Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree that MOST OF THE WORLD today is serving Satan but they don't know it.

I disagree on Muslims. They will be deceived right along will the people from all other religions. Finally all will get to SEE god and see miracles to prove he is god. So a good Buddhist will be deceived right along with a good Muslim and a good Hindu. Satan is not stupid. He will not destroy what has taken him thousands of years to build. He will just deceive them further by turning them all to the Beast and false prophet. And they will all follow as the blind leading the blind. NO ONE can be left sitting on a fence, so to speak. All will be force to choose a side, when the mark becomes enforced.

As we know from Old Testament prophecies, only 1/3 of Israel will be saved. It appears that some are held captive in Jerusalem. But that is only my opinion.

Going to go through this much faster. Time to eat my daily Apple Pecan Salad............Pretty much all the World will be of Satan after the Rapture.  I think you are overlooking the way dictators rule once they come to power. Why do you think 2 Billion are murdered? The rest will then get in line, after all the Christians are Raptured, be that 500 Million, 1 Billion, 1.5 Billion, or whatever the number. Satan is not going to try to get everyone to go in the direction you ASSUME, number one because he has t trick the rest of the World into aligning with him, they will nit do that by SERVING ISLAM, the Elites in this world hate all Religions. These elites today, full of Satan, only use Islam to batter Christians whom the really hate, being possessed by Demonic beings of course, but they hate all Religions, they worship MAN KIND. Only a 1/3 of Jews but most of the others probably lived in other nations, like the USA or in Europe etc. etc. The 1/3 that Saved of course will be living in Israel at the time, and will Flee into the Wilderness. Some Jews even in Israel will choose to stay in Jerusalem, and thus they will serve the Beast or die.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

STOP! Just stop and think what you just wrote: you KNOW that God is not mad at believers and CAUSING them to be martyrs! How silly would that be - that God Himself is creating martyrs.  God is not angry with His church. Seal one is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel: and that is God's will. Seals 2-4 will be Satan's attempts to stop the church. If people die, it will be SATAN's anger, not God's. The seals, 1-5 are church history. We are waiting on seal 6 which begins God's wrath.

God is not creating anything, the Disciples all died for Jesus name, did God create that or Satan? The Church is LONG GONE, and in Heaven, the Martyrs are a TESTIMONY against this evil world and Satan. Thus Jesus opens the 5th Seal where the Martyrs ARE already dead, they died via the Four Seals or the Anti-Christ coming forth. They could have escaped this event had they been ready when the Bridegroom (Jesus) came but they were one of the 5 Foolish Virgins, and they tarried until it was too late. So id anyone missed the Rapture and then decided to become  Christian later, God could never allow the Anti-Christ to come forth as long as there was a few Christians on earth, that is not how God works. The 5 Foolish Virgins will have to miss the Marriage of the Lamb and the Bride in Heaven. The will become Martyrs.

All the Seals are the Wrath of the Lamb. He opens them up.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This book that Jesus Got into His hands: I am CONVINCED it is the title deed or lease document to planet earth: A document that evidently Satan knew about. I am sure he thought if he could get Adam to sin, the world would become his forever. I think he was SURE no one could ever escape from hell to rise again. He was SURE no one would EVER be found worthy to break the seals  and open the book that would spell out his doom.

But Jesus WAS found worthy: He conquered death and rose from the dead. It was absolutely necessary that SOMEONE be found worthy to break these seals, else Satan would remain the god of this world forever.

AS the seals are opened, finally the 7th will be reached, which officially begins the 70th week. And then, finally, the book can be opened to allow the 7 trumpets to be sounded. Always remember, the trumpets are what is written INSIDE the book or scroll, and no trumpet will ever be sounded until all 7 seals are opened. To think otherwise is just not to understand this book.

