Danger Noodle Posted March 31, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 573 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/27/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 31, 2017 5 hours ago, Jeff2 said: Predestination is only applicable when it comes to God's omniscience. God knows who will choose Him and who will not. Predestination extends no further than that. I'm sure you can explain why the Bible never says that. Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Predestination 100 Bible Verses about Predestination Ephesians 1:4-5 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Predestination is only mentioned five times in the Bible, and it does not one time unambiguously speak of any individual being predestined to heaven or hell. Yet people turn the Bible on its ear, and build an entire understanding of God an the Gospel on something that obviously was never intended to be the grounds of everything concerning salvation. They have chosen a poor foundation. Predestine means to mark out beforehand, or to for-ordain that something will happen. The term is erroneously used by many to mean that God, by an eternal decree, has resolved (predestined) from all eternity to save a portion of mankind and to damn all others apart from anything within themselves, to include any foreknowledge of any future faith or obedience. But this is what people say that they think it means. The only thing that really matters is, "does the Bible say these things"? Upon an unbiased observation of Scripture, we can see that there is not a singular instance where the word "predestination" is used in the context of the salvation of any individual. 1). Rom. 8:29-30, states clearly what is predestined; it is that those that are called (a term referring to those who receive the gracious offer of God to salvation) are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, which is sanctification, holiness of character, and not salvation. 2). In Ephesians 1:5 we are told that from all eternity God "predestined us (believers, Saints (holy ones), (see verse one for context) to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself." Notice that this predestined adoption is not to individuals but to a class of people, the "Church," (Us). Verse 4 clarifies states that the plan of God before all time was, " just as He chose us (believers) in Him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless (sanctification) before Him in love." Before the foundation of the world, God determined (predestinated, for-ordained) that we would be "chosen" on the basis of grace by faith in the work of Jesus Christ for salvation, resulting in a change of character, from sin to holiness. 3). Ephesians 1:11 uses the term "predestination" once again, but is ambiguous as to what the subject of this predestination is. "We (believers once again) have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." What is predestined? If we take the clear statements to interpret the unclear, we could go back to verse five and answer it, "That we (believers) should be holy and blameless before Him." Do we just assume from the word "predestined" alone, that this ambiguity give us theological license to built an entire wall of theological presumption that everyone is either predestined to heaven or to hell? I don't think so. Why does "work all things after the council of his will"? Verses 12 and 13 does tell us the "purpose of His will," the "why" we as Believers are to be to the praise of his glory by trusting in Jesus Christ. Ver. 12, 13. I take this to mean in context, that God chose and predestined that believers, before the foundation of the world, should be holy and blameless, and this is to the praise and glory 4). 1 Corinthians 2:7 states, "but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory." Notice that it is God's wisdom that is predestined to those that believe, and not the predestination that they would believe the wisdom. 5). Acts 4:28 is the last occurrence of the term in the Holy Scriptures, though the English "predestined" is not used. It is the same term, and should consider it. The context, verses 27-30, are speaking about how God determined (predestined) the outcome of Jesus on the Cross. Peter was telling them that they were doing what God predestined to happen. Peter's point? This passage is simply a statement that that the death of Christ was predestined and did not happen because of the determination of the will of man. Consider that without a single passage that states clearly that God predestines a single individual to election and reprobation, to heaven or hell, but for every individual to be reconciled to Him through faith in Jesus Christ. A term that only has five occurrences within the Scripture cannot possibly be the cornerstone of the plan and mystery of God concerning salvation, especially when there is not a singular statement that any individual has ever been predestined by God to salvation. It would be a great error to build an entire theology based upon the predestination of individuals, since by drawing on this unbiblical assumption, one cannot possibly arrive at the truth. Edited April 1, 2017 by Jeff2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 1, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) A final question that has concerned and divided Christian people down through the ages is whether some are predestined to life and salvation and others predestined to condemnation ("double predestination"). On certain things Scripture is clear: (1) we all, because of our sinfulness, deserve only God's condemnation; (2) our salvation is entirely because of God's grace and God's initiative; (3) the dominant emphasis is not on the fact that some are chosen by God and some are not, but on what is the purpose of God for those chosen: "to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" ( Rom 