Apologetic / Counter Cult Ministry

[JohnD]

7 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

So what is your point JohnD, it's annoying when people post many scriptures without any comment? So if Isaiah 44:24 states that only Yahweh God alone is the creator (and it does), and if 1st Corinthians 8:6 states (and it does) that creation is out of (ek) the Father and then through (di) the Son, then as both the Father and Son are both active in creation, that means that both the Father and Son must be the one single Yahweh who is the one God of the Bible.

I agree both Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) are all YHVH (Yahweh).

The scriptures indicate this.

You isolate portions of one verse to point out the Greek (ek) and (di).

I pointed out the context of the full revelation of the entire Bible (which takes into consideration the points you raise but does not negate the other verses to be considered but rather amalgamates them to get the over all point God is making).  

1 Corinthians 8:6 (AV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

But to us there is but one God,

the Father,

of {ek} whom are all things,

and we in him;

and one Lord

Jesus Christ,

by {di} whom are all things,

and we by him.

Again, you are isolating portions of one verse and applying a very narrow interpretation at that (which I will demonstrate) to negate what the rest of scripture teaches.

But to us there is but one PROVIDER,

the FINANCIER,

of {ek} whom are all things,

and we in him;

and ONE BUILDER

the CARPENTER,

by {di} whom are all things,

and we by him.

This could also speak to the authority of the Father as the (ek) and the actual creation as the (di)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Once again, let's consider the amalgamation of scriptures.

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things (1), Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer (2), and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Colossians 1:13–16 (NASB95)
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption (2), the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Colossians 1:13–16 (NASB95)
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created (1), both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Colossians 1:13–16 (NASB95)
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 10:5 (NASB95)
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

Hebrews 1:5 (NASB95)
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?

2 John 3 (NASB95)
3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Only begotten / created of the Father / the Son (singular) of the Father.

Since 1 Corinthians 8:6 has been demonstrated to show it could have applied to the authority or design of the Father rather than the actual work of creation which the scriptures clearly indicate the preincarnate Jesus did do (the actual work of creation) AND it says the one doing the work did so ALONE BY HIMSELF...

Please come up with other verses you believe / feel indicate the Father actually created anything other than the body of the Son. And we will discuss them.

 

 

[JohnD]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

On 6/9/2017 at 4:34 AM, shiloh357 said:

That is not contained in Scripture at all.   Jesus was not the creation of Father.   Jesus is as eternal as the Father.   Nowhere does the Bible present Jesus as a prototype of anything.   You're not getting that from Scripture.  

1 Corinthians 15:43–45 (NASB95)
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Prototype A

Prototype B

And Jesus is as Eternal [in Spirit] as the Father. Never said he wasn't. His body is another matter.

Hebrews 10:5–7 (NASB95)
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Hebrews 1:5 (NASB95)
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”?

Jesus is far more than just one of the three Individuals who are the one God becoming human in the sense of trying on a body like it was a glove. God the Word BECAME the man Jesus without losing / surrendering his deity. 

Philippians 2:5–11 (NASB95)
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Verse 6 in the Greek "morphe theos huparchon" (in the form of God sustaining / never ceasing to be).

1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ← only affirming his humanity that he is God equal with God and truly man but not in the exact as the sons of the first Adam.  Likeness / appearance...  and yet he is truly human and truly divine.

WELL?

[simplejeff]

6 minutes ago, JohnD said:

WELL?

In earlier post(s),  you had posted that Jesus was created by the Father,  without clarifying HIS BODY, HIS Fleshly tent, is what was created by the Father,  and your post(s) was reported as denying Jesus contrary to both Scripture and the rules of this site we are on.  

Here now it seems you have clarified what you meant........  and it is different than those previous post(s) stated , standing alone without explanation at the time.

[Guest shiloh357]

54 minutes ago, JohnD said:

WELL?

None of that says that Jesus was a creation of the Father and none of that supports the idea of Jesus being a "prototype" of Adam.   You are reading strange and false teachings into the Bible.   Jesus' incarnation was not a "creation."

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

In earlier post(s),  you had posted that Jesus was created by the Father,  without clarifying HIS BODY, HIS Fleshly tent, is what was created by the Father,  and your post(s) was reported as denying Jesus contrary to both Scripture and the rules of this site we are on.  

Here now it seems you have clarified what you meant........  and it is different than those previous post(s) stated , standing alone without explanation at the time.

Never got a warning or anything.

Now my question to you,

1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

I quote a scripture that says Jesus is a man.

If you are consistent in your reporting... then you must report me also for not also quoting the verses that declare him as God.

Wow. What a loving display this is.

 

[JohnD]

44 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

 

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

WELL?

None of that says that Jesus was a creation of the Father and none of that supports the idea of Jesus being a "prototype" of Adam.   You are reading strange and false teachings into the Bible.   Jesus' incarnation was not a "creation."

 

Sure it did. Every word.

Adam son of God (Luke 3:38) was prototype number 1.

The second Adam / Last Adam (Jesus Christ) (1 Corinthians 15:45) is prototype number 2.

You can refuse it (with no backing of any kind I might add) all you want. But it doesn't change what the scripture points out.

And for the FINAL time I reiterate Jesus' BODY was the creation of the Father (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14).

You can deny that all you want too.

Back on IGNORE you go.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Sure it did. Every word.

Adam son of God (Luke 3:38) was prototype number 1.

