According to the word of God, there will be no Rapture!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If that's what pretribbers put forth as an explanation as to where the great multitude of martyrs comes, they should keep in mind the rich man and Lazarus:

• But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’  But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’  But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’  Luke 16:29-31

If people do not listen to and act on the teachings of Jesus, they will not be persuaded to repent even if they behold the rapture.  They will have built their house on the sand. 

The story of the rich man and Lazurus illustrates the CHASM. It has nothing to do with  the martyrs coming out of the tribulation!  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Reinitin said:

im not sure but one of me pretrib friends (who is a christian I love dearly) gave me the left behind series to read. mostly cause i know the Lord is coming but i dont have a clear view of the great mystery. she thought it would clear things up for me.

The main character was cheating on his wife when the Lord came. so he repented after the church was Gone and was a witness in the tribulation he had a horrible time of it, but the Lord provided.  

Dont judge all people who are pre trib by your friends actions  who obviously knows nothing about end time prophecy! I certainly would never ever give anyone a movie created in hellywood to explain Gods  prophecy on WRATH. 

The only thing that will clear up your questions is to study the word of God allowing God to guide and teach you. 

Which btw, the great mystery has nothing to do with the tribulation. 

John MacArthur writes:a great mystery. In the NT, mystery identifies some reality hidden in the past and revealed in the NT age to be written in Scripture. Marriage is a sacred reflection of the magnificent and beautiful mystery of union between the Messiah and His church, completely unknown until the NT.

[Reinitin]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

People can, and do, believe whatever they choose, for whatever reason seems good to them.  What they, and I, choose to believe has no bearing on how things will come to pass.  Things will come to pass according to the word of God.  The Holy Spirit will show us the things to come.  To insist that we have an absolutely correct eschatology closes the door to the Spirit's reproof, and I see that as a dangerous mindset, regardless of your views.  Ours is to persevere in the faith.  The Holy Spirit will correct our misconceptions as we go, if we haven't let our intellectual pride silence Him.

Amen, the Lord has pre ordained and prophecied times and season from begining to the end. His Word will be established whether we understand or not. He will do all he has said. Praise the Lord 

[Reinitin]

4 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Dont judge all people who are pre trib by your friends actions  who obviously knows nothing about end time prophecy! I certainly would never ever give anyone a movie created in hellywood to explain Gods  prophecy on WRATH. 

The only thing that will clear up your questions is to study the word of God allowing God to guide and teach you. 

Which btw, the great mystery has nothing to do with the tribulation. 

John MacArthur writes:a great mystery. In the NT, mystery identifies some reality hidden in the past and revealed in the NT age to be written in Scripture. Marriage is a sacred reflection of the magnificent and beautiful mystery of union between the Messiah and His church, completely unknown until the NT.

I think Jesus saves us not our knowledge. I know many in Christ with different Doctrins. She did not give me a movie. She gave me the books by a christian author who wrote a fictional senerio of pre trib doctrin played out. clergy helped with doctrinal truth. the book is ment as a withnessing tool. like cs lewis stories or The Shake.

[Reinitin]

37 minutes ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Dont judge all people who are pre trib by your friends actions  who obviously knows nothing about end time prophecy! I certainly would never ever give anyone a movie created in hellywood to explain Gods  prophecy on WRATH. 

The only thing that will clear up your questions is to study the word of God allowing God to guide and teach you. 

Which btw, the great mystery has nothing to do with the tribulation. 

John MacArthur writes:a great mystery. In the NT, mystery identifies some reality hidden in the past and revealed in the NT age to be written in Scripture. Marriage is a sacred reflection of the magnificent and beautiful mystery of union between the Messiah and His church, completely unknown until the NT.

I dont pray to know it or study it. I pray and study to spend time with my Lord and know my Father. The more I know him the quicker I see false witness of him and know what to pray. Holy spirit has never put a burden on me to know. Im sure if he wants to quicken me on it he will and  when im witnessing he does. I have absolutly no problem not knowing. It bugs other people not me.

I do believe it is a topic where we have been given partial knowledge not full knowledge. That is why there are so many doctrins and people that choose a doctrin dismiss all the evidence that is a witness to them they only have partial knowledge. I like to read the differnt doctrins cause they all have some valid support. who knows if the Lord is willing i will see how all the pieves fit together.

There is still an angel in revelation that the angel of the Lord told John to seal his words. Big hint revelation has not revealed all things to us.

I really think some people have justifued partial truth by twisting the meaning of "Now we now in part". Paul was humble enough to recognize even he was only given partial truth about some things.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Reinitin

[Heleadethme]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:57 PM, Montana Marv said:

You need to read John 14: 2-4 -- In my Fathers house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you.  I am going there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.  

Here we see that Jesus is going to take us up into Heaven which is the dwelling place of the Father.  For this is where Jesus is now.