You are OVERTHINKING AGAIN.....The book of Seals are only Judgement's that are SEALED UP.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but this is MYTH caused by preconceptions. Our church Fathers were not stupid. They put 18 on it because 18 comes after 17, etc. Do you imagine that God was trying to make this a confusion book rather than a revealing book? NO WAY! It is a revealing. It is only human imagination that makes it confusion. You only IMAGINE Armageddon happens in chapter 16. You are very mistaken! Jesus does not return at the end of the week. If so, all would know WHEN He would return. But the truth is, NO ONE WILL KNOW.

The truth is, those events of chapters 17 and 18 will take place BETWEEN the end of the week and Jesus' return.

Actually the Writer but no chapters and verses on them. Nor were any book of the Bible wrote with chapters and verses in them, that was added some 500 years ago. It seems confused for you, its not for me, I understand what goes where and why. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why not just believe John instead of coming up with a theory that does not fit? OF COURSE God is angry and His anger will be in the vials of His wrath: that goes without saying. But WHERE does His wrath begin? It will begin right where John tells us it will: at the 6th seal, "the day of His wrath has come." It will be the start of the Day of the Lord. His wrath then will be in every trumpet judgment and every vial.

 

Rev. 6 is called the Lambs Wrath, nowhere does it say that is where his wrath begins, it says that is when the men understand its the Wrath of the Lamb. BIG DIFFERENCE. The Seals are the Wrath of the Lamb. Jesus is RELEASING THE SEALS by opening them. The Day of the Lord starts with the release of the First Seal. 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Your theories are very very far from truth, my friend. God does not get to the harlot until chapter 17, which is AFTER the 70th week has ended. However, the Harlot is about the events of the last half of the week, how the Beast and false prophet will deceive the ENTIRE WORLD from Jerusalem.

Rev. 6 is CHURCH HISTORY time. See how far off you are? 2000 years are a LOT of time. Please, my friend, leave Revelation as it is written and just UNDERSTAND it. It is not that difficult if you just take it as it is written. There is NO NEED to rearrange it. ANY theory that must rearrange is simply wrong.

The Harlot is KILLED OFF in Chapter 6, that's why you have 2 Billion Murders. You serve the BEAST or DIE.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did it every occur to you that they enter into this agreement by deception? Suppose in the soon to come war, Israel soundly defeats the Muslim nations once again. But world pressure is great on Israel, as always, so the United Nations forces Israel to stop. And a peace agreement is reached where Israel is allowed to have the temple mount to build their temple. Israel may not really know WHO they are making this peace agreement with. However, Satan's man will be in the background somewhere. But Israel will know be wise to this. They have bowed to world pressure over and over and over.

They do indeed, they are deceived by the European Anti-Christ who deceives them via destroying Radical Islam. When they sign the Seven Year Deal this man is not yet a World Dictator. He uses the destruction of Radical Islam to gain acceptance and to force a peace/security deal between him and the Arabs/Israelis. But they are not making a Deal with a Muslim Leader who is building up forces and alliances. Man if you had to develop a plan the enemy would see you coming from a 1000 miles away. I play chess, so I see these things clearly. What you advocate can not come to pass, way too illogical.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have told you over and over, this is how Antiochus did it. It is NOT ABOUT Antichrist. However, it is very possible the Antichrist will do it the same way. Satan has no new ideas. He just uses what has worked before.  We really don't know HOW this agreement will come about.

 

Daniel 8 is not about Antiochus, he is not called the Prince of princes, that is Jesus. You can tell me another 1000 times but I will not change what I know to be a truth just to listen to a person, why would I. 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Satan is not dumb. that I can agree with. But all Muslims are already HIS: lock, stock and barrel as we say. He OWNS them. He will convince them, just as he will all other people in the world, that the Beast is THE VERY GOD THEY SERVE.  They will happily take the mark. If the truth were known, they may already have the mark.  He will have no need to kill Muslims for they are his already.

