The Abomination of Desolation

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Serving said:

Glad you realised what you were saying before was just plain wrong (not so simple after all huh?), I wondered what you were on about because there are literal waters above the waters as stated in Genesis.

3:1        It came to pass, when Enoch had told his sons, that the angels took him on to their wings and bore him on to the FIRST HEAVEN and placed him on the clouds.  And there I looked and again I looked higher, and saw the ether, and they placed me on the first heaven and showed me a very great Sea, greater than the earthly sea  (end of chapter)

Did you notice that Enoch was taken to TWO positions in that same passage?

First he was taken to the clouds, THEN he was taken AGAIN and placed ON top of the first heaven to look DOWN at those clouds he was originally taken to.

Did you notice the ether that Enoch was looking UP at FROM his position? The (a)ether is the old word for what we call space today (there is more to the ether than that but that is what it basically is) .. and the great sea is obviously ABOVE the ether.

These ARE physical things Enoch was describing btw, be careful not to spiritualize everything and throw out the literal .. very dangerous .. that's what gnostics do.

 

Serving

Well I realised and corrected myself on here for all to see.  I can't do any better than that.

I just had to read it over again.

Have you ever done that?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

For the same reason they couldn't enter the Tabernacle or the Temple at certain times: It was the WEIGHT OF HIS GLORY - KaVowd! So, when we read ... it's the same scenario!

Good answer in a way, I hadn't connected the aspect of God's Glory in the smoke. 

I was wondering about the interplay between that and the time of the seven Bowl Judgments.

Why are those two connected in time?

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Sister said:

Hello Retrobyter

I considered the waters above that flooded the earth, but Levi was after the flood.

There is so much about our earth that man does not know about, and the ones that do know like to block us from the truth.

I find it hard to believe anything that comes out of NASA now.

God endorsed Enoch.  He was translated and taken up to heaven.  My spirit is more drawn to what Enoch says than NASA.  NASA is of the world.  The world is against God.  They don't want us to believe that God made earth special and unique, and they don't want us to know that they've been lying to us about many things.

Shalom, Sister.

Facts are facts. Science proper has determined the various compositions and temperatures at the different levels of the atmosphere. Much of this was discovered by weather balloon! It doesn't have to be "of the world," which is different than "of the earth." Good science consists of observation and experimentation. If these two processes can't be done, then it is not true "science." Therefore, the Theory of Evolution is not true science, because they cannot observe evolution going on today nor can they perform experiments to demonstrate evolution. Of course, the "Theory of Creation" has the same problems. Therefore, BOTH of these "theories" are based upon FAITH.

God did NOT endorse THIS "Enoch." The pseudo-Enoch who wrote the Book of the Secrets of Enoch was NOT the one who was the "seventh from Adam." He wrote his material MILLENNIA after the original Enoch! The Book of Enoch is Hebrew FICTION!

The Testament of Levi (Leviy), which is supposed to be from the dying commands of the Patriarchs, is not attested in Genesis or in 1 Chronicles. Furthermore, we read this from Wikipedia:

Quote

 

The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs is a constituent of the apocryphal scriptures connected with the Bible. It is a pseudepigraphical work comprising the dying commands of the twelve sons of Jacob. It is part of the Oskan Armenian Orthodox Bible of 1666. Fragments of similar writings were found at Qumran, but opinions are divided as to whether these are the same texts. It is considered apocalyptic literature.

The Testaments were written in Hebrew or Greek, and reached their final form in the 2nd century CE. In the 13th century they were introduced into the West through the agency of Robert Grosseteste, Bishop of Lincoln, whose Latin translation of the work immediately became popular. He believed that it was a genuine work of the twelve sons of Jacob, and that the Christian interpolations were a genuine product of Jewish prophecy; he accused Jews of concealing the Testaments "on account of the prophecies of the Saviour contained in them."

With the critical methods of the 16th century, Grosseteste's view of the Testaments was rejected, and the book was disparaged as a mere Christian forgery for nearly four centuries. Presently, scholarly opinions are still divided as to whether it is an originally Jewish document that has been retouched by Christians, or a Christian document written originally in Greek but based on some earlier Semitic-language material.[1] Scholarship tends to focus on this book as a Christian work, whether or not it has a Jewish predecessor (Vorlage).