Rapture is not in the Bible, but Harpozo is, which is translated as Rapture.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Amen, that is a wonderful verse to be reminded of.........and so shall we ever be with the Lord after we are caught up in the air with Him.  And Jesus said to pray that God's will be done and that His kingdom would come on earth as it is in heaven......which will begin at the reign of Christ, when New Jerusalem cometh down out of where..?  out of HEAVEN.

[Reinitin]

4 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Because there are pages and pages and Thread upon Thread explaining the Rapture. Most of us don't feel the need to do the research within this forum in order to "teach" someone who has seen the Truth but has decided that he knows better than EVERYBODY ELSE. That is why.

bible tells us studying to verify all some one says to us is a good thing for us to do. No where does the bible tell us to only look at the verse put in front of us and blindly follow what we are told. We are also warned of a great deception in the last days and to remain viligant. 

Bringing up scriptures that creates a conflict with what is being taught is following biblical instruction to let scripture interprate scripture. Both respected sides of the debate are doing what we are suppose to do.

 If you have studied and are a teacher of end time events and can usurp the authority in judgement of your brothers nature, you should be able to put his scriptures into context with your scripture to reveal truth instead of just posting scriptures that create a conflict with his scriptures and him posting scriptures that create conflict for your scriptutes then calling your brother who is trying to do what we are told to do, a liar.

I understand you may of made up your mind and he may of made up his mind on the timeline of end time events. But that is not a salvation issue. Calling your brother an idiot or fool or liar does have possible salvation related warnings. honestly the biblical instruction of evidence for dicerning false teachers is by their fruit. Calling a brother a liar is a thorn a ligitament bibelical evidence to idenitify a false teacher. Bringing up cotradicting scriptures for clarity is not biblical evidence of false teachers.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Reinitin

[Bro.Tan]

7 hours ago, eileenhat said:

First Bro Tan, some scriptures, with a site's explanation of them, regarding the significance of 'white clothing' in Revelation.

https://www.thisisyourbible.com/index.php?page=questions&task=show&mediaid=2788

title: "White clothes meaning in Revelation 3.18

 

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
�
Gold represents faith which is tried by affliction in this life. 
�
White clothing represents righteousness which is the successful outcome of a tried faith. 
�
The bride will be presented freed from sin, without spot or blemish, her righteousness imputed by faith." end excerpt

 

........

.

Re: White Clothing as a sign

 

I myself see it as a sign of someone being pure of sin.

The question then is "How could someone live on Earth and be clothed in white?"

The answer as complicated, I've been told here, to understand as it has been understood until recently (by me at least) that Revelations was thought to be explaining a tribulation period and a rapture type event, but God revealed to me that Revelations is ONLY about the resurrecting of people....as seen clearly (first off) in Rev. 20:4** and later revealed as a 'glorified' body in 1 Corinth. 15*.

 

 

*"Question: "How does the Bible describe the glorified bodies we will possess in Heaven?"

Answer: While the Bible doesn’t describe in detail the glorified bodies we will receive in heaven, we know that they will be like that of Jesus’ resurrected body. Our human bodies are described in 1 Corinthians 15:42–53 as perishable, dishonorable, and weak, all due to sin. Our glorified bodies will be imperishable, honorable, and powerful. Our new bodies will be no longer “natural” bodies, but “spiritual” bodies, no longer focused upon the natural senses but at one with the Holy Spirit.".

source:https://www.gotquestions.org/glorified-bodies.html

 

 

**"King James Bible, Rev. 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

And Rev. 19:8
�
Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

 

Hi...there no where, no place in Bible from Genesis to Revelation that talk about people from earth that will dwell in Heaven where Jesus and the Father is. Lets go into Psalm 132: 4 I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, 5 Until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob. 6 Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah: we found it in the fields of the wood. 7 We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. 8 Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength. 9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy. 10 For thy servant David’s sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. 11 The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

The Lord continue to tell us that he going to dwell on Earth forever. There are many that will be alive at that day to hear and see the “Big bang” in reality, and not in theory, and see it happing. Will you be ready to meet Jesus at that time? Jesus is the God and creator of Heaven and Earth. He will rule on this earth at the time appointed. All of that, which he created on the earth in the beginning, including man, will be here when he returns.

[Bro.Tan]

Remember, the children of Israel are the Priests of the Most High God his plan is to scatter them among the nations where they will be forced to serve false gods and digest false doctrine; insomuch, as they will demand of their teachers to tell them smooth things and to prophecy deceits. This will lead them into tribulation, even in the latter days. Even so, the Lord said that for those who seek him, no matter where they may find themselves and be obedient unto his voice, he would not forsake them. He would then prolong their days upon the earth. The Lord did not state he would take man to Heaven to save him from Tribulation.

