead in the days of Christ when Christ taught this parable.

Further conformation Christ told the Pharisees they would see Abraham in the Kingdom because Abraham, now dead, will be RESURRECTED from the dead (Luke 13:28).

So what is meant by bososm

Notice Lazarus is pictured here   receiving salvation, by becoming a Christ's follower or disciple. 

Notice "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed (children), and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29).

God gave Abraham a promise and his children will become heirs of it. That promise is the RESSURECTION and the LAND OF THE PROMISE called ISRAEL 

Israel is the bossom. 

In Matthew 24:31 we read that CHRIST shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds" -- out of their graves in a RESURRECTION.

Just like you see Lazarus being carried by angels 

Ezekiel 37:21

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelite [like Lazarus] out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land [Abrahams bossom = Israel]

Before Christ rose from the dead, all departed spirits went to Hades (Hebrew: sheol).  That was a place DEEP inside the earth. As the story tells, there was a great gulf fixed between where Abraham was and where the damned were. The point is, they were BOTH deep in the earth. All human spirits were trapped in hades until Jesus rose from the death. It is written that He took captivity captive: He took all the righteous up to heaven at that point. And a FEW of the elders received resurrection bodies as recorded in Matthew 27. "Abraham's Bosom" was only a name for paradise or the righteous side of hades.  it is empty now. Those saints are in heaven now.

When Jesus said, "this day you will be with me in paradise" He was NOT going up, but DOWN into the belly of the earth.

Eph 4: ⁹ Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Points to ponder in forming doctrine:

They could SEE each other.

They could HEAR each other.

One was in torment in flames, the other was not.

One needed water desperately, the other did not.

Neither was in any kind of "soul sleep." That is not scriptural.

No need to argue these points: there is very little scripture to argue over.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Here I was told the church age ended.

Did people come to God BEFORE the church age?

Then why would that be prevented after the church age?

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is so amazing how people read into scripture something that will fit their theories!

^{Luke 16:22} And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

²³ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Sorry, NO RESURRECTION here: they JUST DIED. So you just change scripture to fit your theory. Sorry, but I will not do that. I form doctrine that FITS.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but "inchrist" is right. The words "was carried by the aggeloi into Avraham's haven" ARE the words that describe the process of Resurrection. That one can't see it that way is because of all the teaching and sermons one has heard about these verses (and the obstinance and tenacity to cling onto a particular viewpoint because of fear in the "unknown" and the reluctance to release one's grip and venture off into that "unknown"), and that's okay. I understand how that can be; I lived with it for some thirty-odd years myself. However, for Lazarus (Elezar) to be "carried" anywhere suggests SOLIDITY, not some disembodied spirit! How do you "bottle a wind?" How can the rich man "lift up his eyes," when his "eyes" are back in his BODY?! ("Just a minute; I've gotta go dig them up....")

(And as an aside note, this is how subtle our speech can be: the rich man doesn't "HAVE a body." He IS a body! What we say and how we say it can often influence what we believe.)

You accused me of "changing scripture to fit my theory," and then said, "Sorry, but I will not do that." Are you so sure you didn't?

The rich man "was buried" after he "died." His BODY was not buried; HE was! You're not suggesting that he didn't go to "hell" until AFTER he was buried, even though he was already dead, are you? And yet, THAT is the order that these Scriptures present here! Aren't you "changing scripture to fit your theory" to say that "[his body] was buried and in hell [his soul] lifted up his eyes?"

You're just not giving me a fair shake to listen carefully to the Scriptures. See, to allow oneself to fail is the first step to growth. When one sees that he or she may have made a mistake frees one to admit he or she may be wrong. It's that first "chink in the armor" that begins the process of softening the hard clay so it can be molded.

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

" The two witnesses (Greek: martusin, also translated "martyrs") are just two of the 144,000 who spread the good news about the Kingdom. "

Sorry, WRONG AGAIN! You are changing scripture to fit a theory. Why would you do that?  The truth is, there is NO CONNECTION between the two witnesses (probably Enoch and Elijah) and the 144,000 except they are all descended from Jacob.  The 144,000 are sealed before the 70th week begins with the 7th seal, while the two witnesses will not show up on earth until just days before the midpoint of the week.

