The Abomination of Desolation

[Retrobyter]

On 2/16/2017 at 6:26 AM, Bible2 said:

Regarding Retrobyter's comment: "The Greek words 'en too ouranoo' mean 'in the skyi or in the atmosphere of this planet": ----- Note that there are three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The second heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a fourth) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the two witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12). ---------- In the third heaven, there is currently a literal city fifteen hundred miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the third heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth. ---------- Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where Christians go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So Christians go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem. ---------- The earth's third heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can be explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's third heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

Shalom, Bible2.

Sorry, I meant to get to this post earlier. 

IMO, you've misunderstood the meaning of "third heaven," or rather, "third ouranos" = "third sky." Rather than listening to the theories of theologians, listen to Peter:

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

There's your "third heaven," the "new heavens and a new earth." It's not "third" by altitude; it's "third" by TIME! Paul, like John and the rest of the prophets (including Peter), was transported through TIME to report back what he saw in the FUTURE in the new heavens, the "third heaven," wherein will dwell righteousness!

Revelation 21:1-8
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

Revelation 21:22-27
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
KJV

Revelation 22:10-11
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
KJV

Edited February 19, 2017 by Retrobyter

[iamlamad]

2 Corinthians 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

 

Therefore the "third" heaven is where God dwells TODAY. 

First heaven: the air we breathe: the atmosphere

Second heaven: perhaps the Ionosphere or our solar system.

Third heaven: completely out of our Solar system!

[Retrobyter]

On 2/18/2017 at 0:55 PM, iamlamad said:

I was not trying to pigeon-hole you. Let's take a look:

Matthew 24: Tell us, when shall these things be?  (The temple being destroyed)

...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Jesus spent many verses in this portion of His narrative.

This portion of His narrative was and is about church history: In some ways it parallels the first 5 seals that are also church age:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed (Blepete) that no man deceive you (humas).
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (Egoo eimi ho Christos = I am the MESSIAH); and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear (melleesete akouein) of wars and rumours of wars: see (Horate) that ye be not troubled (throeisthe): for all these things must come to pass, but the end (to telos) is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you (humas) up to be afflicted, and shall kill you (humas): and ye shall be (esesthe) hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end (eis telos), the same shall be saved.

Verse 13 is the first mention of "the end." From verse 15 on, Jesus is talking about the end of the age:

Shalom, iamlamad.

NO! Verse 6 is the first mention of "the end." And, Yeshua` goes back and talks directly to THE DISCIPLES around Him, by using the words "humas," "humin," and "humoon" and verbs that end in "-te" or "-the!" He's talking to those around Him sitting upon that mountain and looking across the valley at the Temple!

To say that this is about "church history" and "the church age," is MISLEADING, if not to anyone else, at least to yourself. See, Yeshua` is frequently talking directly to them and then fading off into the future. Then, He will pop back to them in the present and fade off into the future again. This is the pattern that He follows in this discourse.

The first instance of this pattern is in verses 4 and 5. Verse 4 is directed to His students, and then He "fades off" into the future in verse 5.

Then, He "pops back" to the present speaking directly to His students in verse 6a. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 6b through 8.

Then, He "pops back" to the present speaking directly to His students in verse 9. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 10 through 14.

Can you see the pattern? 

On 2/18/2017 at 0:55 PM, iamlamad said:

15 When ye therefore shall see (ideete) the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
...
42 (You) Watch (greegoreite) therefore: for ye know (oidate) not what hour your (humoon) Lord doth come.

Verses 15-20 is another "pop back" to Yeshua`s present (and the NEAR future), and He is once again talking directly to His students with the second-person words. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 21 and 22.

He "pops back" to the present in verse 23, and then He "fades off" into the future in verse 24.

Then, He "pops back" to the present in verses 25 and 26. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 27 through 31.

Then, He "pops back" to the present in verses 32 and 33. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 34 through 41.

Then, He "pops back" to the present in verses 42 through 44, speaking directly to His students with words they can pass on to future generations. Then, He "fades off" into the future from 24:45 through 25:12.

Then, He "pops back" to the present in verse 13, and "fades off" into the future for the remainder of chapter 25.

On 2/18/2017 at 0:55 PM, iamlamad said:

:-)  I am happy to know, you are not a preterist.

" most of it was directed to His immediate future in and around 70 A.D"

I still disagree.

