Guest Teditis Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Boy-oh-boy, that is some tortured logic. In the present tense He gives the "sheep" eternal life... eternal. That's forever. God's not playing word games like you seem to be doing. "Read harder" didn't mean to over-think yourself into logic fallacies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Teditis said: Boy-oh-boy, that is some tortured logic. In the present tense He gives the "sheep" eternal life... eternal. That's forever. God's not playing word games like you seem to be doing. "Read harder" didn't mean to over-think yourself into logic fallacies. The TRUTH is "tortured logic"? You choose to ignore BIBLICAL FACT and cling to your failed doctrine. It is not overthinking that is the problem in exegesis, but the insertion of some foreign presupposition not found in the Bible that is imposed on Scripture, and seeking oversimplification as a sound hermeneutic to avoid critical thinking. "Eternal Life" is only presently given on the condition of present tense hearing and believing. Jesus said so! A "logical fallacy" is to insert a doctrine that is not in the passage, and assume that the passage proves it! That is what you have done with inserting an unbiblical doctrine of Eternal Security into them. There never was or ever can be" a born Securist. "You reader, or any other truly born again Christian, cannot read Eternal Security verses and get Eternal Security "out of " them. The only way that Eternal Security can be attached to these verses is to "read it into" them. This proves that Eternal Security is an extra-Biblical, external philosophy, seeking Biblical sanction. People are "educated into" Eternal Security, just as truly as atheists are "educated into" atheism. - Henry Schilling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 16 minutes ago, Jeff2 said: The TRUTH is "tortured logic"? You choose to ignore BIBLICAL FACT and cling to your failed doctrine. It is not overthinking that is the problem in exegesis, but the insertion of some foreign presupposition not found in the Bible that is imposed on Scripture, and seeking oversimplification as a sound hermeneutic to avoid critical thinking. "Eternal Life" is only presently given on the condition of present tense hearing and believing. Jesus said so! A "logical fallacy" is to insert a doctrine that is not in the passage, and assume that the passage proves it! That is what you have done with inserting an unbiblical doctrine of Eternal Security into them. There never was or ever can be" a born Securist. "You reader, or any other truly born again Christian, cannot read Eternal Security verses and get Eternal Security "out of " them. The only way that Eternal Security can be attached to these verses is to "read it into" them. This proves that Eternal Security is an extra-Biblical, external philosophy, seeking Biblical sanction. People are "educated into" Eternal Security, just as truly as atheists are "educated into" atheism. - Henry Schilling Well, I disagree with your opinion... especially about what is and is not Biblical fact. You've received bad teaching. Eternal Security is one of the best documented doctrines in Scripture. And it's people that close their eyes to that fact that use external philosophies to bolster their opinion. As well as take certain Scripture out of the context(s) that Jesus explained well enough in the Gospels. There are literally over 100 verses that speak to the assurance we have in our "position" with God in regard to Salvation... Paul talks about at length and says in Romans that God's gifts and calling are without repentance... meaning He's not going to take back our Salvation, but indeed will secure it By Himself. The Holy Spirit is given to us as a Seal of that promise and will keep us in union with God for all of our days. We don't fade in and out of relationship with Him, but are rooted through faith. Regardless, if you prefer to live out your life in fear of losing your Salvation... go right ahead... do all the work yourself. As for me, I'll trust God to keep me ever close to Him and consider me Sanctified by the work already performed in me through Jesus Christ. His work, His Righteousness, His choosing, His calling, His keeping are all performed by Him... I merely concede to His Will, thankfully and humbly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, Teditis said: Well, I disagree with your opinion... especially about what is and is not Biblical fact. You've received bad teaching. If you believe that what the bible teaches is "bad teaching," that is something you need to reconcile with God and His Word. 9 minutes ago, Teditis said: Eternal Security is one of the best documented doctrines in Scripture Then why could you not find it in Scripture without reading it into Scripture? You did so in every passage you have given as proof so far. 10 minutes ago, Teditis said: There are literally over 100 verses that speak to the assurance we have in our "position" with God in regard to Salvation... And NONE OF THEM teach Eternal Security. 11 minutes ago, Teditis said: Paul talks about at length and says in Romans that God's gifts and calling are without repentance... meaning He's not going to take back our Salvation And all of your sophistry around this passage ignores the context. We are told plainly that Israel was broken off because of UNBELIEF! Romans 11:19-24, "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou (Writing to Christians) STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them WHICH FELL, SEVERITY; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE (condition) in His goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF." We too must not become high-minded or we are in danger of being cut off too! If we stand by faith, and continue in His goodness, we have no fear of being cut off. God has not changed His mind about Israel and their conditional salvation anymore than He has ours as Christians! 