 

He owns them but they are deceived, they owe allegiance not to Satan or an ANTI-CHRIST MAN, but to Allah as they see it. If they knew they were serving Satan I do not think they would continue serving him. Allah owns them. They will never serve a MAN, and they could never conquer the world, that's pure fantasy.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is only YOUR human reasoning and millions of believers will disagree.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Scriptures CAN NOT LIE....I use scriptures to back up my every point. 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

They will follow a man that proves he is the god of the Muslims. The bible tells us he will deceive the entire world. this will include all false religions. Satan will not destroy them, he will DECEIVE them into taking the mark. This is not so hard to believe, for they are already very deceived.

 

No they will not. The Elites are all pro homosexual, pro liberal, pro green, pro unisex, pro earth, pro woman. Everything Muslims are against. I just do not eve understand this rationale.

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

HOW did Antiochus conquer? It is written that it was NOT by his power. In other words, he had supernatural help. His help came from Satan. Without much doubt,  Alexander the Great had God's help.  And this Beast of Revelation is going to have the Destroyer's help: Satan himself. What Did John write? That the world will wonder who could ever defeat him. It is not fantasy, it is scripture.

 

Sorry, Antiochus is not even a thought process in my mind, he is nothing and has nothing to do with any scriptures of importance. Again, you CONFUSE Daniel 8 with Antiochus. Thus we can't discuss this with any degree of proper back and forth because Daniel 8 is about the Anti-Christ. 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Without much doubt, it will be three Muslim nations that he takes out. Sorry, you have proven how poor your theories are. I will mark JOHN's words.

 

No, the 10 Nations/Horns are of European Origin, just like Daniel 7 says.

 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

Your unsupported opinion that there are two peoples of God, that the Day of the Lord lasts for 3.5 years, and that Paul told us we would be taken alive to heaven. All are wrong and are easily refuted. 

 

Seems you didn't note much. COMMON SENSE......Verse 2 is the Seals starting and the Jewish people being Conquered by the Anti-Christ, many flee to the Wilderness where God protects them for 1260 Days............Verse 4 is Jesus Returning, landing on the Mt of Olives, 1260 days later, where he defeats Satan. Do you get it now? I kind of doubt it.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Revelation Man

[fixerupper]

I said,
The verses you guys quote about God's Wrath all say it's averted by Christ through repentance, NOT a rapture. However, Christians are removed before His wrath comes in the vials, but that's at the end of triblation NOT before.  

You're response,

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I know you have said that, but it is only human reasoning and I don't believe it.

Lamad doesn't believe God's wrath is averted by Christ through repentance.  Lamad calls human reasoning by saying this is a removal from God's wrath by a rapture...

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ…

God's wrath is attributed to salvation through Christ and nothing else. 

The wrath of God and the salvation of Christians is repeated throughout the New Testament. 

John 3:35-36  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Romans 5:8-9  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

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I know God's wrath will begin right where John shows us, at the 6th seal.

In the sixth seal, it's not an angel declaring God's wrath is come, it's not even John showing you.  He's just recording what he hears and sees. It's the "kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man."  So it's not official. It's just that these 'significant people' are amazed at the intensity of celestial end earthly events mentioned previously.  

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  Where do people hide in caves and rocks?  Afghanistan, Pakistan...

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 

Even if God's wrath begins in Rev.6, that in no way changes the meaning of 1 Thes. 5:9...

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

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I know the trumpet judgments will be a part of His wrath.

Even if that is so, taking other verse about God's wrath out of context doesn't support a rapture is going to take them out from it.  I also keep telling you that there are several examples in the bible where God didn't remove people from their troubles but help them through them.

God didn't remove Noah and his family from the flood, He saved them through it.
God didn't remove Daniel from the Lion's den, He save him through it.
God didn't remove the three Hebrews from the fiery furnace, He save them through it.
God didn't remove Job from his trials, He help him through them.

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I know that only the Hebrews get sealed for protection, because the Bride of Christ has already left.

No.  It all happens at the same time in Revelation 14!  The 'elect' is taken in Revelation 14.

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I know that there is only a remnant of believers left by the time Rev. 12 comes at the midpoint of the week. Why "remnant?" Very simple, the first load went out pretrib. 