 

The author or authors did not satisfy the canon of Scripture, and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs ... "reached their final form in the 2nd century CE (Common Era, i.e., A.D.)." The fact that there is question about the authorship of these documents simply adds to the fact that God did NOT support these writings. While they were treatises against moral issues, they were more probably Christian works that attacked these issues under the FICTIONAL GUISE of being writings from the patriarchs.

The bottom line is this: Don't trust your information to be from apocryphal works; trust your information to be from the Bible, God's Word. You really don't have proof that these apocryphal works have any credibility!

So, when they speak of the unknown, such as the misappropriation of the word "heaven," don't take their conclusions to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

[Retrobyter]

On 3/5/2017 at 6:11 AM, Sister said:

iamlamad

I am still trying to understand it myself and definitely not an expert on the matter. 

We know Enoch was taken up in the spirit to heaven.  Enoch was 7th from Adam, before the flood, and he saw many things, even the end, the coming of the Lord.  He even saw beyond that.

It's always nice to hear stories from other peoples experiences, but I would compare it to Enoch's writings and what he saw and see if they match.  Otherwise there is nothing to compare it to, and we know the enemy can give visions also, but it would not be according to the truth.

Those people I don't know, but Enoch, I am getting acquainted with and I know that he was a prophet of God in the days before the flood, which led me to search and read his writings to find out more,... because all the details are not in the Canon, ...in fact not much is spoken about him in the Canon, which left a lot of questions for me.  Enoch is also spoken about in the Book of Jasher and had a following of those that feared God.  He was well known, even by kings and chosen to turn the peoples hearts back to God in those days.  All the God fearing died before the flood, and only Noah and his family was left.

 

Genesis 5:24   And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5   By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Jude 1:14   And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Shalom, Sister.

Please don't be gullible. We do NOT "know Enoch was taken up in the spirit to heaven." What we KNOW from the Scriptures (and ONLY from the Scriptures) is that Enoch "walked with God: and he was not; for God took him," and that Enoch "was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him."

Here's the Hebrew of Genesis 5:24:

24 Vayithaleekh Chanowkh et haa'Elohiym v'eeynenuw kiy laaqach otow Elohiym:

24 Vayithaleekh = 24 And-(he)-walked
Chanowkh = Enoch
et = (following word is the direct object)
haa'Elohiym = the-God
v'eeynenuw = and-(he)-was-not
kiy = for/because
laaqach = took
otow = him
Elohiym: = God:

Here's the words for "walked" and "was not" and "took":

OT:1980 haalakh (haw-lakh'); akin to OT:3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):
KJV - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart,  be eased, enter, exercise (self),  follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down),  greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march,  more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along),  send, speedily, spread, still, surely,  tale-bearer,  travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man,  be weak, whirl.

OT:369 'ayin (ah'-yin); as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle:
KJV - else, except, fail, [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor, (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un (-searchable), well-nigh, without. Compare OT:370.

OT:3947 laaqach (law-kakh'); a primitive root; to take (in the widest variety of applications):
KJV - accept, bring (brought), buy (bought), carry away (carried away), drawn, fetch (fetched), get (got), infold, many, mingle, place (placed), receive (received) (-ing), reserve (reserved), seize (seized), send for (sent for), take (took) (away, -ing, up), use (used), win (won).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) (Past tenses added.)

Notice: Nothing in this verse says ANYTHING about being taken "to heaven" or "in the spirit!"

In Hebrews 11:5, "was translated" was translated from the Greek word "metetethee" coming from "metatitheemi":

NT:3346 metatitheemi (met-at-ith'-ay-mee); from NT:3326 and NT:5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:
KJV - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, there are many other ways that this verse could have been translated, and there is again no indication that Enoch was taken TO HEAVEN! That's an INTERPRETATION of what the Scripture says, and there is no proof from this Scripture that he went to heaven, either!

