Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Correct fixerupper !!!!!

INcorrect, fixerupper!

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

You said,

Just because you said doesn't mean it is true. Lets follow scriptures instead of your word....

Well said!

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

REVELATION 16:19 And the great city was divided (JESUS/EARTHQUAKE) into three parts(JERUSALEM), and the cities of the nations fell(BABYLON: SEE NEXT SENTENCE): and GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So God doesn't see the Nations of the WORLD as Babylon hey? Well this Scripture disagrees with you. The Nations that FALL are seen as Babylon. 

It was Jerusalem that fell into three parts. The "cities of the nations" are an afterthought. The "GREAT CITY" was divided, and then called "GREAT BABYLON" (Jerusalem) came into remembrance.  This is probably more plausible than your theory.  The entire bible, Genesis to Revelation, is more about Jerusalem that the cities of the world.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No one city made all the world corrupt.

I wish you would open the eyes of your understanding to the scriptures. Did you not read these verses?

Rev. 13: ⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

¹⁴ And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles

Rev 17: ² With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev. 18: ³ For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Do you just not understand that what is coming during the last half of the 70th week will far far far far far far far surpass anything as far as deception that has ever come on the earth? Every human on earth, save those whose names are written in heaven, WILL BE DECEIVED. "All nations," "kings," "merchants," "all that dwell on the earth..." all these will be deceived by the Beast and False prophet, and it will all come from JERUSALEM.

No other false religion has ever come close to this.  This is deception at a level never before seen. This is the woman riding the Beast. She is Jerusalem: the headquarters city for the Beast and False prophet.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, and you grow up, and give me scriptural EVIDENCE big guy!

It is always very difficult to give scriptural evidence for human reasoning. But, on the other hand, it is sometimes difficult to give scriptural evidence for divine revelation. Paul would have struggled if the church had asked for scriptural proof for his rapture theory! It was a mystery up to that point in time.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, fixerupper said:

That's what pre-trib is, one big fabricated guess!

The truth is, my guesses are closer to the truth than many posts here. Pretrib is scriptural fact. But if you don't agree, you can wait and make it minus your head. But you will still make it - IF you refuse the mark. Have you ever been REAL thirsty?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, fixerupper said:

I'm going to tell you AGAIN...

You would if you're mentors hadn't misled you and misinterpreted Revelation 3:10....

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Perhaps keeping from here is done by way of escape as shown by Luke in 21:36.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, fixerupper said:

The verses God's Wrath are found in are simple to understand.  You have taken the pre-trib fabrication method to misunderstand them, I use the face value method.

And I keep telling you that the verses you guys quote about God's Wrath all say it's averted by Christ through repentance, NOT a rapture. However, Christians are removed before His wrath comes in the vials, but that's at the end of triblation NOT before.  

I know you have said that, but it is only human reasoning and I don't believe it. I know God's wrath will begin right where John shows us, at the 6th seal. I know the trumpet judgments will be a part of His wrath. I know that only the Hebrews get sealed for protection, because the Bride of Christ has already left. I know that there is only a remnant of believers left by the time Rev. 12 comes at the midpoint of the week. Why "remnant?" Very simple, the first load went out pretrib.

I know Paul's gathering, as shown in 1 Thes. comes as the trigger for the start of the "Sudden destruction" which will start the Day of the Lord. It is all written there for all to see. And right when Paul was telling us that  those living in darkness get this sudden destruction and cannot escape, at the same time, those living in Christ will get raptured, and get to "live together with Him." And then right here Paul said that God would not set any appointments with His wrath - right here where the CONTEXT is the rapture. Therefore your theory is completely bogus, arrived at by human reasoning.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The seal keeps you from His wrath,not a rapture

You need to go study 1 Thes 5 again. Paul is quite clear that while those living in darkness get sudden destruction - the start of God's wrath according to John at the 6th seal - those living in Christ get raptured and get to "live together with Him." And it is right in this context of the rapture where Paul tells us God will not set any appointments with His wrath.

oh, by the way, that seal mentioned in Rev. 7 is ONLY for the Hebrews. No mention is given for the seal INSIDE that believers have. IF any are left with the seal of the Holy Spirit inside, there is not one verse that tells us they will be protected.  That is only human reasoning. In Chapter 12, John mentions that there is only a remnant left. Why? Because the pretrib rapture took out the main load.

Edited July 5, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is not s translation....please pull up all greek lexicons

Kenneth Wuest is a pre trib rapturist.

 

It is an expanded paraphrase.  My mistake.  But yes, he does believe in a pretrib rapture. And he is very well versed in Greek. Knowing Greek very well does NOT automatically make one a posttribber.

