n2thelight Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2017 17 hours ago, Retrobyter said: 20 hours ago, enoob57 said: Pretrib is the only view that allows for 'IMMINENCE.' So like I keep asking,when did this imminence start? Exactly when did the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection / Catching-away BECOME imminent? There had to be a time when it was not imminent (before the Cross for example) and then there had to have come a moment when it was now imminent. Exactly when was that moment; when did the rapture BECOME imminent? Jesus said Peter would die as an old man, therefor the Resurrection / Catching-away could NOT happen until this prophesy was fulfilled. Paul died about the same time as Peter. This means the Resurrection / Catching away was NOT imminent during the span of Paul’s ministry to the Body of Christ, and therefor God did NOT reveal to him any such thing! It was not a possibility until the death of Peter! Paul would NOT (under the unction of the Holy Spirit) have taught as doctrine to his followers something that could not possibly happen, nor would he have included this concept in his writings to them. The Scriptures were penned by God himself using holy men as vessels. God does not lie, nor does his Word! It would have been a lie to teach and promote as imminent something NOT possible in his lifetime, amd the Holy Spirit would not have guided Paul to state a falsehood in his writings to the Church! To say God revealed to Paul the rapture was ‘imminent’ is a lie! To say the Apostle Paul believed this doctrine is a lie. To say Paul taught this doctrine to his followers is a lie. To say Paul wrote his letters that we know as Scripture with this notion presented in them is a lie. To say the Coming of Christ for the Church has been imminent for two thousand years is a lie. To say the Coming of Christ for the Church is now imminent is a lie. The Return of Jesus to catch us away will not be imminent until ALL prophesies that prevent it are fulfilled. The doctrine of the ‘Imminent Return’ is not from the Bible; The Bible refutes such a notion. https://pbenson.me/2016/05/06/bible-proof-the-rapture-theory-is-false/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 On 20/06/2017 at 5:35 PM, n2thelight said: Don't see a connection in Rev 4 or 5 ,can you give me the verses? When does Christ return to earth? Is not the Day of the Lord the start of the millennium? Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." Hi n2thlight, You asked about the connection in Rev. 4 & 5'. Is that meaning - to Christ on His throne before the trib? I said, `I agree, that Christ is not yet on His own throne, authority. However we see that coronation in Rev. 4 & 5 where the Father gives the Son the authority and power to execute judgment upon the rebellious nations etc. This investiture is BEFORE the trib. and millennium, and is in the third heaven, the seat of Christ`s authority and power.` `Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power & riches and wisdom, and strength and glory and blessing!` (Rev. 5: 13) You asked, `When does Christ return to earth?` `God...may send Jesus....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things,...` (Acts 3: 20 & 21) That time is when Christ comes for His Body and takes them to His throne in the third heaven where He will be invested with power, authority etc and be visibly reigning in that area. The Day of the Lord as per Peter - (2 Peter 3: 10) 1. The ( tribulation where) the Lord comes as a thief in the night, 2. (millennium) 3. The heavens will pass away.... The Day of the Lord is a time period and a specific day. There are three consecutive Days in God`s prophetic calendar. 1 The Day of Christ, (for the Body of Christ). 2. The Day of the Lord, (God Almighty, judgment, rod of iron rule). 3. The Day of God. (When all realms of God`s great kingdom given up to Him). regards Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 20 hours ago, Retrobyter said: There are NOT two Jerusalems being contrasted, here. Instead, we are contrasting the MOUNTAINS: Mount Zion (which is actually the mountain RANGE, not a peak), upon which Jerusalem is built, with the Mount Sinai (which is also a collection of peaks). They KNEW that they had to travel northward for the children of Israel to journey from Egypt to the Promised Land (today called insultingly "Palestine"), thus the description, "ἡ ... ἄνω Ἰερουσαλὴμ." "The northward Jerusalem." Hi Retro, `...for this Hagar is mount in Sinai, in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children..`(Gal. 4: 25) That is quite clearly Jerusalem of our day. It is still under the law. Now can you show me this other Jerusalem that is free and that has made us free? Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 19 hours ago, Retrobyter said: Shalom, gentlemen. Actually the "Day of the Lord" IS the whole Millennium, with all the events that lead up to the Millennium. When the Messiah Yeshua`, the "Sun of righteousness," returns, He will give us a 1000-year Day! This is what Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3: 2 Peter 3:7-12 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (The GWTJ) 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? KJV It BEGINS as a "thief in the night," but it ENDS with the Judgment and Fire, lasting a "THOUSAND YEARS!" Hi Retro, You mean we actually agree on this. I`m lost for words, bro. Just kidding, but that`s great. regards, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 18 hours ago, Retrobyter said: Shalom, enoob57. Actually, my view doesn't do too badly with imminence. For instance, since we are already IN such a long period of "tribulation," tell me, when will it end? If He's not coming back at the beginning of the "tribulation," then He could only come back sometime "during" (no longer possible in the "middle" since that was a thousand years ago or so, unless the "tribulation" lasts a WHOLE lot longer than anyone expects) or at the "end!" There are a bunch of opinions regarding the seven seals. How do we know if ANY of them have been opened? Some feel that none of them have been opened, yet. Others believe that we've seen the first seal opened. Others think we may be seeing the effects of the second or third seals broken. How can we tell without a reference point? I believe that the ONLY DEFINITIVE reference point we will have is when the signs in the sun, moon, and stars occur, and that's the sixth seal already! No, pretrib is not the only possibility. Hi Retro, Well I spoke too soon. Pre-trib is the only possibility. When we look at why God sends Jesus, we realise it is to bring the Body of Christ to His own throne where He and they will bring judgment over the nations in the trib. (Acts 3: 20 & 21, & Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 16 hours ago, fixerupper said: 2.Matthew 24: 31. `And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.