22 minutes ago, Teditis said: His work, His Righteousness, His choosing, His calling, His keeping are all performed by Him... His work is not in question. But our work cannot be ignored. God no more repents for you than He believes for you. God set the conditions, they are as true as His promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heb 13:8 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,533 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/03/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 10 hours ago, Jeff2 said: Since this does not speak of final salvation, the aorist tense has no bearing on the present tense usage as a condition in other passages, as in Jn. 3:16. Ok. So you don't believe Jesus died for past, present and future sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff2 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 85 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 10 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said: Ok. So you don't believe Jesus died for past, present and future sins? Do you? And what theological tower do you wish to build upon a theory? The Bible says, only "past" sins are forgiven at salvation. Romans 3:25, "[Jesus Christ] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God." 2 Peter 1:8-9, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, AND HAS FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS." Present sins are stated in Scripture as being conditioned upon bringing them to God for forgiveness. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things I write unto you that, ye sin not. [Greek, singular, not sin one time]. And IF any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." If they were already dealt with, we would not need an Advocate with the Father. 1 Jn. 1:9 agrees, "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." God has made a provision for sins; and conditions on how they are to be dealt with if they occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeff2 said: If you believe that what the bible teaches is "bad teaching," that is something you need to reconcile with God and His Word. Then why could you not find it in Scripture without reading it into Scripture? You did so in every passage you have given as proof so far. And NONE OF THEM teach Eternal Security. And all of your sophistry around this passage ignores the context. We are told plainly that Israel was broken off because of UNBELIEF! Romans 11:19-24, "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou (Writing to Christians) STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them WHICH FELL, SEVERITY; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE (condition) in His goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF." We too must not become high-minded or we are in danger of being cut off too! If we stand by faith, and continue in His goodness, we have no fear of being cut off. God has not changed His mind about Israel and their conditional salvation anymore than He has ours as Christians! His work is not in question. But our work cannot be ignored. God no more repents for you than He believes for you. God set the conditions, they are as true as His promises. You've failed to prove any point at all much less that God gives up on His own work. Like I said, if you want to live in a Salvation through works, that's your choice. Sounds like a miserable life though, to constantly try to win God's approval through your own works. Have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Jeff2 said: I And all of your sophistry around this passage ignores the context. We are told plainly that Israel was broken off because of UNBELIEF! Romans 11:19-24, "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou (Writing to Christians) STANDEST BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them WHICH FELL, SEVERITY; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE (condition) in His goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF." We too must not become high-minded or we are in danger of being cut off too! If we stand by faith, and continue in His goodness, we have no fear of being cut off. God has not changed His mind about Israel and their conditional salvation anymore than He has ours as Christians! This passage is referring to the time of the Gentiles coming to and end, and the time of Israel being grafted back in is approaching. But I do believe that there are warnings for the half hearted, luke warm Christians who neglect so great a salvation--who allow their fruit to be choked out by the CARES OF THE WORLD instead of turning to Christ for help. I don't know if these will be saved as by fire and have no rewards or if they simply will be cut off and burned. But I am concerned. The genuineness of their faith is being tested. Does that mean that those who don't bring fruit to maturity are not genuine Christians.? Or are they simply immature Christians?. Or does only God know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 John 3:9 ESV No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heb 13:8 Posted April 12, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,533 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/03/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeff2 said: Do you? And what theological tower do you wish to build upon a theory? The Bible says, only "past" sins are forgiven at salvation. Romans 3:25, "[Jesus Christ] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God." 2 Peter 1:8-9, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, AND HAS FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS." Present sins are stated in Scripture as being conditioned upon bringing them to God for forgiveness. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things I write unto you that, ye sin not. [Greek, singular, not sin one time]. And IF any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." If they were already dealt with, we would not need an Advocate with the Father. 1 Jn. 1:9 agrees, "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..." God has made a provision for sins; and conditions on how they are to be dealt with if they occur. Of course I do Jeff2. My theological tower is based on my faith in the risen Lord. Did you declare with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead? If not you are still in your sins 1 Cor 15:17. Rom 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 1 Cor 15:12-18 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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