Big Boy Stan Murf Posted September 11, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.80 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 11, 2023 Quote Do all Babies go to heaven? The calvinists claim only a few "elect" babies go to Heaven, and all other babies go to hell. Some calvinists say that if a baby dies then that proves it was not elect therefore that baby goes to hell. The god of calvinism is a monster and is not the God of the Bible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted September 22, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted September 22, 2023 On 3/27/2017 at 4:52 PM, simplejeff said: Well, several times "unclean" was referenced , as in nothing "unclean" enters heaven.... and the refence to which children are clean and which are unclean in the NEW TESTAMENT also.... and , why ? besides - NO ONE , in the last what, 2000 years, has shown any SCRIPTURE ("HIS WORD") that shows babies go to anywhere (including heaven) in general, except probably "to the grave" .... There is no INJUSTICE with YHWH THE CREATOR, so if ALL AND EVERY BABY along with all the children and adults who drowned in the flood are resurrected in shame and judgment, instead of to everlasting life, that is YHWH'S judgment, with perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge and with no iniquity in HIMSELF. Perhaps no one will know until they are resurrected. (and even then, perhaps not - YHWH'S CHOICE).... Matthew 18:2-6 Easy-to-Read Version 2 Jesus called a little child to come to him. He stood the child in front of the followers. 3 Then he said, “The truth is, you must change your thinking and become like little children. If you don’t do this, you will never enter God’s kingdom. 4 The greatest person in God’s kingdom is the one who makes himself humble like this child. 5 “Whoever accepts a little child like this in my name is accepting me. Jesus Warns About Causes of Sin 6 “If one of these little children believes in me, and someone causes that child to sin, it will be very bad for that person. It would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be drowned in the deep sea. Read full chapter Matthew 17 Matthew 19 Mark 10:15 Easy-to-Read Version 15 The truth is, you must accept God’s kingdom like a little child accepts things, or you will never enter it.” Read full chapter Mark 10:15 in all English translations Mark 9 Mark 11 Luke 18:17 Easy-to-Read Version 17 The truth is, you must accept God’s kingdom like a little child accepts things, or you will never enter it.” Read full chapter Luke 18:17 in all English translations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted September 22, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted September 22, 2023 Isaiah 66:22 Easy-to-Read Version The New Heavens and the New Earth 22 The Lord says, “I will make a new world—new heavens and a new earth—that will last forever. In the same way, your names and your children will always be with me. Read full chapter Isaiah 66:22 in all English translations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted September 22, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted September 22, 2023 Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven' ” (Matt. 19:13–14; see also Mark 10:13–14 and Luke 18:15–16). "The Bible doesn’t explicitly answer the question of whether children who die before they are born again go to heaven. However, enough indirect information can be pieced together from Scripture to provide a satisfactory answer, which relates to infants as well as those with mental handicaps and others. The Bible speaks to the fact that all of us born of human parents are born with an inherited corruption from Adam that ensures we will inevitably sin. This is often referred to as original sin. While God created Adam and Eve in His own likeness (Genesis 5:1), the Bible says that, once Adam and Eve fell and became sinful, Adam fathered children “in his own likeness” (Genesis 5:3, emphasis added; cf. Romans 5:12). All human beings have inherited a sinful nature through Adam’s original act of disobedience; Adam became sinful, and he passed that sinfulness along to all his descendants. The Bible speaks matter-of-factly about children who do not know enough “to reject the wrong and choose the right” (Isaiah 7:16). One reason people are guilty before God, Romans 1 says, is that they refuse to acknowledge what is “clearly seen” and “understood” concerning God (verse 20). People who, upon seeing and evaluating the evidence of nature, reject God are “without excuse.” This raises some questions: If a child is too young to know right from wrong and possesses no capacity for reasoning about God, then is that child exempted from judgment? Will God hold babies responsible for not responding to the gospel, when they are incapable of understanding the message? We believe that granting saving grace to babies and young children, on the basis of the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement, is consistent with God’s love and mercy. In John 9, Jesus heals a man born blind. After the physical healing, the man goes through a process of receiving his spiritual sight. At first, the man is ignorant; he knows Jesus’ name but not where to find Him (John 9:11–12). Later, he arrives at the truth that Jesus is a prophet (verse 17) and that He is from God (verse 33). Then, in speaking to Jesus, the man admits his ignorance and his need for the Savior. Jesus asks him, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” and the man replies, “Who is he, sir? . . . Tell me so that I may believe in him” (verses 35–36). Finally, having seen the light spiritually, he says, “Lord, I believe” and worships Jesus (verse 38). Following the expression of faith from the man born blind, Jesus encounters some spiritually blind Pharisees: “Jesus said, ‘For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.’ Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, ‘What? Are we blind too?’ Jesus said, ‘If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains’” (John 9:39–41). In other words, Jesus says, “If you were truly ignorant [blind], you would have no guilt. It’s because you are not ignorant—you are willfully unbelieving—that you stand guilty before God.” The principle Jesus lays down in John 9 is that God does not condemn people for things they are unable to do. “Sin is measured by the capacities or ability of people, and by their opportunities of knowing the truth. If people had no ability to do the will of God, they could incur no blame. If they have all proper ability, and no disposition, God holds them to be guilty” (Albert Barnes, New Testament Notes: Explanatory and Practical, ed. by Robert Frew, Baker Book House, Vol. 1, “Jn. 9:41”). According to this principle, babies and young children who are unable to accept or reject Christ are not held accountable for unbelief. Before people mature enough to discern right from wrong (sometimes called reaching “the age of accountability”), it would seem that they are not held responsible by God. Toddlers sin, and they bear Adam’s corrupt nature, but lacking the ability to understand the concept of right and wrong, they are under God’s grace, in our opinion. Other biblical anecdotes (e.g., David testifying that he would be reunited with his dead child after death in 2 Samuel 12:23) support the reasonable belief that infants go to heaven when they die. The same holds true for those with mental disabilities who cannot comprehend right and wrong." https://www.gotquestions.org/do-babies-go-to-heaven.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted September 22, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted September 22, 2023 "The concept of the “age of accountability” is that children are not held accountable by God for their sins until they reach a certain age and that, if a child dies before reaching the “age of accountability,” that child will, by the grace and mercy of God, be granted entrance to heaven. Is the concept of an age of accountability biblical? Is there such a thing as an “age of innocence”? Frequently lost in the discussion regarding the age of accountability is the fact that children, no matter how young, are not “innocent” in the sense of being sinless. The Bible tells us that, even if an infant or child has not committed personal sin, all people, including infants and children, are guilty before God because of inherited and imputed sin. Inherited sin is that which is passed on from our parents. In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” David recognized that even at conception he was a sinner. The sad fact that infants sometimes die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam’s original sin. Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. The only way God can be just and at the same time declare a person righteous is for that person to have received forgiveness by faith in Christ. Christ is the only way. John 14:6 records what Jesus said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me.” Also, Peter states in Acts 4:12, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” What about babies and young children who never attain the ability to make the personal choice to believe in Jesus? Some believe that those who die before reaching the age of intellectual or moral accountability are “automatically” saved by God’s grace in Christ. The reasoning is that, if someone is truly incapable of making a decision for or against Christ, then that one is extended God’s mercy. Charles Spurgeon held this view: “I rejoice to know that the souls of all infants, as soon as they die, speed their way to Paradise. Think what a multitude there is of them!” (C. H. Spurgeon’s Autobiography, Vol. 1, ch. XVI, “A Defence of Calvinism,” Passmore and Alabaster, 1897, p. 175). The Bible does not directly address an age of accountability. One verse that may speak to the issue indirectly is Romans 1:20, “Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” According to this, mankind’s guilt before God is based, in part, on a rejection of what can be “clearly seen” of God’s existence, eternality, and power. So, what about children who have no faculty for “clearly seeing” or reasoning about God—wouldn’t their natural incapacity to observe and reason excuse them from judgment? The age of 13 is the most commonly suggested for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no support to the age of 13 being a set age of accountability. The age at which a child can distinguish right from wrong and becomes capable of choosing Christ likely varies from child to child. With the above in mind, also consider this: Christ’s death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus’ death was sufficient payment for all sins, not only the sins of those who come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ’s death was sufficient for all sin would allow at least the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing. Some see a link between the age of accountability and the covenant relationship between the nation of Israel and the Lord. In that dispensation, a male child was brought into the covenant through circumcision, which was totally out of his control, being performed on the eighth day after birth. No other requirement was imposed on him (Exodus 12:48–50; Leviticus 12:3). The passage cited most often in support of an age of accountability is 2 Samuel 12:21–23. The context is that King David committed adultery with Bathsheba, with a resulting pregnancy. The prophet Nathan was sent by the Lord to inform David that, because of his sin, the Lord would take the child in death. David responded by grieving and praying for the child. But once the child was taken, David’s mourning ended. David’s servants were surprised to hear this. They said to King David, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” David’s response was, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the Lord may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” David’s words might indicate that infants who die are safe in the Lord. David could have simply been referring to the fact that his child was in the grave, but he seemed to be comforted by the knowledge. The peace he felt suggests that he believed he would see his baby son again (in heaven). In conclusion, it is possible that God applies Christ’s payment for sin to young children and others incapable of faith, but the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be dogmatic. God’s extending grace to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His character. It is our position that God does apply Christ’s payment for sin to babies and those who are mentally handicapped, since they are incapable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior. Again, we cannot be dogmatic. Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever God does is always right and good, and He loves children (Matthew 19:14)." https://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted September 23, 2023 https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/do-babies-go-to-heaven.html A term in *moral theology denoting ignorance of a kind that cannot be removed by serious moral effort. It totally excuses from sin because, being involuntary, it can involve no intention of breaking the law of God https://davidjeremiah.blog/do-children-go-to-heaven-what-happens-to-the-souls-of-little-ones-when-they-die/#:~:text=But Jesus said%2C 'Let the,18%3A15–16). https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/do-all-infants-go-to-heaven/ https://www.forthegospel.org/read/do-babies-who-die-go-to-heaven The Bible does give us an account of David's infant son dying (2 Samuel 12:23). There, David makes the claim that he will join his son after death — and David was a strong believer who did rest in God for his salvation (Psalm 62:7). Also, we read in the Gospel of Luke that John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15). From these passages we can at least deduce that it is possible to be saved as a pre-born infant. https://www.comereason.org/do-babies-go-to-heaven.asp https://www.gty.org/library/questions/QA101/do-babies-and-others-incapable-of-professing-faith-in-christ-automatically-go-to-heaven https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Jan/5/do-infants-go-heaven-when-they-die/ https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780192802903.001.0001/acref-9780192802903-e-3557#:~:text=A term in *moral theology,breaking the law of God. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34299 https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/dont-be-ignorant-about-invincible-ignorance https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/ignorance-invincible-and-vincible https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boy Stan Murf Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 2 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,027 Content Per Day: 4.80 Reputation: 279 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said: Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God That's very sad that some believe God sends all babies to hell before they have any understanding of the difference between right and wrong. This is something that comes out of the false doctrine of calvinism which makes God into some monster on numerous points within their false religion! Paul speaks of being alive once without the law and then coming of age and dying (becoming separated from God) because sin revived In Ezekiel 18:20 the Lord says the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father... so the Lord is not holding us accountable for Adam's sin. We are accountable for our own sin. God did not make babies to be sinners in the womb. God's Word says we have all fallen short of God's Glory, not that we were born sinners. No, we were all born into a fallen world and we all fell into sin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strict Machine Posted September 23, 2023 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 63 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/03/2022 Status: Offline Share Posted September 23, 2023 On 3/20/2017 at 3:01 PM, simplejeff said: Even if they are "unclean" ? (according to YHWH'S WORD (BIBLE) and not man's thoughts nor emotions nor feelings) why would babies be unclean, they haven't had a chance to choose to rebel against God yet? Matthew 15:11-20 AMPC It is not what goes into the mouth of a man that makes him unclean and defiled, but what comes out of the mouth; this makes a man unclean and defiles [him]. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted September 25, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted September 25, 2023 On 9/23/2023 at 1:15 AM, Stan Murff said: That's very sad that some believe God sends all babies to hell before they have any understanding of the difference between right and wrong. This is something that comes out of the false doctrine of calvinism which makes God into some monster on numerous points within their false religion! Paul speaks of being alive once without the law and then coming of age and dying (becoming separated from God) because sin revived In Ezekiel 18:20 the Lord says the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father... so the Lord is not holding us accountable for Adam's sin. We are accountable for our own sin. God did not make babies to be sinners in the womb. God's Word says we have all fallen short of God's Glory, not that we were born sinners. No, we were all born into a fallen world and we all fell into sin please read all the posts after that, esp, the one above You'r cool dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted September 25, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted September 25, 2023 I am very physcally sick today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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