[Revelation Man]

35 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It was Jerusalem that fell into three parts. The "cities of the nations" are an afterthought. The "GREAT CITY" was divided, and then called "GREAT BABYLON" (Jerusalem) came into remembrance.  This is probably more plausible than your theory.  The entire bible, Genesis to Revelation, is more about Jerusalem that the cities of the world.

 

It was Jerusalem where Jesus LANDED on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it into and causing the Dead Sea to receive an influx of water. Thus Jerusalem has an Earthquake just before the Battle of Armageddon commences. (Zechariah 14 agrees as does Rev. 14). But the actual battle that begins when the 7th Vial is poured out happens not in Jerusalem but in Meggido (Armageddon). The Cities of the Nations are not an after thought, read the previous Vial that is poured out, who is gathered unto Meggido? THE CITIES of the NATIONS !! Watch this:

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So who is the CITIES of the NATIONS Referring to? All the Kings of the Earth, the World, the Cities of the Nations that come against God and Israel at Armageddon. AND THE CITIES IF THE NATIONS FELL !! Who do you think its talking about? Its Armageddon after all. The Kings of the East (ARABS) The Anti-Christ and his European Kings or (EUROPE) and the rest of the Kings of the World that seek to join in. You have to look at these things logically, they did not write as we do. Its very clear this is speaking about the Nations that fall at Armageddon. In Rev. 14 it states the event will happen OUTSIDE OF THE CITY. The Winepress was WITHOUT the City. 

Rev. 16:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. (This is describing the Battle of Armageddon, of course, at the Valley of Meggido. )

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I wish you would open the eyes of your understanding to the scriptures. Did you not read these verses?

Rev. 13: ⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

¹⁴ And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles

Rev 17: ² With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev. 18: ³ For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Well none of those Scriptures say anything different from what I posted. Babylon is a World Government System. THE STATUE. Not everyone will serve the Beast, many will choose to lay down their life, they are the Martyrs under the Alter in Seal #5, then there is the Nation of Israel that Flees into the Wilderness, the other 2/3 of Jews that do not make it will either be killed or serve Satan. But AL ISRAEL, the Nation of Israel will be preserved. The Church will be in Heaven for the Seven Year Tribulation.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Do you just not understand that what is coming during the last half of the 70th week will far far far far far far far surpass anything as far as deception that has ever come on the earth?

Its easy to deceive those who have been serving Satan/Babylon/World before the Rapture. It is not easy to deceive the Saints(Jews) who have accepted Jesus Christ, we are even told this by Jesus, that the elect can not be deceived, BECAUSE JESUS WARNED THEM, see Matthew 24..... Behold I have told you before [hand].

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE(Meaning its not possible), they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

Jesus is saying the Jewish Elect can nit be deceived, because he has warned them what to look for, DO NOT GO unto the Desert or unto the Secret Chamber, for I will be coming in the Eastern Skies. So all the Elect, Jewish people who have accepted Jesus have to do is read Matthew 24, and I am sure they did, or they wouldn't have known to FLEE JUDEA when they did. So they will not be deceived, they will stay in their PROTECTED ZONE. 

So yo will have 2 Billion people Murdered by the Anti-Christ, and many shall serve him, of course many love this world over God. But that in no way takes away from the Post I posted about Rev. 14, 16 and 18 being the Same Event, and the World being Babylon.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Every human on earth, save those whose names are written in heaven, WILL BE DECEIVED. "All nations," "kings," "merchants," "all that dwell on the earth..." all these will be deceived by the Beast and False prophet, and it will all come from JERUSALEM.

Again, you jump to conclusions, many were deceived way before the Anti-Christ came to power, they love this world and have always HATED GOD, the are Atheists, and even people that serve Satan on the earth now, all Islam will be wiped out, they will die or worship the Beast, they are ALREADY DECEIVED. The Church is not going to be on the Earth. A Remnant of the Church will be on earth, but they will be martyred pf course. Of Course they deceive MANY, that is what the Scriptures actually say, and I agree with that. They will deceive the tweeners, those who love the world but at one time loved God, the LUKEWARM so to speak will see the Miracles and be deceived. But not the WHOLE WORLD as you seem to be insisting. Many die for Christ, Israel are protected by God, and the Church is gone, but that's another point all together anyway. Many love Satan, many love the Beast. 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

No other false religion has ever come close to this.  This is deception at a level never before seen. This is the woman riding the Beast. She is Jerusalem: the headquarters city for the Beast and False prophet.