You know????
THERE ARE MANY MORE CHRISTIANS AROUND WHEN REVELATION 12 ROLLS AROUND THAN THERE ARE TODAY!  I ALSO HAVE NO PROBLEM PROPHESYING THAT THERE'S NO RAPTURE BEFORE TRIBULATION TOO!  THE TRIBULATION WILL TURN PEOPLE TO CHRIST!

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I know Paul's gathering, as shown in 1 Thes. comes as the trigger for the start of the "Sudden destruction" which will start the Day of the Lord. 

The tribulation period isn't the Day of the Lord, and the day of the Lord isn't 7 years long.  I suppose you can't see the fabrication on that one OR the contradiction that triggered that fabrication.  Would you like me to spoonfeed that one to you too?  How about if I just say the reason why pre-tribbers claim the Day of the Lord begins when tribulation does is because there are verses that mention both the gathering and Day of the Lord happening together. That debunks pre-trib.  We've always considered the Day of the Lord to be at the end of tribulation, but since the gathering occurs there too, pre-tribbers had to counter that contradiction and fabricate a 7 year Day of the Lord.  Why not?  They fabricated another rapture and another return of Christ ALL BECAUSE Jesus said the gathering would happen AFTER the tribulation!

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It is all written there for all to see. 

So why not accept the Word at face value instead of the fabrications?  You can't see them? 

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And then right here Paul said that God would not set any appointments with His wrath - right here where the CONTEXT is the rapture. 

I'd like to see you back that statement up!  Quote the passage please! 

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Therefore your theory is completely bogus, arrived at by human reasoning.

Your theory is debunked by the 12 plus contradictions in pre-trib.  If my theory is bogus then so are the human reasoning words of Jesus...no fabrications required!
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Edited July 7, 2017 by fixerupper

[fixerupper]

We are told that we're appointed to tribulation and persecution.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Edited July 7, 2017 by fixerupper

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

To even try and accuse me of adding to the scripture by which using the primary word, where by no evidence of other than a departure from faith is to be found in the entire Koine greek period usage is simply a distorted sense of reality. 

 

A perfect example of pretribs hijacking a meaning of a word.

You are argue this point if you choose. I know what Strong's says: "OF SEPARATION."

other simple meanings found on he web: "depart from," "go," "go away from," etc. But you have to ADD MEANING to say this is a depature from FAITH. Some say "defection," but again, this word does not include WHAT is being defected from.

 "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Strong's would add: a departure of a part of a whole from the whole. If you read closely, you will see that even the King James did not say what the falling away is from - and for good reason, for it is not included in the Greek word.

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

This still doesn't determine spatial, the same can be said of a religious or political departure.

Few would attempt to argue that in a divorce, one LEAVES and does it "spatially." And the rapture will most certainly be a spacial departing.

 

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Again why? Why would Paul need to clarify a koine usage of a word? Further scripture must interprate scripture, the fact Paul has used the same word in Acts, scholary hermeneutics dictates to go with Pauls cleared usage.

Nice sidestep. Notice how Luke wrote it:  " you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses "

Luke had to ADD "Moses" because Apostasisa does not include what is being departed from.

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

Here is your peace and safety

 

Rev 11:10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Funny, I don't see those words here. Oh, you are imagining them! Got it.

 

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

I dont do human reasoning

In fact, that is all I have seen from you.

 

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

I'm going to guess english is not your first language?

 

1096 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another.

how many times must we go over this? If "become" out of the midst, then I am NO LONGER THERE.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, fixerupper said:

We are told that we're appointed to tribulation and persecution.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This is true of our every day afflictions. But we are talking of the wrath of God poured out on an unrepentant world. God is not going to make any appointments for us with His wrath. He has made a way to escape, and that escape is by way of rapture.  We get "salvation and get to live together with Him" while they get "sudden destruction." You can stay for the sudden destruction if you choose.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Lamad doesn't believe God's wrath is averted by Christ through repentance.  Lamad calls human reasoning by saying this is a removal from God's wrath by a rapture...