The Prophet Zephaniah speaks of the Day of the Lord and a time of trouble, but says nothing of the Lord taking you to heaven to avoid it. (Zephaniah 1:14-18) “The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land."

(Zephaniah 2:1-3) ^"Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger." Zephaniah speaks of possibly being hid from the Lords anger; let's see where he's talking about being hid at. 

Lets go into (Hosea 2:14-23) “Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Anchor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, "that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; and the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.” 

The prophet David tells you what you will see and what to expect in the wilderness.

(Psalm 91:1-1) "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; or for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; there shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling, for he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways."

This where the people of God will be during the great tribulation, in the wilderness. All we have to do is read the book, people!   Revelation 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Reinitin said:

bible tells us studying to verify all some one says to us is a good thing for us to do. No where does the bible tell us to only look at the verse put in front of us and blindly follow what we are told. We are also warned of a great deception in the last days and to remain viligant. 

Bringing up scriptures that creates a conflict with what is being taught is following biblical instruction to let scripture interprate scripture. Both respected sides of the debate are doing what we are suppose to do.

 If you have studied and are a teacher of end time events and can usurp the authority in judgement of your brothers nature, you should be able to put his scriptures into context with your scripture to reveal truth instead of just posting scriptures that create a conflict with his scriptures and him posting scriptures that create conflict for your scriptutes then calling your brother who is trying to do what we are told to do, a liar.

I understand you may of made up your mind and he may of made up his mind on the timeline of end time events. But that is not a salvation issue. Calling your brother an idiot or fool or liar does have possible salvation related warnings. honestly the biblical instruction of evidence for dicerning false teachers is by their fruit. Calling a brother a liar is a thorn a ligitament bibelical evidence to idenitify a false teacher. Bringing up cotradicting scriptures for clarity is not biblical evidence of false teachers.

The Bible isn’t such a complex document that it requires years of formal education before you can begin to comprehend it. I’ve always believed the Bible was meant to be understood by any believer who can read and has a serious interest in knowing what it says. I say this because I believe the Bible is best approached by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit rather than one’s own intellect. James 1:5 says that any of us who lacks wisdom need only ask God who gives generously to all without finding fault.

Conversely the man without the Spirit cannot accept the things that come from the Spirit of God regardless of his mental prowess. (1 Cor. 2:14) This is why we hear of people who tried to read the Bible as non-believers and found they couldn’t figure it out, but as soon as they were born again it began to make sense. They didn’t suddenly become more intelligent, they simply gained the supernatural insight of the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things. (John 14:26) Over the 35 years or so I’ve been studying the Bible I’ve picked up a handful of principles that have also given me a better understanding of what it says. They help keep me honest so I know it’s the Holy Spirit teaching me, and not just my sin infested intellect coming to its own conclusion.

 The Golden Rule of Interpretation: “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” (Dr. D.L. Cooper) This hasn’t become known as the Golden Rule of Interpretation for nothing. If you ignore all the others and only follow this one rule you will avoid almost all the mistakes people make in reading the Bible. And the next one is like it, sort of an expanded version of the first.

 Literal, Historical, Grammatical, Contextual: These could be called the most important words in Biblical Hermeneutics, which is the science of properly interpreting the Bible. Literal means that each word is given the same exact basic meaning it would have in normal, ordinary, customary usage, whether employed in writing, speaking or thinking. Unless it’s clearly indicated otherwise, we’re to assume the Bible means exactly what it says. Examples of passages that are not intended to be taken literally are parables, dreams, and visions. These are all identified as such, alerting us to the fact that they’re meant to be understood symbolically.

Historical means that each passage is put into its proper historical setting and surrounded with the thoughts, attitudes, and feelings prevalent at the time of its writing. In Biblical times the Jewish view of the Messiah was one of a charismatic leader like King David. In other words, a man, not God in human form. Knowing that helps us understand how they failed to recognize Him, and why they accused Him of blasphemy when He claimed to be God.

Grammatical means that words are given meanings consistent with their common understanding in the original language at the time of writing. Grammatical interpretation also includes following recognized rules of grammar and in its more advanced form, applying the nuances of the Hebrew and Greek languages to the understanding of a passage. A good example showing the importance of following the rules of grammar can found in Daniel 9:27 where the subject of the first sentence in the verse is a personal pronoun. “He will confirm a covenant with (the) many.” The rule of grammar regarding personal pronouns is that they refer to the closest preceding personal noun. In this case it’s “the ruler who will come” in verse 26 indicating that the person who will confirm the covenant with Israel is the anti-Christ, not the Lord as some commentators’ assert.