The second Adam / Last Adam (Jesus Christ) (1 Corinthians 15:45) is prototype number 2.

You can refuse it (with no backing of any kind I might add) all you want. But it doesn't change what the scripture points out.

And for the FINAL time I reiterate Jesus' BODY was the creation of the Father (Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14).

You can deny that all you want too.

Back on IGNORE you go.

I don't need do too much in terms of backing anything because in the first place, you apparently don't understand what a prototype is, and secondly, I don't refute the Bible with the Bible.

You have provided NO Scripture that says that Jesus was a creation of the Father. The Scriptures you post don't say what you're saying. 

It doesn't matter if you put me on ignore or not.  I will continue to counter your false teaching so that no one will accept the false gospel you're peddling.

[JohnD]

6 minutes ago, JohnD said:

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

In earlier post(s),  you had posted that Jesus was created by the Father,  without clarifying HIS BODY, HIS Fleshly tent, is what was created by the Father,  and your post(s) was reported as denying Jesus contrary to both Scripture and the rules of this site we are on.  

Here now it seems you have clarified what you meant........  and it is different than those previous post(s) stated , standing alone without explanation at the time.

Never got a warning or anything.

Now my question to you,

1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

I quote a scripture that says Jesus is a man.

If you are consistent in your reporting... then you must report me also for not also quoting the verses that declare him as God.

Wow. What a loving display this is.

FYI (to the resonable folks who don't have it in for me)...

Jesus is God the Word (John 1:1) who became a man (John 1:14) in addition to being God with God equal with God never ceasing to be God (Philippians 2:5-11).

He is our Creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:13-16, Isaiah 44:24, Genesis 1:1) and became a man to be our kinsman redeemer (John 1:14, Philippians 2:6-8, 1 Timothy 2:5).

He is eternal God in Spirit and created / begotten uniquely by the Father in body (John 1:14, Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5).

He sacrificed that body / his human life on the cross for our sins and rose the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

There is one God.

There are three individuals who are the one God (the Father of Jesus' body) the Word (Creator of Heaven and Earth who became a man and is our Redeemer) the Holy Spirit (Author and Interpreter of the Scriptures and indweller of the believers in Jesus Christ).

[JohnD]

Hebrews 10 (NASB95)
1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ ”

 

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law),

9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,” He then says,
17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.
34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

 

[SavedOnebyGrace]

17 hours ago, Limey_Bob said:

Here in Plymouth in the UK, many evangelicals who attend churches with firm Trinitarian doctrinal statements of faith on their web sites, are themselves non-Trinitarian; usually modalists who claim that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Or else they are tri-theists who'll claim that God is three separate persons or separate beings each with his own mind, will, even essence etc. So sadly, most evangelicals simply do not understand the Trinity, and give non-Trinitarian definitions of the Trinity, or unbiblical views about the person of Christ; such as that he has only one spirit (Apollinarianism) or that he is the Father (Modalism) or I was even told at Plymouth Christian Center, which is Plymouth's largest church on their 2012 Alpha course that Christ did not make a full atonement on the cross, he went to hell after dying on the cross and I was told that he then offered a sacrifice to Satan where the atonement was complete. The influence of GOD TV and vile American TV preachers who also have unbiblical views of the Trinity, as well as teaching both compulsory tithing and signs and wonders (miracles) has been truly horrific.

 

Many people, such as myself have simply walked out of "church" never to return, as they (I ) realize that much evangelicalism is focused upon subjective, touchy-feely feelings and bears more in common with ancient Gnosticism than with creedal Christianity. When Christians were martyred for their faith in the first three centuries, they died defending objective, literal and real facts; such as Christ's literal and physical bodily resurrection, or that Christ was both fully God and fully man, or his literal, personal and physical imminent second coming. Most of today's evangelicals, here in Plymouth and in the South-West of the UK have completely abandoned facts, evidence or proof, and their evangelical religion is feminized mush of hyper-emotions and their own subjective (often mystical) feelings, which they get hyped up by loud pop music every Sunday morning when they sing songs reminiscent of "Jesus is my boyfriend music" which even the few weak beta-males who haven't yet abandoned the fellowship completely to the dominant women seem to enjoy singing.

 

One has to shake your head with sadness, thinking of the ancient martyrs in the arena being asked by the Roman soldiers: "Are you willing to die for your faith?" Only to then hear the reply: "Yes, I get warm feelings in my tummy, whenever I sing the "Jesus is my boyfriend music" every Sunday, and so yes, I will never deny my own subjective mystical feelings, as what I think and how I feel is a million times more important to me than telling people truthful objective facts about Jesus, so yes, go ahead crucify me, I will gladly die testifying to the Lordship in my own life, of my own subjective feelings over all and any objective truth." Oh my, is it any wonder why Christianity is dying here in the UK and the Muslims (who reject post-modern feelings, and instead teach lies as objective facts), knowing full well that 99% of the weak feminized and cowardly Christians will never challenge them or their claimed factual statements about Christ (which are actually lies such as he did not die on a cross and he was only a prophet but not God and man)! 

My wife and I do not currently have a home church.  The closest we came to a new home church after the Holy Spirit prompted us to leave the "Prosperity Gospel" church was a Southern Baptist sponsored Church.  We only left because the minister left and moved to another city.  He was an expository teacher, which is the type of preaching I prefer.  There are only a few TV preachers that I can stand to listen too.  So, I know what you mean.