It's okay for you to disagree, but I hope this will give you some food for thought that may change your opinion in the future.

On 2/18/2017 at 0:55 PM, iamlamad said:

By the way, that was a great bible study you did! Thanks.

Notice that Luke's account spells out that (c) Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) would be surrounded by armies and that it's ruin would be imminent!

It is VERY possible that when Luke mentions armies surrounding Jerusalem, that that also is FUTURE prophecy, and just happened (on purpose) to fit what happened in 70 AD, thereby causing the Christians to escape the city. For the most part, all the gospels say about the same thing for the Olivet Discourse except for that portion in Luke.

God has said He will bring the nations of the world Against Israel and Jerusalem. Nathan, the 15 year old boy in Israel that went to heaven for a short time, and saw the end of this age while there, said there were 70 nations that came against Israel. I am convinced, the city will be taken again and burned, as is written. But Christ will touch down and make a way of escape for the Jews captured there.

First, be careful listening to people who claim to "go to heaven" for whatever period of time. On the other hand, it is not impossible for a person to be a prophet of God and report back a vision that God has given him or her. However, one would think that such a prophet would know that he or she was witnessing a vision, rather than having "gone to heaven."

Second, no, God doesn't give "near misses" in prophecy. This prophecy from the Son of God was PURPOSEFULLY about the first century, not about some future time. There's enough prophecies about the future time when Yerushalayim would come under an attack before the Messiah returns in Zechariah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel.

However, neither the Temple nor the city Jerusalem will be "ruined" in the future, not like they were in the first century.

On 2/18/2017 at 0:55 PM, iamlamad said:

One does NOT have to fall prey to the opinion that an idol has to be set up in the Temple, any more than one has to understand this to be some future event!

Hmmm. Yet, this is exactly what Paul tells us! The man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and declare he is God!  That will be an abomination. And that will STOP the daily Sacrifices. Since they have not been started yet, since 70 AD, we should conclude this is FUTURE.

Again, don't mix unrelated prophecies! Just because two prophecies might SOUND similar, one must have adequate proof that they are indeed talking about the same thing. It's the "STOP the daily Sacrifices" part that's wrong here. That comes from an uneducated interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27 and has NOTHING to do with the "man of sin" prophecy of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess. 2:3. It was YESHUA` HIMSELF, the "MESSIAH," who stopped the daily sacrifices by BECOMING the one-and-only Sacrifice! (Dan. 9:26-27; Heb. 10:1-18.) When God no longer accepts sacrifices except for the one-and-only Sacrifice, any further "sacrifices" are nothing more than empty slaughterings.

[iamlamad]

Retrobyter wrote,

Shalom, iamlamad.

NO! Verse 6 is the first mention of "the end." And, Yeshua` goes back and talks directly to THE DISCIPLES around Him, by using the words "humas," "humin," and "humoon" and verbs that end in "-te" or "-the!" He's talking to those around Him sitting upon that mountain and looking across the valley at the Temple!

To say that this is about "church history" and "the church age," is MISLEADING, if not to anyone else, at least to yourself. See, Yeshua` is frequently talking directly to them and then fading off into the future. Then, He will pop back to them in the present and fade off into the future again. This is the pattern that He follows in this discourse.

The first instance of this pattern is in verses 4 and 5. Verse 4 is directed to His students, and then He "fades off" into the future in verse 5.

Then, He "pops back" to the present speaking directly to His students in verse 6a. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 6b through 8.

Then, He "pops back" to the present speaking directly to His students in verse 9. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 10 through 14.

Can you see the pattern? 

OF COURSE He is talking to THEM (you) because they asked Him questions that He is answering.

I think you are making this FAR MORE complicated than it is! Yes, "end" is mentioned, but as "the end is not yet," meaning, for the present Jesus is not speaking of "the end." So I till stay with "church age." In fact, He does not get to "end times" until verse 15 where He mentions the abomination. We know (or should know) that will be an end time event. Therefore, " nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places" are all for the age we are living in. Of course they will intensify as we approach the end. I once spent a lot of time on the earthquake site, and searched year by year for earthquakes in the 4 to 6 range, to see how far back they started. Of course there were so many I had to go month by month for the last few years. But as I went back in time, I finally got to 1950 and there were NONE. It seems they began shortly after Israel became a nation once again.