Contextual interpretation involves always taking the surrounding context of a verse/passage into consideration when trying to determine its meaning. The Holy Spirit has usually prompted the Bible’s writers to place indicators in the text surrounding a passage to guide you in interpreting it. In 1 Cor. 9:24-27 Paul compares our life to that of an athlete, training and competing for crowns. The mention of crowns tells us the passage is not about salvation, which is a free gift, but rewards believers can win after being saved. (In this case it’s the crown of victory, awarded to those who overcome the ways of the flesh by getting rid of selfish desires, bad habits and attitudes, etc.) When you stop to think about it, reading the Bible this way actually makes perfect sense. If you received a letter from a friend you wouldn’t have to be reminded to apply these principles. You would naturally assume that your friend was using words that meant the same thing to both of you. You would understand them within the parameters of your shared history, you would assume that the rules of grammar you had both been taught applied, and you would interpret what was written within the context of your relationship. You would expect your friend to alert you if any of these assumptions were not going to apply, and explain the reason for it. The only difference with the Bible is that it was written over a long period of time, during which the meanings of some words changed, and society is generally different now than it was when the Bible was written. This makes books on Bible history and a good concordance valuable additions to your library.

Expositional Constancy: This is a fancy term to remind us that symbolism in scripture tends to be consistent. For example, throughout the Bible “leaven”, or yeast, is used symbolically to stand for sin. Therefore, there’s no justification for claiming that in the Parable of the Yeast (Matt. 13:33) and there alone, it stands for the Gospel. Expositional Constancy only applies to words that are used symbolically, so be careful. Peter’s statement in 2 Peter 3:9 that with the Lord a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day does not justify substituting 1000 years for a day every time it comes up. Peter was simply explaining that the Lord’s concept of time is way different from ours.

 Internal Consistency: The Bible, being the word of God, cannot contradict itself. The Lord is just and righteous so He can’t say something in one place and something different in another. He knows the end from the beginning so He can’t change His mind or take back something He’s given. Everything He says has to agree with everything else He says. For example, if the Bible says it’s God who makes us stand firm in Christ, that He anointed us, set His seal of ownership on us and put His Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee of what’s to come (2 Cor. 1:21-22), then it can’t say that we can walk away from our salvation or have it taken away from us someplace else.

Principle of First Mention: Often when an important concept is mentioned for the first time there is elevated significance in the context of the passage in which it appears. The first mention of the Church is in Matt.16:18 where Peter declared that Jesus is the Messiah, son of the living God. Jesus said that this truth would be the foundation upon which He would build His Church. Notice who’s going to be doing the building and whose Church it is. Studying the passage where an important concept first appears can be very helpful in interpreting subsequent passages on the same subject.

Use Clear Passages to Interpret Obscure Ones: Some passages of Scripture are more difficult to interpret correctly than others. When confronting one of these, it’s best to locate the clearest verses on the subject and use them to help interpret the difficult one. A classic example is Hebrews 6:4-6 which, when taken alone, seems to say that we can fall away and lose our salvation, and if that should happen we can never get it back. But the clearest verses on salvation are Ephesians 1:13-14 and 2 Cor. 1:21-22, and they plainly state the opposite. The Ephesians passage says we were included in Christ when we first heard and believed the gospel. Having believed we were sealed with the Holy Spirit, a deposit that guarantees our inheritance. In 2 Corinthians Paul went even further saying that God himself has accepted responsibility for making us stand firm in Christ and has set His seal of ownership on us, like a rancher brands his cattle. Applying the principles above we must conclude that the writer to Hebrews had to be talking about something else. When we look at the context of the letter, we find that it was written to Jewish believers who were being lured back into the Levitical system, which used the sacrifice of a lamb to atone for sins. For the Church, the Lord’s death fulfilled what the sacrifice only symbolized, so going back to this was tantamount to sacrificing Him all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace, because by their actions they were saying that His death was not sufficient to atone for their sins. And as if that wasn’t bad enough, going back to the sacrifice was no longer acceptable to God because the Law was only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the realities themselves. For that reason, it could never make perfect those who draw near to worship no matter how many times they repeated it. (Hebr. 10:1) But when the Lord offered His sacrifice once for all time, He made perfect forever those who are being made holy (Hebr. 10:12-14) During the Church Age all we have to do after sinning is confess our sins to receive forgiveness, be brought back to repentance, and be purified from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9) Now Hebrews 6:4-6 makes sense because it conforms to the internal consistency of God’s Word.

There are lots of other rules and principles man has developed for application to God’s word, but in my opinion if we just apply the ones I’ve listed above we’ll stand a good chance of avoiding the errors and misinterpretations that seem to be so common these days. The Bible is quite simply the most amazing book ever written. Some parts of it were written at least 4000 years ago, and by 95AD its most recent chapters were finished. But according to Paul it was written to teach us, upon whom the end of the age has come. (Romans 15:4, 1 Cor. 10:11) If we’ll just read it the way we would any other document, as if it means what it says, the Holy Spirit will reveal wondrous truths from within its pages. Truths that will give us an anchor against the storms of deceit and controversy that have become so common in our time.