Oh, really? How did you arrive at such a lofty position to DICTATE when the 70th Seven begins? The 70th Seven began when Yeshua` was baptized and His offer of the Kingdom to Israel was first given 3.5 years before His death and resurrection. You've got to remember the six purposes for the 70 Sevens. The 70th Seven will conclude when He returns and offers the Kingdom to Israel again, this time being accepted out of sheer necessity! "If you won't save us now, there'll be no one left to save! Please, HELP!" (That's what "howshiy`aah naa'" or "hosanna" means, "Save us NOW!")

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Regarding the trumpet judgments mentioned in chapters 8 and 9, I have no problem because the Messiah returns in chapter 6, ....

Sorry, WRONG AGAIN!  Messiah returns in chapter 19. There IS NO COMING in chapter 6. NONE. Of course, you can just ad lib a coming since John did not write one. That would fit your SOP.

No, nothing of the sort. Did you not think to pay attention to the words of the Messiah in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

And what do we read in Revelation 6?

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

"The wrath of the Lamb?" How is it possible for them to know it's HIS wrath, if He has not returned? Are they just assuming this is true? OR, which is more likely, did they WATCH HIM COME?

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The First Resurrection is seen by Revelation 6:9-11. These "souls" under (or at the foot of) the altar were just that: "SOULS" (Greek: "PSUCHAS") or "AIR-BREATHERS!" This is NOT "a scene in Heaven," as is frequently taught! This is why definitions are SO VERY IMPORTANT! These people "already have their bodies," or rather, they are living and breathing souls (which is a bit redundant) once again. Consider:

This is, of course, utter nonsense.

Or, so you HOPE! However, it makes too much sense to ignore. So, it's nagging at the back of your mind, "Could it be?" And, the answer is, "Yes, it's true."

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

3 John 1:2

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

A "breath" can neither prosper or not prosper. But mind, will, and emotions can prosper. Note the difference between "thou" (the person) and something the person has: mind, will, etc.

 

 

 

2 Peter 2:14

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

A "breath" cannot be either stable or unstable. In this case "soul" does not mean air breather: it means mind, emotions, affections: those areas that can be unstable.

2 Peter 2:8

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Notice "his" as the person, and "soul" as something this "his" possesses: mind, will, emotions, affections: intellect.

1 Peter 2:11

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Sin wars against our mind, our will, our emotions. What does Paul say: that we take captive every THOUGHT.

1 Peter 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Notice, it is NOT the person that gets purified, it is the SOUL of the person: note Peter's use of YOUR "soul." A soul is something we possess: mind, intellect, emotions, etc.

1 Peter 1:9

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Again it is YOUR soul: something that "your" possesses.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The spirit and the soul of a human are tied very tightly together. Only the word of God can separate. Each human spirit possesses a soul, which is the mind, will, emotions, and affections.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A human is a triune being, just as God is a triune being: we are created IN HIS IMAGE. we ARE a spirit being, we possess a soul, meaning we possess intellect, feelings, emotions and affections. Our soul has a WILL. The spirit with the soul LIVES in a flesh and blood body.

The point is, "soul" can be used differently in different passages. We have to read the context to know what the true meaning is, since it can be different.

When John wrote of the souls under the altar, the meaning is, they are martyrs, only there in spirit form without their bodies. It is NOT TIME YET for resurrection day. (Again you show us that you have no concept of John's chronology.)  They are church age martyrs. WE ARE IN the church age. Resurrection has not happened yet! NO ONE of the New Testament church except our Lord has received a resurrection body. Therefore, your theory is WRONG: spirits can certainly talk. FACT: demons talk all the time. They are spirits. FACT: Abraham could talk, and the rich man could talk, and they had JUST DIED: again, no resurrection yet. The day of resurrection is STILL IN FRONT OF US.

This is NOT "a scene in Heaven,"

You are rewriting scripture again to fit your theory! WRONG! John was in heaven. The altar is in heaven. They are under the altar.  By the way, they are told they must wait for the others who will be martyred to join them: PROOF the resurrection has not happened.

One doesn't go to "heaven" or to "hell" when they die

WRONG AGAIN!  Go back and read the rich man and Lazarus. Read Paul: absent with the body, present with the Lord.

I quit! You are so full of false doctrine, it is a waste of my time. The worst part of this is, YOU THINK you know, when in fact, you don't.

I truly do hope this helps you sort all this out.

You have GOT to be kidding - though I know you are not.  Sorry, I have no desire to learn fiction.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

Well, I disagree. Where's the Two Witnesses? If you want to know how it all ends, read Gen 8 to Gen 1. 

LOL! Am I supposed to read eight chapters BACKWARDS?! You want to try that again?