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ…

You are denying a pretrib rapture; while I am affirming it. Notice the CONTEXT:

1 Thes. 4 & 5

¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

² For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. ³ For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ⁴ But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. ⁵ You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. ⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. ⁷ For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. ⁸ But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. ⁹ For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ¹⁰ who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.  ¹¹ Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

Notice the parallels I have colored. Look at the red text: they are saying the same thing, but different words use.  Look at the green text: almost word for word.  Now look at the larger font: in chapter 5 Paul writes "to obtain salvation." IN CONTEXT this word "salvation" means being saved by way of the rapture. and notice, it is to deliver us from His wrath.  We will be delivered from His wrath by way of the rapture. 

All humans alive when Christ comes (pretrib) will have a choice: either be left behind for the sudden destruction, or be caught up.  This choice MUST be made ahead of time!  those that live in the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be caught up, get "salvation" and get to live together with Him.

By the way, no one is arguing that God's wrath is not in the vials of His wrath: any fifth grader could ascertain that. But the fact remains, those living at the 6th seal will experience the great earthquake, see the moon as blood red, and see the sun go dark - KNOW Joel 2 and Isaiah 2, and know they are seeing the SIGNS of the DAy of the Lord or the Day of His wrath. And John wrote it down that the day of His wrath has come. And this is before John even begins the 70th week  in his narrative.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Your theory is debunked by the 12 plus contradictions in pre-trib.  If my theory is bogus then so are the human reasoning words of Jesus...no fabrications required!
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This point has been argued almost indefinitely. Jesus was not speaking about Paul's rapture. No one has every proved He was. There simply is no proof. But there IS proof otherwise: this timing does not fit Paul's timing.

[fixerupper]

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This is true of our every day afflictions. But we are talking of the wrath of God poured out on an unrepentant world.

The world has always been unrepentative. To be saved from God's wrath has nothing to do with tribulational wrath, a pre-trib rapture, OR the tribulation. However, I can agree that part of the harvest that takes place in Revelation 14 is to remove God's elect before the vials are dispensed.  The elect is removed to prevent the elect from the deadly effects of the vials.  I do believe that from Revelation 11 on to the end there may be as little as 45-90 days left before the consumation of the age.

You must have missed the context of a passage I quoted about God's wrath...

John 3:35-36  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not (UN repented) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 5:8-9  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, (UNrepented) Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

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God is not going to make any appointments for us with His wrath.

That's correct.  But the argument with you guys is that you say that wrath is the tribulation period.  The bible is clear that wrath is exercised by God at judgement time and is the difference between heaven and hell, NOT whether we go through the tribulation or not.  I keep telling you that God's wrath is ONLY averted BY JESUS CHRIST THROUGH REPENTANCE.  

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He has made a way to escape, and that escape is by way of rapture.

He made us a way of escape alright.  It's too bad you guys confuse deliverance from a fiery hell with going through a tribulation period.  What makes you think you are more privileged than Daniel, Job, or Noah?  

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We get "salvation and get to live together with Him" while they get "sudden destruction." You can stay for the sudden destruction if you choose.

You're going to be here whether you like it or not.  You live in a pipe dream instead of scriptural reality.  NONE of us have a choice, we all go through tribulation.  That's when God needs us most.

Want to see the list of pre-trib fabrications and contradictions you've accepted?  ICQ!  

Edited July 7, 2017 by fixerupper

[fixerupper]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This point has been argued almost indefinitely. Jesus was not speaking about Paul's rapture. No one has every proved He was. There simply is no proof. But there IS proof otherwise: this timing does not fit Paul's timing.

You say that because the words of Jesus clearly debunk a pre-trib rapture, so you've created another rapture and another return of Christ to fix that contradiction!  You guys even say the last trump isn't the seventh trump, and have even changed the meaning of "the day of the Lord!" Fabricating stuff like it's going out of style and you just don't care.  Why?  Because you guys would have to admit you're wrong and the words,"I was wrong" is seldom found in a Christian's vocabulary.

Edited July 7, 2017 by fixerupper