Earthquakes 4 to 6 on the Richter scale                
................4 to 6..1 to 6    Richter
2000 to    2010....117859..249995    
1990 to    2000....75841...164993    
1980 to    1990....52542...78582    
1970 to    1980....29330...34745    
1960 to    1970....1756....1756    (no small quakes)    
1950 to    1960....1599....1599    (no small quakes)
1940 to    1950....0.......0    

1950 to 1951......119
Jul to Dec.........82
1950 Jan -Jun......25
1949 to 1950......0.0
1940 to 1950......0.0

 

So they began near the end of the church age, and will over course get worse and worse.  Notice how each verses begins:

And
For
And
For
All
Then
And
And
And
But

They are all tied together except for "all these things are the beginning of sorrows."

Edited February 21, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Retrobyter wrote,

Second, no, God doesn't give "near misses" in prophecy. This prophecy from the Son of God was PURPOSEFULLY about the first century, not about some future time. There's enough prophecies about the future time when Yerushalayim would come under an attack before the Messiah returns in Zechariah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel.

However, neither the Temple nor the city Jerusalem will be "ruined" in the future, not like they were in the first century.

It is beginning to appear that you are a partial preterist. You must think most of Revelation is about 70 AD. I could not disagree more: they asked about the end of the age. 70 AD did not end "the age." It did end Israel as they knew it.

The truth is, from verse 15 on, Jesus was talking about the end of the age that is still future to us. So I would say you have missed it by a country mile.  And I disagree about Jerusalem in the future also. The 7th vial earthquake (also shown in chapter 11 about the two witnesses) will divide the city into 3 parts and a tenth of it will fall or collapse. And it will be burned.

They asked about the end of the age, and Jesus told them about the end of the age. They asked when the temple would fall, and Jesus did not tell them.

[iamlamad]

Retrobyter wrote,

Quote

One does NOT have to fall prey to the opinion that an idol has to be set up in the Temple, any more than one has to understand this to be some future event!

Hmmm. Yet, this is exactly what Paul tells us! The man of sin will enter the Holy of Holies in the temple and declare he is God!  That will be an abomination. And that will STOP the daily Sacrifices. Since they have not been started yet, since 70 AD, we should conclude this is FUTURE.

Again, don't mix unrelated prophecies! Just because two prophecies might SOUND similar, one must have adequate proof that they are indeed talking about the same thing. It's the "STOP the daily Sacrifices" part that's wrong here. That comes from an uneducated interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27 and has NOTHING to do with the "man of sin" prophecy of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess. 2:3. It was YESHUA` HIMSELF, the "MESSIAH," who stopped the daily sacrifices by BECOMING the one-and-only Sacrifice! (Dan. 9:26-27; Heb. 10:1-18.) When God no longer accepts sacrifices except for the one-and-only Sacrifice, any further "sacrifices" are nothing more than empty slaughterings.

On the other hand, if they ARE related (and they are) let's understand each by the others. Daniel 9:27 tells us that an event that will divide the week will also stop the daily sacrifices. Knowing what we know of animal sacrifices in the temples of the Old Covenant, we know that if the temple is desecrated, it must then be cleansed before the Daily Sacrifices could continue.  We also know that if someone other than the High Priest were to enter the most holy place in the temple, it would then have to be cleansed. (Where is that red heifer when you need one?) When we compare Daniel 9 and 12, with what Paul wrote, and what John wrote about the Beast making an image speak, it all fits together. And it is all speaking of the 70th week in our future, as proven by John's 5 mentions of the last half of the week.

You have fallen into the same trap as inchrist: sorry, my friend, but the day after Christ died, the sacrifices continued right on! They did not stop. Therefore, your theory is faulty, just as inchrist's is faulty.  You missed the fact that Daniel put a GAP between verse 26 and 27. The entire 70th week is FUTURE. (That is really not a bad word.) By the way, did you just overlook what Ezekiel has told us about more sacrifices in the Millennial temple?

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Retrobyter wrote,

Shalom, iamlamad.

NO! Verse 6 is the first mention of "the end." And, Yeshua` goes back and talks directly to THE DISCIPLES around Him, by using the words "humas," "humin," and "humoon" and verbs that end in "-te" or "-the!" He's talking to those around Him sitting upon that mountain and looking across the valley at the Temple!

To say that this is about "church history" and "the church age," is MISLEADING, if not to anyone else, at least to yourself. See, Yeshua` is frequently talking directly to them and then fading off into the future. Then, He will pop back to them in the present and fade off into the future again. This is the pattern that He follows in this discourse.