Be careful of your conclusions.

[Sister]

On 07/03/2017 at 0:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Sister.

Please don't be gullible. We do NOT "know Enoch was taken up in the spirit to heaven." What we KNOW from the Scriptures (and ONLY from the Scriptures) is that Enoch "walked with God: and he was not; for God took him," and that Enoch "was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him."

Here's the Hebrew of Genesis 5:24:

24 Vayithaleekh Chanowkh et haa'Elohiym v'eeynenuw kiy laaqach otow Elohiym:

24 Vayithaleekh = 24 And-(he)-walked
Chanowkh = Enoch
et = (following word is the direct object)
haa'Elohiym = the-God
v'eeynenuw = and-(he)-was-not
kiy = for/because
laaqach = took
otow = him
Elohiym: = God:

Here's the words for "walked" and "was not" and "took":

OT:1980 haalakh (haw-lakh'); akin to OT:3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):
KJV - (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart,  be eased, enter, exercise (self),  follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down),  greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march,  more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along),  send, speedily, spread, still, surely,  tale-bearer,  travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man,  be weak, whirl.

OT:369 'ayin (ah'-yin); as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle:
KJV - else, except, fail, [father-] less, be gone, in [-curable], neither, never, no (where), none, nor, (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un (-searchable), well-nigh, without. Compare OT:370.

OT:3947 laaqach (law-kakh'); a primitive root; to take (in the widest variety of applications):
KJV - accept, bring (brought), buy (bought), carry away (carried away), drawn, fetch (fetched), get (got), infold, many, mingle, place (placed), receive (received) (-ing), reserve (reserved), seize (seized), send for (sent for), take (took) (away, -ing, up), use (used), win (won).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) (Past tenses added.)

Notice: Nothing in this verse says ANYTHING about being taken "to heaven" or "in the spirit!"

In Hebrews 11:5, "was translated" was translated from the Greek word "metetethee" coming from "metatitheemi":

NT:3346 metatitheemi (met-at-ith'-ay-mee); from NT:3326 and NT:5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:
KJV - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, there are many other ways that this verse could have been translated, and there is again no indication that Enoch was taken TO HEAVEN! That's an INTERPRETATION of what the Scripture says, and there is no proof from this Scripture that he went to heaven, either!

Be careful of your conclusions.

Hello Retrobyter.

Thank you for your warning.  I have considered it my friend, and there are warnings that come from man, and warnings that come from God.  I decided to look into it and compare who's warnings deserved more merit.

I understand now how the kingdom of God has been taken by force.  For we have men not ordained by God laying out all do's and dont's.  God has given us a mind to seek and weigh out the truth from the lies by exploring everything available and comparing them to the scriptures.  Of course not everything written outside of the Canon is going to be all true,....but we sift through them and decipher what belongs and what doesn't. 

Our foundation is Christ and the gospels.  Then to back that up we have the OT and the prophets.  But not everything written in the OT was given in much detail.  In your eyes you see Enoch being translated and taken up to God only as meaning he did not see death.  That's it.  That's all you see.  Well before Enoch was taken for good he was in heaven and ordered to return to his sons to give record of what he saw.  There was a purpose in God's dealings with Enoch, and not just saving him from death, but to give record as a witness.  Enoch had to be translated when dealing with God, for no man can look God in the face and live, the reason why he was "translated" the first time, but you wont know this because you've been told to stay away.

The Secrets of Enoch

33:3.  I am self-eternal, not made with hands, and without change. 

33:4.  My thought is my counsellor, my wisdom and my word are made, and my eyes observe all things how they stand here and tremble with terror. 

33:5.  If I turn away my face, then all things will be destroyed. 

33:6.  And apply thy mind, Enoch, and know him who is speaking to thee, and take thou the books which thou thyself hast written. 

33:7.  And I give thee Samuil and Raguil, who led thee up, and the books, and go down to earth, and tell thy sons all that I have told thee, and all that thou hast seen, from the lower heaven up to my throne, and all the troops. 