The Deception will be WORLDWIDE, they will place an Image of the Beast in ALL CITIES around the World to be Worshiped, you forget, the Bible is about Israel, they are telling you what is going to go down in Israel/Jerusalem during the Beasts 42 Month rule as the Beast, but he is going to demand worship, of course, from all men and all Nations. So it will not just be Jerusalem, imho. 

The Women (Harlot) is KILLED OFF in 17:16, you keep trying to prolong her life, that's just not possible. Islam is killed off along with ALL FALSE RELIGIONS. Babylon is World Governance which is of Satan. 

[fixerupper]

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Departure / apostasy?  Surely you know that the first translations into English used the world "Departing." Why?

Not one resource I've ever looked at used the word departure to describe apostasy.  Not Vines, Thayer's, or Strongs.  So you've fallen for a pre-trib fab.

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In 1 Thes 4, Paul tells us that Jesus comes - but it is not the Rev. 19 coming. It is an invisible coming. 

Riiiiiight, AN INVISIBLE COMING!

You wouldn't have to fabricate another coming of Christ and another rapture if you would accept that the coming of Christ AND THE GATHERING Jesus mentions in Mathew 24 comes AFTER the tribulation like the text says.  It's saddening how many people have accepted these pre-trib fabrications.  
Now it is YOU who are reading into a scripture what is not there. There is a difference between apostasy and the Greek apostasia. The English apostasy is

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"the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief." For the Greek, apostasia does not include any meaning at all about what is being departed from. If Paul meant a departure from the faith, he would have had to include the word faith. But all we have is a departure from SOMETHING.

Applying BOTH definitions of apostasy is fine.  
It comes from a word meaning a 'divorce' to defect, and to abandon something.  The only other place it's used is in Acts 21:21 where it's translated forsake
Acts 21:21 is much easier to understand in the NIV.

There were many Jews in the Church in Jerusalem who became believers who still kept the Judaic law and continued as Jews, but they did believe. That's pretty much what Acts 21:21 is about.  Paul is accused of calling for an apostasy but stands his ground and convinces them that this is not an apostasy, OR a complete abandonment of the customs and tradition of Mosaic and Judaic law.

The Jews were accusing Paul of "apostasy," or totally abandoning, Mosaic and Judaic traditions and law over to the New Covenant.  He wasn't calling for a total abandonment, only a few things like sacrifices were forbidden.  The Christian Jews were allowed to continue in many of their customs, traditions, and festivals.  That means apostasy would NOT be a partial abandonment, but a complete abandonment of all Jewish customs and traditions. 

You keep coming up with the word 'departure' to prop up your pre-trib view.  The word apostasy isn't defined as a departure.  The word withholdeth is used twice in the text.  

One where Paul said that he had already told them what's withholding the man of sin before the day of the Lord comes. 

"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

The other to describe someone that withholds the condition of lawlessness until IT is taken out of the way.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

...who now letteth [will let], until....

he be taken out of the way.

'Will let' isn't in the original text but is in many translations.  I think the translators did this to make the verse make sense.  So they added 'will let' because otherwise it makes no sense to them.  

The verse before Paul says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

HE SAYS....And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  

So the topic in the previous verse was the apostasy withholding the revelation of the man of sin IN HIS TIME.        
So I think it's a mistake to add "will let." It gives us a complete misunderstanding of what's said and incorrect time frame.

This is the closest I can get to how verse 7 should read.  

"The mystery of lawlessness is already operating, but now during that time, the one presently detaining the man of sin does so until it (The apostasy) arises in your midst."

The words "he be taken" should be "it be taken" and  means...."IT comes into existence."

Arise, Arose, Arouse, Raise, Rise, Rouse:
"to become, to take place," is sometimes suitably translated "arise;" 

Every other religion views apostasy as abandoning their former political or religious affiliation and accepting another, or nothing at all.  It's a revolt and rebellion and a total abandonment of your previous affiliation.

Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when it's ruler or king called for one and it was always to change the "national religion." I believe it was Nero who called for an apostasy FROM Judaism TO Hellenism.

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Next, please explain how a falling away, something evil in itself, can restrain evil. Common sense would tell us that if all the believers fell away, nothing would hinder his revealing.  

A falling away doesn't have to always be evil.  It's viewed that way because Christians don't have the correct understanding of it, because they don't have the correct definition of it.  APOSTASY IS NOT A DEFECTION OF TRUTH.  It's a revolt, rebellion, abandonment, and in 2 Thes. 2, it has nothing to do with the church or a defection from truth.

Edited July 6, 2017 by fixerupper