The first instance of this pattern is in verses 4 and 5. Verse 4 is directed to His students, and then He "fades off" into the future in verse 5.

Then, He "pops back" to the present speaking directly to His students in verse 6a. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 6b through 8.

Then, He "pops back" to the present speaking directly to His students in verse 9. Then, He "fades off" into the future in verses 10 through 14.

Can you see the pattern? 

OF COURSE He is talking to THEM (you) because they asked Him questions that He is answering.

I think you are making this FAR MORE complicated than it is! Yes, "end" is mentioned, but as "the end is not yet," meaning, for the present Jesus is not speaking of "the end." So I till stay with "church age." In fact, He does not get to "end times" until verse 15 where He mentions the abomination. We know (or should know) that will be an end time event. Therefore, " nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places" are all for the age we are living in. Of course they will intensify as we approach the end. I once spent a lot of time on the earthquake site, and searched year by year for earthquakes in the 4 to 6 range, to see how far back they started. Of course there were so many I had to go month by month for the last few years. But as I went back in time, I finally got to 1950 and there were NONE. It seems they began shortly after Israel became a nation once again.

Earthquakes 4 to 6 on the Richter scale                
................4 to 6..1 to 6    Richter
2000 to    2010....117859..249995    
1990 to    2000....75841...164993    
1980 to    1990....52542...78582    
1970 to    1980....29330...34745    
1960 to    1970....1756....1756    (no small quakes)    
1950 to    1960....1599....1599    (no small quakes)
1940 to    1950....0.......0    

1950 to 1951......119
Jul to Dec.........82
1950 Jan -Jun......25
1949 to 1950......0.0
1940 to 1950......0.0

 

So they began near the end of the church age, and will over course get worse and worse.  Notice how each verses begins:

And
For
And
For
All
Then
And
And
And
But

They are all tied together except for "all these things are the beginning of sorrows."

Shalom, iamlamad.

There you go looking at the English translations again! Sorry, but it's the English language translations that "complicate" matters. You're forgetting that there was a SIGNIFICANT Jewish background to your "church age."

And what is all this nonsense about earthquakes in the range of 4.0 (or 1.0) to 6.0 in the Richter Scale? Why not check for earthquakes greater than 6.0? I found 21 at least in 1947 just using Wikipedia! And, what database were you using?

Look, I don't disagree with you about the increase in seismic activity, but you have to include volcanos as well as earthquakes. ANY seismic activity will be increasing. Besides, even here in the Olivet Discourse, Yeshua` was in His "fade to the future" stage when He was talking about this.

THINK ABOUT IT! How often do nations/kingdoms rise against other nations/kingdoms? How long do famines last? How many famines happen at the same time? How often do epidemics arise? How long do epidemics usually last? How many different kinds of diseases reach epidemic proportions at the same time? These words that you quoted show us that He is talking about a LONG TIME! However, these all started in the first century, while His students started experiencing the first of these things with His words, "(Ye) Take heed that no one deceives you, for many shall come in my name saying, 'I am the Messiah,' and shall deceive many. And, ye shall hear of wars and threats of war." And, what do we see happening soon after the Temple is destroyed? Ever hear of the Bar Kokhbah Revolt in 162 to 165 A.D? What did Simon Bar Kokhbah claim? He claimed, "I am the Messiah!" And, there were others before him!

What you're not understanding is that the "tribulation" began in the first century, and it's still going on today! It's not a mere seven years, as some claim, nor is it limited to three and a half years!

Also, you're not understanding that these people who recorded the Messiah's actions and words were JEWS! Look throughout the OT and you will see that MANY of the verses begin with "And,..." The vav connective is a TYPICAL way to show that a text is connected within a particular subject.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

There you go looking at the English translations again! Sorry, but it's the English language translations that "complicate" matters. You're forgetting that there was a SIGNIFICANT Jewish background to your "church age."

And what is all this nonsense about earthquakes in the range of 4.0 (or 1.0) to 6.0 in the Richter Scale? Why not check for earthquakes greater than 6.0? I found 21 at least in 1947 just using Wikipedia! And, what database were you using?

Look, I don't disagree with you about the increase in seismic activity, but you have to include volcanos as well as earthquakes. ANY seismic activity will be increasing. Besides, even here in the Olivet Discourse, Yeshua` was in His "fade to the future" stage when He was talking about this.