Man says, "no don't go there, don't believe it, Enoch saw nothing, and left them nothing.  Lets speculate ourselves what all the different heavens mean, and let us ignore what Enoch explained and ridicule him at the same time".  "Let us go our own way and let that be our foundation"

 

33:8.  For I created all forces, and there is none that resisteth me or that does not subject himself to me. For all subject themselves to my monarchy, and labour for my sole rule. 

33:9.  Give them the books of the handwriting, and they will read them and will know me for the creator of all things, and will understand how there is no other god but me.

33:10.  And let them distribute the books of thy handwriting ...children to children, generation to generation, nations to nations. 

Man says, "there were no books distributed,  don't go there or you will be deceived"

 

33:11.  And I will give thee, Enoch my intercessor, the archistratege Michael, for the handwritings of thy fathers Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahaleleen, and Jared thy father.

Man says "there was no other handwritings, especially don't believe the book of Adam and Eve and the record that was kept of them, ..they have no history even though Adam lived for 930 yrs, nothing happened after they were kicked out of the garden.  Satan left them alone and there's nothing to know or learn of them"

 

34:1.  They have rejected my commandments and my yoke, worthless seed has come up, not fearing God, and they would not bow down to me, but have begun to bow down to vain gods, and denied my unity, and have laden the whole earth with untruths, offences, abominable lecheries namely one with another, and all manner of other unclean wickedness, which are disgusting to relate.

34:2.  And therefore I will bring down a deluge upon the earth and will destroy all men, and the whole earth will crumble together into great darkness. 

(the flood)

 

35:1  Behold from their seed shall arise another generation, much afterwards, but of them many will be very insatiate. 

35:2  He who raises that generation, (Noah) shall reveal to them the books of thy handwriting, of thy fathers, to them to whom he must point out the guardianship of the world, to the faithful men and workers of my pleasure, who do not acknowledge my name in vain. 

35:3  And they shall tell another generation, and those others having read shall be gloried thereafter, more than the first.

Man says  "No way, Noah didn't preserve any books!, There were no books"

[Retrobyter]

50 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hello Retrobyter.

Thank you for your warning.  I have considered it, my friend, and there are warnings that come from man, and warnings that come from God.  I decided to look into it and compare who's warnings deserved more merit.

I understand now how the kingdom of God has been taken by force.  For we have men not ordained by God laying out all do's and dont's.  God has given us a mind to seek and weigh out the truth from the lies by exploring everything available and comparing them to the scriptures.  Of course not everything written outside of the Canon is going to be all true,....but we sift through them and decipher what belongs and what doesn't. 

Our foundation is Christ and the gospels.  Then to back that up we have the OT and the prophets.  But not everything written in the OT was given in much detail.  In your eyes you see Enoch being translated and taken up to God only as meaning he did not see death.  That's it.  That's all you see.  Well before Enoch was taken for good he was in heaven and ordered to return to his sons to give record of what he saw.  There was a purpose in God's dealings with Enoch, and not just saving him from death, but to give record as a witness.  Enoch had to be translated when dealing with God, for no man can look God in the face and live, the reason why he was "translated" the first time, but you wont know this because you've been told to stay away.

The Secrets of Enoch

33:3.  I am self-eternal, not made with hands, and without change. 

33:4.  My thought is my counsellor, my wisdom and my word are made, and my eyes observe all things how they stand here and tremble with terror. 

33:5.  If I turn away my face, then all things will be destroyed. 

33:6.  And apply thy mind, Enoch, and know him who is speaking to thee, and take thou the books which thou thyself hast written. 

33:7.  And I give thee Samuil and Raguil, who led thee up, and the books, and go down to earth, and tell thy sons all that I have told thee, and all that thou hast seen, from the lower heaven up to my throne, and all the troops. 

Man says, "no don't go there, don't believe it, Enoch saw nothing, and left them nothing.  Lets speculate ourselves what all the different heavens mean, and let us ignore what Enoch explained and ridicule him at the same time".  "Let us go our own way and let that be our foundation"

 

33:8.  For I created all forces, and there is none that resisteth me or that does not subject himself to me. For all subject themselves to my monarchy, and labour for my sole rule. 