` Other than "just saying so," you provide no evidence for what you believe. Hi fixerupper, Pleased to meet you and discuss God`s word. Now I think you must have missed the scripture I included, though you did put it in a quote. Here it is again. `For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Is. 45: 4) Jesus is speaking to people of Israel and that is the `elect` that they would understand. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 15 hours ago, wingnut- said: Hello Marilyn, Thanks for indulging me on this, it is a very interesting topic indeed. I am not ignoring your reply to my other inquiry, but for the moment I am more interested in this end of the discussion so will get back to that other discussion in the future. I agree with you that Paul is addressing the two covenants in this passage, so this would be my question to you, actually two questions. Since we know Hagar gave birth to Ishmael, and we know that Ishmael and his offspring represent the enemies of Israel as a nation, then what do you think is being suggested about earthly Jerusalem from that? Likewise, since we know that heavenly Jerusalem represents the promise for God's children, His elect, would you agree that this is meant to represent all believers? Hi wingnut, I too am enjoying our discussion. The earthly nation of Israel is still under bondage, under the law. And yes the heavenly Jerusalem with Munt Zion is the mother, the source of our freedom in Christ by the Holy Spirit. And yes, I believe, for all believers. regards, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, n2thelight said: So like I keep asking,when did this imminence start? Exactly when did the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection / Catching-away BECOME imminent? There had to be a time when it was not imminent (before the Cross for example) and then there had to have come a moment when it was now imminent. Exactly when was that moment; when did the rapture BECOME imminent? Jesus said Peter would die as an old man, therefor the Resurrection / Catching-away could NOT happen until this prophesy was fulfilled. Paul died about the same time as Peter. This means the Resurrection / Catching away was NOT imminent during the span of Paul’s ministry to the Body of Christ, and therefor God did NOT reveal to him any such thing! It was not a possibility until the death of Peter! Paul would NOT (under the unction of the Holy Spirit) have taught as doctrine to his followers something that could not possibly happen, nor would he have included this concept in his writings to them. The Scriptures were penned by God himself using holy men as vessels. God does not lie, nor does his Word! It would have been a lie to teach and promote as imminent something NOT possible in his lifetime, amd the Holy Spirit would not have guided Paul to state a falsehood in his writings to the Church! To say God revealed to Paul the rapture was ‘imminent’ is a lie! To say the Apostle Paul believed this doctrine is a lie. To say Paul taught this doctrine to his followers is a lie. To say Paul wrote his letters that we know as Scripture with this notion presented in them is a lie. To say the Coming of Christ for the Church has been imminent for two thousand years is a lie. To say the Coming of Christ for the Church is now imminent is a lie. The Return of Jesus to catch us away will not be imminent until ALL prophesies that prevent it are fulfilled. The doctrine of the ‘Imminent Return’ is not from the Bible; The Bible refutes such a notion. https://pbenson.me/2016/05/06/bible-proof-the-rapture-theory-is-false/ Hi n2thelight, I also do not believe in the imminent return of Christ God`s word clearly tells us WHEN the Body (by the Holy Spirit) has - `...come to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.` (Eph. 4: 13 & 14) As the Body of Christ has not as yet reached that unity but is still being `tossed to and fro`, we realise that more work by the Holy Spirit is in progress. This does not disprove the rapture being pre-trib. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2thelight Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,139 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 796 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2017 39 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: That time is when Christ comes for His Body and takes them to His throne in the third heaven where He will be invested with power, authority etc and be visibly reigning in that area. The Day of the Lord as per Peter - (2 Peter 3: 10) 1. The ( tribulation where) the Lord comes as a thief in the night, 2. (millennium) 3. The heavens will pass away.... No verse in all of scripture shows Christ coming to take anyone to Heaven,be it 1st 2nd or 3rd. Again the Day of the Lord ends the tribulation. There are only two advents of Christ in ALL of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted June 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,207 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 Just now, n2thelight said: No verse in all of scripture shows Christ coming to take anyone to Heaven,be it 1st 2nd or 3rd. Again the Day of the Lord ends the tribulation. There are only two advents of Christ in ALL of scripture. Hi n2thelight, `God....may send Jesus....whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21) Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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