8:29 ), or, "adoption as his children through Jesus Christ to the praise of his glorious grace" ( Eph 1:5-6 ; NRSV ). What, then, should be said of Paul's argument in Romans 9-11? In those chapters much is said in positive terms of God's purpose, grace offered in turn to Jews and to Gentiles. Much also is said of human responsibility in the rejection of God's grace on the part of many in Israel and thus their failure to obtain God's salvation. The only verse that can be and is often taken to speak of predestination to condemnation is in the form of a hypothetical question (and one capable of very diverse interpretations, as the commentaries indicate): "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathprepared for destruction?" ( Rom 9:22 ). It would be hard to fit together a predestination to judgment and the operation of human free will and our responsibility. The failure to find the salvation offered to humankind by a gracious and loving God seems more wisely assigned to the way men and women "reject God's purpose for themselves" ( Luke 12:30 ) rather than to a prior, unalterable rejection by God. Baker Evangelical Dictionary - Predestination Edited April 1, 2017 by Jeff2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Noodle Posted April 1, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 573 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/27/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2017 I don't know why it would be an issue of contention. God's foreknowledge and predetermining events in the course of human history are all spoken of in his word. God being eternally knowledgeable and the source of salvation would know who would come to repentance in his only son. And who would not. The entire proposal of salvation is contingent on God's orchestration from start to finish. God's word is clear in Romans 8:29. One example. All that is prophesied in scripture is of God. His predetermining all things including the birth and death of his son. And of course we have John 6:44. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonky Posted April 6, 2017 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 346 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2017 (edited) On 3/31/2017 at 5:10 AM, shiloh357 said: No one goes to hell for eternity based on how they lived, nor does it have anything to do with religion. They go to Hell because they rejected the only plan of salvation God offers them to escape it. Hell isn't where God sends anyone. Hell is the consequence of choosing to reject Jesus. I am familiar with this view but I feel that this view is either quite naive or purposely being unrealistic. The implication here is that EVERYONE with a sound mind should obviously and easily see that the Bible is the truth and everything it says is accurate. I can't reject that which I am not convinced exists. This view you share pretends that everyone has access to the data and some of us heathens are just full of pride and refuse to accept what we know to be true. I can assure you there are really people out there that don't deny Christ, but at the same time aren't convinced there's anything to "escape". Edited April 6, 2017 by Bonky spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted April 6, 2017 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bonky said: The implication here is that EVERYONE with a sound mind should obviously and easily see that the Bible is the truth and everything is says is accurate. Escape ? No. Life ? No. Understand ? No. Easy ? No. Obvious ? No. Hope ? No. Everyone ? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted April 6, 2017 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2017 Few ? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonky Posted April 6, 2017 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 346 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2017 Not sure what you're saying Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted April 6, 2017 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Bonky said: Not sure what you're saying Jeff. Later I'll look back and see , I don't remember. Basically though, for 2000 years the question at hand has been argued both sides (and maybe 'middle ground' ?) ..... No one , they admitted long ago, has ever shown from SCRIPTURE the definitive answer, (for men to know)... all anyone knows is what is written - YHWH is perfect, just, righteous, merciful, and HIS WORD is final judge. i.e. no one knows, from HIS WORD, one way or another, for any one particular life or another. Period. No argument. (because YHWH does not say). Emotions, feelings, misleadings, doctrines of men and of demons have all mixed in, inundated people everywhere, claiming this or that. But it is not stated in YHWH'S WORD, except for the remnant, the sanctified perhaps, those called and chosen and set apart by HIM, for HIS OWN REASONS(no reason needed), for HIS OWN PURPOSE, for HIS OWN PLAN. As HE SAYS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Noodle Posted April 6, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 573 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/27/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 6, 2017 Does it need to be in writing? "God does not send babies to Hell!" ? When Jesus told us that same thing when he was preaching to adult Jews who were sinners and while accompanied by his beloved apostles. That they, the unredeemed, must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven. If adult sinners needing to seek repentance and rebirth as a new creation in Christ need to become like little children, in order to see Heaven, how can it be argued we don't know that those that are already babies and little children may go to Hell when they die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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