33:9.  Give them the books of the handwriting, and they will read them and will know me for the creator of all things, and will understand how there is no other god but me.

33:10.  And let them distribute the books of thy handwriting ...children to children, generation to generation, nations to nations. 

Man says, "there were no books distributed,  don't go there or you will be deceived"

 

33:11.  And I will give thee, Enoch my intercessor, the archistratege Michael, for the handwritings of thy fathers Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahaleleen, and Jared thy father.

Man says "there was no other handwritings, especially don't believe the book of Adam and Eve and the record that was kept of them, ..they have no history even though Adam lived for 930 yrs, nothing happened after they were kicked out of the garden.  Satan left them alone and there's nothing to know or learn of them"

 

34:1.  They have rejected my commandments and my yoke, worthless seed has come up, not fearing God, and they would not bow down to me, but have begun to bow down to vain gods, and denied my unity, and have laden the whole earth with untruths, offences, abominable lecheries namely one with another, and all manner of other unclean wickedness, which are disgusting to relate.

34:2.  And therefore I will bring down a deluge upon the earth and will destroy all men, and the whole earth will crumble together into great darkness. 

(the flood)

 

35:1  Behold from their seed shall arise another generation, much afterwards, but of them many will be very insatiate. 

35:2  He who raises that generation, (Noah) shall reveal to them the books of thy handwriting, of thy fathers, to them to whom he must point out the guardianship of the world, to the faithful men and workers of my pleasure, who do not acknowledge my name in vain. 

35:3  And they shall tell another generation, and those others having read shall be gloried thereafter, more than the first.

Man says  "No way, Noah didn't preserve any books!, There were no books"

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

Well, again, you've got some things wrong. Let's take a quick look at the more obvious ones:

First, that is NOT what Yeshua` meant when He said, 

Matthew 11:12
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
KJV

What He was saying is that some people were trying to FORCE the kingdom to come in THEIR timing. ALWAYS check the context:

Matthew 11:7-19
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
KJV

These people trying to force the Kingdom to come were like these children in the marketplace who were calling to their friends, "We have just played a pipe for you, but you haven't danced!" and the next second, they said, "We have played a dirge for you just now, but you didn't wail in mourning!' Thus, like these children, they expected John the Baptist and Yeshua` to dance to THEIR tune!

It was God, through His Messiah, who was going to decide when His Kingdom would come, not the religious politicians of Yeshua`s day.

It's a reference to this behavior:

John 6:3-15
3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
KJV

He could be ACCEPTED, ON HIS FATHER'S TERMS, as King, but He would not be FORCED to be King, as though the men forcing Him had any authority to do so!

It's the SAME ATTITUDE God resisted from the children of Israel when they "repented" (changed their minds) and decided they would go into the Promised Land after all, after God had just said they would NOT be going in because of their mistrust of Him!

Numbers 14:20-45
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
21 But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:
24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
25 (Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwelt in the valley.) To morrow turn you, and get you into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.
26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.
33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

36 And the men, which Moses sent to search the land, who returned, and made all the congregation to murmur against him, by bringing up a slander upon the land,
37 Even those men that did bring up the evil report upon the land, died by the plague before the LORD.
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of the men that went to search the land, lived still.
39 And Moses told these sayings unto all the children of Israel: and the people mourned greatly.
40 And they rose up early in the morning, and gat them up into the top of the mountain, saying, Lo, we be here, and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised: for we have sinned.
41 And Moses said, Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD? but it shall not prosper.
42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten before your enemies.
43 For the Amalekites and the Canaanites are there before you, and ye shall fall by the sword: because ye are turned away from the LORD, therefore the LORD will not be with you.
44 But they presumed to go up unto the hill top: nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and Moses, departed not out of the camp.
45 Then the Amalekites came down, and the Canaanites which dwelt in that hill, and smote them, and discomfited them, even unto Hormah.
KJV

So, this is what Yeshua` meant when He said, "the violent take it by force."

