Masterpiece Cakeshop Is Fighting For The First Amendment, Not Against Gay Marriage

[Flowerwater]

14 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

He is within his rights to refuse to do anything that violates his sincerely held beliefs.   And this is really just about some radical LGBT activists going after a known Christian baker.  It has nothing do with him discriminating against anyone.

And since he regularly serves gay people all of the time, you really have no argument.   Your line of reasoning is just nonsense.

I feel sorry for your perspective in advocating bigotry using religious conviction as an inroad. In this free country it won't pass. 

When the supremes prove that to activist groups that think to make Christians look as bad as LGBTQ think we are already, it'll be enough. 

[Flowerwater]

6 minutes ago, Thallasa said:

I agree , it is complete nonsense .

 Are all those verses nonsense that condemn bigotry? 

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Flowerwater said:

 

When this baker loses what then? 

He may very well win, but even if he loses, God is still sovereign.  He will likely simply stop making cakes for any special occasions, if I remember what he said, correctly.

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By your standard of belief, the KKK members who own businesses in Alabama and Kentucky and Georgia or anywhere at all, could refuse to serve a black person, a Hispanic person, certainly a gay person, a mixed race couple, by invoking their religious conviction.

No, they could not.  That is illegal, even today.   You really don't know what you're talking about.

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Do know also that if it did pass muster with the supreme court that Muslims could discriminate against non-Muslims. That was tried in Minneapolis by the cabbies who were Muslim and serving the local airport. They refused to pick up passengers that violated their religious beliefs in appearance. The cabbies lost. 

Muslims won't make gay wedding cakes, either.   Maybe you should visit your religious bigotry on them.

 

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See, you're arguing from the right to discriminate as a Christian.

No, I am not.  You're simply unable or unwilling to frame my arguments correctly.  You have misrepresented my position more than once, so far. 
 

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What you're not seeing is that if a decision was handed down that religious conviction permitted discrimination by the religious, every single religious person could discriminate at will. Atheists are a protected religious class now too. 

 

Except that this isn't a case of discrimination.   YOU completely ignore the fact that he regularly serves gay people.   You ignore than he has no problem with anyone regardless of their lifestyle patronizing his store.   Your arguments are in fact, bigoted and discriminatory and your arguments are the epitome of what you claim to be against.

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This isn't a Christian privilege thing. This would be a national chaos thing. Being that the religious and the non-religious but with religious protection could go at one another by refusing to provide the public service they're in business to provide everyone else but those they decide don't deserve to be served because it offends the religious conviction of the server. 

See, this the problem.  Religious freedom is what is at stake.   No one should be forced to violate their faith unless what they are doing crosses over into criminal activity (theft, "sacrifices" etc).    His religious freedom should not take a backseat to how someone else chooses to have sex.  

This is nothing but radical LGBT activists looking to persecute Christians and nothing more.   He didn't pick this fight and he has never denied service to gay people in his store.

Your argument is a waste of time.

[Flowerwater]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

 

No, they could not.  That is illegal, even today.   You really don't know what you're talking about .

 

That's easy to say when the indefensible argument upholding bigotry in the name of Christ lost the first time it spoke. 

 

Gay marriage is licensed by the state. The same state that licenses that baker to operate his bakery.  When that baker signed that business license he agreed to uphold the laws of commerce and public accommodation set forth by the state. 

He's in breach when he refuses to serve a particular customer because they are following a lifestyle he objects to on religious grounds.

If he wants to take that position he should sell his business in order to follow the Lord and not be a hypocrite.  If he was genuine in his religious conviction argument he'd not make a wedding cake for a divorcee remarrying. "How would he know that they're a divorcee?" He'd inquire! In order to prosecute his faith consistently. And if the person ordering that wedding cake said they were a divorcee, he'd refuse to make that cake. Because remarrying while the divorced spouse is still alive is against God's word. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

9 minutes ago, Flowerwater said:

How would he know they were gay at all until they asked for a wedding cake? How does someone identify a gay person is gay on sight? Is there a neon sign on their forehead labeling them as gay?

That makes my point.  He doesn't care if they are gay or not.  He doesn't check or ask because he simply wants to sell his products. He probably sells to satanists and Buddhists and Hindu and whoever else walks in the door.   That completely torpedoes your baseless accusation of bigotry.   If he were a bigot, he would make it clear who is or is not welcome at his store.

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And when the baker then realizes that customer who's patronized his shop for months is gay , refuses to serve that customer that order, that's discrimination. That's bigotry. The weak excuse is to clad it in religious conviction. And that insults Christ and the entire word of God. 