THINK ABOUT IT! How often do nations/kingdoms rise against other nations/kingdoms? How long do famines last? How many famines happen at the same time? How often do epidemics arise? How long do epidemics usually last? How many different kinds of diseases reach epidemic proportions at the same time? These words that you quoted show us that He is talking about a LONG TIME! However, these all started in the first century, while His students started experiencing the first of these things with His words, "(Ye) Take heed that no one deceives you, for many shall come in my name saying, 'I am the Messiah,' and shall deceive many. And, ye shall hear of wars and threats of war." And, what do we see happening soon after the Temple is destroyed? Ever hear of the Bar Kokhbah Revolt in 162 to 165 A.D? What did Simon Bar Kokhbah claim? He claimed, "I am the Messiah!" And, there were others before him!

What you're not understanding is that the "tribulation" began in the first century, and it's still going on today! It's not a mere seven years, as some claim, nor is it limited to three and a half years!

Also, you're not understanding that these people who recorded the Messiah's actions and words were JEWS! Look throughout the OT and you will see that MANY of the verses begin with "And,..." The vav connective is a TYPICAL way to show that a text is connected within a particular subject.

I think, in the mind of God, that the entire church age is "tribulation" and at times "great tribulation." And I agree on the "long time." as I said, in these verses Jesus was speaking of the church age in which we still live. But in verse 15, suddenly Jesus is at the midpoint of the future 70th week. I think you don't get that part.  If you wish to take any part of Rev. 12 (except the first fives verses which were about Christ's birth) and say it happened in 70 AD, then you are faced with an insurmountable task: show where all the trumpet judgments took place in history. Sorry, won't work: they are FUTURE.

Edited February 22, 2017 by iamlamad

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think, in the mind of God, that the entire church age is "tribulation" and at times "great tribulation." And I agree on the "long time." as I said, in these verses Jesus was speaking of the church age in which we still live. But in verse 15, suddenly Jesus is at the midpoint of the future 70th week. I think you don't get that part.  If you wish to take any part of Rev. 12 (except the first five verses which were about Christ's birth) and say it happened in 70 AD, then you are faced with an insurmountable task: show where all the trumpet judgments took place in history. Sorry, won't work: they are FUTURE.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Oh, I get what you're saying just fine; however, we've been at the "midpoint" of the 70th Seven since Yeshua` was REJECTED BEFORE HIS DEATH! Not all of the 70th Seven is future! Only the last half of the Seven is still in the future, and the last half won't be fulfilled until AFTER Yeshua` has arrived! Between the two halves of the 70th Seven lies the Tribulation which is more like 2,000 years long! 

Regarding Revelation, Yeshua` (actually, His Father) takes the Kingdom in Rev. 11. Then, when Rev. 12 starts, we back up in human history at first and look at the nation of Israel from whom comes the Messiah. In one verse, verse 5, the Messiah's life is summarized from His birth to His ascension! Once all the players are introduced, we continue where chapter 11 left off. The two witnesses (Greek: martusin, also translated "martyrs") are just two of the 144,000 who spread the good news about the Kingdom.

Regarding the trumpet judgments mentioned in chapters 8 and 9, I have no problem because the Messiah returns in chapter 6, ....

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (the sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (the clouds of the sky) with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

 God's Messiah is already prepared to mete out judgment against "the kings of the earth," etc. This comes in the form of the trumpet judgments, or air-raid sirens, that follow.

The First Resurrection is seen by Revelation 6:9-11. These "souls" under (or at the foot of) the altar were just that: "SOULS" (Greek: "PSUCHAS") or "AIR-BREATHERS!" This is NOT "a scene in Heaven," as is frequently taught! This is why definitions are SO VERY IMPORTANT! These people "already have their bodies," or rather, they are living and breathing souls (which is a bit redundant) once again. Consider:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice (hard to do without "vocal cords" or vocal folds!), saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them (this is a LITERAL robe and that would be hard to wear without being a living, air-breathing body!); and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

And, just to be clear, by this point in Matthew 24 (verses 29-31), Yeshua` had once again "faded off" into the future.

So, if you think of the "church" as anything other than Paul was teaching in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2, then you've missed the point! Gentiles become PART OF His Kingdom through His death and resurrection, and in the Messiah, Jews (children of Israel) and Gentiles become ONE, and Gentiles, being grafted into HIS Israel - HIS "Olive Tree," become participants in all the blessings upon and advantages given to the children of Israel! The middle wall of partition is broken down IN THE MESSIAH!