Second, who are these pseudonyms, "Samuil" and "Raguil?" Are those supposed to be the names of MORE "angels?" And, what would you say if I reminded you that both the words "mal'akh" (Hebrew) and "aggelos" (Greek) mean "MESSENGER" only? Furthermore, both words were attributed to HUMAN "messengers" more than superhuman "messengers!"

Finally,God has laid out His OWN "do's and don't's!" He doesn't need any man to speak for Him; although, He DOES use human beings to REMIND people of what God has already said.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
KJV

So, Yeshua` has warned about adding or taking away from the Scriptures, at least for the book of Revelation.

We also read,

Psalm 33:4-6
4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
KJV

Psalm 119:9-11
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
KJV

Psalm 119:105
105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
KJV

Psalm 119:140
140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
KJV

Psalm 119:160
160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
KJV

Psalm 119:169
169 Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord: give me understanding according to thy word.
KJV

Psalm 138:2
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
KJV

And, Paul said,

Romans 3:1-6
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
KJV

The author of Hebrews said,

Hebrews 6:17-20
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
KJV

You misunderstand me. I'm not advocating against the Book of The Secrets of Enoch; I'm advocating FOR the Holy Bible, GOD'S WORD, of which the Book of The Secrets of Enoch is NOT a part!

It's just like the Great Pyramid: The Great Pyramid, according to Arabic legend, is called "Enoch's Pillar." And, they attribute its origin to Chanowkh (Enoch), the seventh from Adam, suggesting that the structure was built BEFORE the Flood to survive the Flood, with pre-Flood information stored within it. Anyone coming after him, like Cheops for instance, could chisel his name on it, especially if he, as a Pharoah of Egypt, is considered to have ownership of it.

People enjoy telling stories and writing fiction, whether to amuse children or to teach all human beings. And, ANYBODY could write a person's name (like "Chanowkh" or "Enoch") on his own work and say it came from him! An honest author will tell you that his work is fiction and not really the words of the person to whom he has ascribed his work. A DISHONEST author will certainly NOT tell you!

The 66 books of the Bible have been "canonized." That is, they meet the criteria to say that a particular book is part of God's Word. This book, regardless what it claims, has NOT been so "canonized." Why not? Because it is NOT GOD'S WORD! It's always best to err on the side of caution!

It's okay to look at The Secrets of Enoch as you would any other FICTIONAL work, but do NOT give it the same weight at God's Word!

That means, do NOT give it the status from which you would take your doctrines and theology! Sola Scriptura!

[Sister]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

Well, again, you've got some things wrong. Let's take a quick look at the more obvious ones:

First, that is NOT what Yeshua` meant when He said, 

Matthew 11:12
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
KJV

What He was saying is that some people were trying to FORCE the kingdom to come in THEIR timing. ALWAYS check the context:

Hello Retrobyter

Please read it again.   ....and the violent take it by force.

Since John, even until before Christ's death, the dragon used "his children" who were supposed to be in Zion to hunt down and kill, beat and imprison those who followed Christ, and set the standard on what was the acceptable teachings of God, and what was not.  Even war broke out in heaven after Jesus' death, and Satan being conquered, unable to corrupt the angels of God anymore, having his head bruised, came down full of wrath to cause havoc on God's inhabitants here on earth.

Who are the violent?  Who is behind it all?  Who orchestrated all the wars against Christians and blocked many from seeking the truth?    Who is Satan using since the days of John?  Please reply honestly and tell me if the dragon did not send out his men to infiltrate the truth, and give them his blessing with much power and authority to control and block all avenues of truth?  Satan has not left one stone unturned, and many of the captives Christ came to set free are still in captivity because they are making men their rock, and not the word.

Retro, you know how it ends.  The violent ones who cause wars, and who dictate to us how we should worship, and who we should listen to, and what we should read, .......are the same ones who subtly lead many Christians into a false sense of security with the authority they have been given by blocking the truth.  They are holding back many books so we don't find out that we've been lied to.  Not just about spiritual things, but about the earth and the foundations God had created. 