False.   Number one he is within his right to refuse any service that requires him to participate even indirectly in something that violates his sincerely held belief.  That is constitutionally protected.

Number two, holding to doctrinal and theological purity and remaining dedicated to serving God through his business and holding to the principle of holiness is actually a principle in Scripture:

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
(Eph 5:8-13)

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Tit 2:11-14)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
(Php 2:12-15)

There is nothing, no sphere of our lives that is outside the reach of God's word.  There is no aspect of our lives that are not under the sovereign governance of the principles and precepts of Scripture.  Every part of our life should be holy unto the Lord and wholly His.   He is sovereign over all we have and all that we are.   That is true even if it goes against the laws of the state.   It really all depends on whether or not Gods' word is the final authority in your life, or not.

 

[Guest Thallasa]

13 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

So, if one acts according to their faith and refuses to bake a cake for a gay couple's wedding, they are misguided and wrong?  You are going to have to explain to me exactly why that is since we know, scripturally that homosexuality is wrong and we are not supposed to be endorsing it in any way.  We also know, psychologically, that homosexuality is a serious mental disorder so we also must not encourage it in any way, pathologically.  Your opinion flies directly against what is best for the people in this scenario trapped in both a sinful, and health-damaging lifestyle.  How is this helpful to them?

 I don't think that it is helpful to ones own soul to be forced to comply with , what is evidently.an open attack on ones conscience . In fact this kind of thing and how we deal with it , is how God is testing us .

 

[Flowerwater]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

That makes my point.  He doesn't care if they are gay or not.   

No, that doesn't make your point. In fact you defeat your point by claiming the baker doesn't care if they're gay or not. He does care that they're gay when asking him to bake them a wedding cake  because they're gay and asking for a cake for their wedding. 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Flowerwater said:

That's easy to say when the indefensible argument upholding bigotry in the name of Christ lost the first time it spoke.

You still have not made a case for bigotry.  If anything your arguments display an atrocious amount of religious bigotry.

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Gay marriage is licensed by the state. The same state that licenses that baker to operate his bakery.  When that baker signed that business license he agreed to uphold the laws of commerce and public accommodation set forth by the state. 

And not making a gay wedding cake for a gay ceremony that violates his faith is not a breach.   He is still serving gay people and doesn't refuse them service in his store.

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He's in breach when he refuses to serve a particular customer because they are following a lifestyle he objects to on religious grounds.

Yes, and he has not done that.   He serves all kinds of people whose lifestyles he objects to, on a regular basis.

 

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If he wants to take that position he should sell his business in order to follow the Lord and not be a hypocrite.

He is not being hypocrite and you clearly don't understand what it means to be hypocrite.

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 If he was genuine in his religious conviction argument he'd not make a wedding cake for a divorcee remarrying. "How would he know that they're a divorcee?" He'd inquire! In order to prosecute his faith consistently. And if the person ordering that wedding cake said they were a divorcee, he'd refuse to make that cake. Because remarrying while the divorced spouse is still alive is against God's word. 

Divorce is not a sin.  God has made provision for divorce in Scripture.

[simplejeff]

23 minutes ago, Flowerwater said:

How would he know they were gay at all until they asked for a wedding cake?

There's always demons present.   Oppressing the mind/ soul/ spirit.

 

So same way to know as the Apostles and disciples all knew the evil spirit in this example for believers>

Study Bible

Paul and Silas Imprisoned
…17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” 18She continued this for many days. Eventually Paul grew so aggravated that he turned and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” And the spirit left her at that very moment. 19When the girl’s owners saw that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them before the authorities in the marketplace.…

Berean Study Bible · Download

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Flowerwater said:

No, that doesn't make your point. In fact you defeat your point by claiming the baker doesn't care if they're gay or not. He does care that they're gay when asking him to bake them a wedding cake  because they're gay and asking for a cake for their wedding. 

 

Wrong again.   The fact that he willingly serves gays, whether he knows they are gay or not defeats your silly, inane bigotry argument.   If A satanist came in and wanted a satanic wedding cake for a satanist wedding, he would likely refuse them, as well.   He might serve them in other ways, but not to participate indirectly in their ceremony. 

Since this is limited only to ceremony, and since most of the gay community doesn't care if he makes a gay wedding cake or not, this is not a case of bigotry.   The couple that came to his store were radical LGBT activists and the radical LGBT community wants more than tolerance.  They want to force everyone, especially Christians to be forced to accommodate their lifestyle or face prosecution and punitive measures.   That is where the bigotry and discrimination is taking place.