We become part of His Kingdom and part of Israel and thus have a potential place in the Kingdom Age, which is often labeled "the Millennium" because of the first 1,000 years being the time when haSatan (the Enemy) is locked away in the Bottomless Pit (Rev. 20:1-7) and Yeshua` is subduing all of His enemies (1 Cor. 15:20-28). The Millennium is also the time when the Kingdom parables of Matthew 13 are fulfilled.

God has been showing me a few things for the last 40 years, and proper definitions for common (and commonly misused) words are key.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Oh, I get what you're saying just fine; however, we've been at the "midpoint" of the 70th Seven since Yeshua` was REJECTED BEFORE HIS DEATH! Not all of the 70th Seven is future! Only the last half of the Seven is still in the future, and the last half won't be fulfilled until AFTER Yeshua` has arrived! Between the two halves of the 70th Seven lies the Tribulation which is more like 2,000 years long! 

Regarding Revelation, Yeshua` (actually, His Father) takes the Kingdom in Rev. 11. Then, when Rev. 12 starts, we back up in human history at first and look at the nation of Israel from whom comes the Messiah. In one verse, verse 5, the Messiah's life is summarized from His birth to His ascension! Once all the players are introduced, we continue where chapter 11 left off. The two witnesses (Greek: martusin, also translated "martyrs") are just two of the 144,000 who spread the good news about the Kingdom.

Regarding the trumpet judgments mentioned in chapters 8 and 9, I have no problem because the Messiah returns in chapter 6, ....

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven (the sky): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven (the clouds of the sky) with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

 God's Messiah is already prepared to mete out judgment against "the kings of the earth," etc. This comes in the form of the trumpet judgments, or air-raid sirens, that follow.

The First Resurrection is seen by Revelation 6:9-11. These "souls" under (or at the foot of) the altar were just that: "SOULS" (Greek: "PSUCHAS") or "AIR-BREATHERS!" This is NOT "a scene in Heaven," as is frequently taught! This is why definitions are SO VERY IMPORTANT! These people "already have their bodies," or rather, they are living and breathing souls (which is a bit redundant) once again. Consider:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice (hard to do without "vocal cords" or vocal folds!), saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them (this is a LITERAL robe and that would be hard to wear without being a living, air-breathing body!); and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

And, just to be clear, by this point in Matthew 24 (verses 29-31), Yeshua` had once again "faded off" into the future.

So, if you think of the "church" as anything other than Paul was teaching in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2, then you've missed the point! Gentiles become PART OF His Kingdom through His death and resurrection, and in the Messiah, Jews (children of Israel) and Gentiles become ONE, and Gentiles, being grafted into HIS Israel - HIS "Olive Tree," become participants in all the blessings upon and advantages given to the children of Israel! The middle wall of partition is broken down IN THE MESSIAH!

We become part of His Kingdom and part of Israel and thus have a potential place in the Kingdom Age, which is often labeled "the Millennium" because of the first 1,000 years being the time when haSatan (the Enemy) is locked away in the Bottomless Pit (Rev. 20:1-7) and Yeshua` is subduing all of His enemies (1 Cor. 15:20-28). The Millennium is also the time when the Kingdom parables of Matthew 13 are fulfilled.

God has been showing me a few things for the last 40 years, and proper definitions for common (and commonly misused) words are key.

Sorry, I won't even waste my time answering.  One day you will find out that John's chronology is perfect and when these things begin to happen (most of Revelation is future) they will happen in the same order that John wrote them, with the exception of parentheses.

Until you can show absolute scriptural proof that Revelation was written in the wrong order, there is no point in continuing.  I have written many times:

Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Just wait, and your "mix it up & rearrange" theory will be proven wrong.

Did you just overlook the story of the rich man and Lazarus, how they talked across this great gulf - and heard each other? Don't even try to tell me they had physical bodies! They were in spirit form, having both died.

I am always amazed at people coming up with "comings" of our Lord in various places in Revelation. It is very plain where John places His coming: and that is in chapter 19. How many more times do you believe He will come?

 

 

You missed this definition of soul: 

the soul

    the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

    the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

    the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

 

By the way: does God breathe?

Edited February 24, 2017 by iamlamad