But God provided a way for us to find that truth, because the truth has been preserved, not only through the canon, but through other prophets also, mentioned by God in the canon,...men ordained by him and not man.  Things have been written not just for them back then, but for generations today, and much easier to understand because we are in the end times and can clearly see all the lies the world has fed us from young in our classrooms.

And I think you have misunderstood Matthew 11:12.  Christianity is controlled now by the violent.  Not your friendly pastor, but the ones behind them who work in the dark.  The ones who are shaping our perception of the world, and preparing us for the great deception upon all mankind.  A false savior.

Matthew 23:13   But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Sister
left out something

[Sister]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
KJV

These people trying to force the Kingdom to come were like these children in the marketplace who were calling to their friends, "We have just played a pipe for you, but you haven't danced!" and the next second, they said, "We have played a dirge for you just now, but you didn't wail in mourning!' Thus, like these children, they expected John the Baptist and Yeshua` to dance to THEIR tune!

It was God, through His Messiah, who was going to decide when His Kingdom would come, not the religious politicians of Yeshua`s day.

 

Retro

Those children sitting in the markets and calling out to their fellows are the children of the kingdom.  The prophets and apostles.

That tune they are playing is the truth, but no one's listening or rejoicing.

They have mourned for the lost, but the lost have not mourned for themselves.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Hello Retrobyter

Please read it again.   ....and the violent take it by force.

Since John, even until before Christ's death, the dragon used "his children" who were supposed to be in Zion to hunt down and kill, beat and imprison those who followed Christ, and set the standard on what was the acceptable teachings of God, and what was not.  Even war broke out in heaven after Jesus' death, and Satan being conquered, unable to corrupt the angels of God anymore, having his head bruised, came down full of wrath to cause havoc on God's inhabitants here on earth.

Who are the violent?  Who is behind it all?  Who orchestrated all the wars against Christians and blocked many from seeking the truth?    Who is Satan using since the days of John?  Please reply honestly and tell me if the dragon did not send out his men to infiltrate the truth, and give them his blessing with much power and authority to control and block all avenues of truth?  Satan has not left one stone unturned, and many of the captives Christ came to set free are still in captivity because they are making men their rock, and not the word.

Retro, you know how it ends.  The violent ones who cause wars, and who dictate to us how we should worship, and who we should listen to, and what we should read, .......are the same ones who subtly lead many Christians into a false sense of security with the authority they have been given by blocking the truth.  They are holding back many books so we don't find out that we've been lied to.  Not just about spiritual things, but about the earth and the foundations God had created. 

But God provided a way for us to find that truth, because the truth has been preserved, not only through the canon, but through other prophets also, mentioned by God in the canon,...men ordained by him and not man.  Things have been written not just for them back then, but for generations today, and much easier to understand because we are in the end times and can clearly see all the lies the world has fed us from young in our classrooms.

And I think you have misunderstood Matthew 11:12.  Christianity is controlled now by the violent.  Not your friendly pastor, but the ones behind them who work in the dark.  The ones who are shaping our perception of the world, and preparing us for the great deception upon all mankind.  A false savior.

Matthew 23:13   But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Retro

Those children sitting in the markets and calling out to their fellows are the children of the kingdom.  The prophets and apostles.

That tune they are playing is the truth, but no one's listening or rejoicing.

They have mourned for the lost, but the lost have not mourned for themselves.

Shabbat shalom, Sister.

Nope. I stand by what I said earlier, and if you don't get it, then ... fine. You will stay blinded to what Yeshua` is doing with the children of Israel. It's NOT about "Christians!"

However, if we don't soon learn what Yeshua` has in mind for the children of Israel, we're all going to continue to wait for His Return.

QUIT MAKING EVERYTHING ABOUT SAVED/UNSAVED! That's NOT the only theme in the Bible! That is certainly one that counts for much, but it's not all there is!

Prayerfully and CAREFULLY consider the following. Take your time and carefully consider EACH WORD:

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed (Greek: Blepete = second-person, plural of blepoo = "I-look-at"; "you-all-look-at/you-all-watch-out") that no man deceive you (Greek: humas = accusative form of humeis = ye; you-all [plural]).
5 For many (Greek: Polloi, plural of polus = "much, many, largely") shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (Greek: ho christos = Hebrew: hamashiyach = "the Messiah"); and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall (Greek: Melleesete = future, second-person, plural of melloo = "I-attend/I-am-about-to") hear (Greek: akouein = infinitive form of akouoo = "I-hear"; "to-hear") of wars and rumours (reports) of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (all in the PLURAL! Speaks to MUCH time going by!)

9 Then shall they deliver you (Greek: humas = accusative form of humeis = ye; you-all [plural]) up to be afflicted, and shall kill you (Greek: humas = accusative form of humeis = ye; you-all [plural]): and ye shall be (Greek: esesthe = future, plural, second-person of eimi = "I-am/I-exist"; "you-all-shall-be") hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (all this speaks to LONG periods of time!)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV

These verses show TWO of the cycles that Yeshua` used in speaking to His disciples. Each time He goes back to the present, He reverts to using the words "humeis," "humas," and second-person, plural verbs. As He speaks on, He drifts off into the near future and then into the distant future. Then, He will pop back into the present for another subtopic.

So, what IS this "Gospel of the Kingdom?" It was something that was introduced by John the Baptist very early in Yeshua`s "ministry":

Matthew 3:1-2
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (i.e., within one's grasp).
KJV

Matthew 4:12-17
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (i.e., within one's grasp).
KJV

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (i.e., within one's grasp): repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

Notice that Yeshua` NEVER had to explain what the "gospel" or the "good news" was about! The children of Israel to whom He was talking ALREADY KNEW what it was! They read about it EVERY YEAR at least once a year as they re-read the Torah (the Pentateuch) and the haftarah portions that were correspondingly read with the Torah!

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (rescue/deliverance); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

And, that's just ONE verse of the many that speak to a Messiah benDavid, an Anointed Son of David! Check out the two chapters before this verse, the chapter it is within and the rest of Isaiah! Like,...

Isaiah 51:1-16
1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
5 My righteousness is near; my salvation (rescue/deliverance) is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation (rescue/deliverance) shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation (rescue/deliverance) from generation to generation.
9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
11 Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;
13 And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
14 The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail.
15 But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name.
16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
KJV

and,...

Isaiah 61:1-7
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD (that is, the year of delight to the LORD), and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
KJV

THIS is the Gospel of the Kingdom! That GOD HIMSELF shall return and reign over Israel (and the world) through His Messiah, Yeshua`!

Remember the prophecy spoken to Mary!

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (YESHUA`).
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Gentile (non-Jewish) Christians absolutely MUST come back to their roots!

[Sister]

Hello Retrobyter

I mentioned Enoch.  You said I was being gullible for even considering his writings and to be careful.  Careful of what?  I say man has taken over the kingdom by trying to dictate and set their own rules, what we can read and what we cannot.  Man will not let us search for ourselves, because they say this is the canon and do not venture outside.  Not only have they done this with the other books, but also with the canon. 

Well I am not venturing outside, because Enoch was a great prophet in his time and God mentioned him. 

Now the scribes and pharisees thought they had it all figured out before Jesus was even killed.  They said Christ was a deceiver.  They said this because they hate truth.  They prefer their traditions and have the people come to them for instruction instead of "the Word".  The same is happening today.  You think that we cannot understand simple scripture unless we go through the learned who know the Hebrew and the Greek?  They are doing the same and cannot see it.  The spirit of God reveals the truth to us, not men.  God does not speak only one or two languages, but speaks to us all in our own tongue regarding truth.  The truth is a universal language, but no we have to go through the learned?  They are still claiming to have authority over the kingdom. 

This is all chaos Retro.  You take one thing I say, and write a long post going all over the place, distracting from our original conversation.  What you used to back yourself up was interpreted incorrectly on both points.  The kingdom of God was not only offered to the Jews.  They rejected Christ yes, but the gentiles today also refuse.  They are making the same mistake in trusting the modern day scribes and pharisees.  History is repeating itself but on a much larger scale.