Lucifers creation and rebellion.

[HAZARD]

23 hours ago, GusWilby said:

Your question here invalidates itself.... if you believe God was in eternity past, it wouldn’t matter if He’d started creating 6000 years ago or 6million years ago- He was still in eternity past from any starting point.  He still had an eternity “doing nothing” based on the logic of your question. You could ask that same question based on any starting point. There’s no answer to that because no one knows what His activities were prior to creation...

 

There are at least 2 trillion galaxies in the "observable" universe, containing more stars than all the grains of sand on planet Earth. 

 "as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."

The word "observable" used in this sense does not refer to the capability of modern technology to detect light or other information from an object, or whether there is anything to be detected. It refers to the physical limit created by the speed of light itself. Because no signals can travel faster than light, any object further away from us than light could travel in the age of the universe (estimated as of 2015 around 7010137990000000000♠13.799±0.021 billion years) simply cannot be detected, as they have not reached us yet.

"In the beginning God created the heaven, not 6000 years ago God created the heaven and the earth." There was a huge gap between "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and, The earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

"Darkness," what happened to the sun, moon, stars, galaxies, created in the beginning?

2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:

But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Peter also said these scoffers were / and now also, are willingly ignorant.

 

Help me out here Gus, What were the scoffers Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:5-7, willingly ignorant of, in your opinion?

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Question?

1. Gen. 1:1, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2. John 1:1, In he beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God.

Which came first?

The Word, God is an eternal being, always was, always will be. Do people really believe He sat around for eternity past doing nothing and then decided to start creating about 6000 years ago?

This is called itchy ears.... we have enough to contemplate in His Word alone rather than go outside of it to the fantasy of the mind!

[1to3]

20 hours ago, HAZARD said:

seeing he was already a fallen creature when he entered Adams Eden?

no he was not yet a fallen angel when he walked in eden.

Ezekiel 28:14

…13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.…

Lucifer had a right to earth even before he fell from Gods grace.

I believe in how the bible explains things.

After the completion of creation. on the six day, God said everything was ***good***. On the seventh Day God rested. -inactivity-

Genesis 1:31

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God

The book of Genesis records that a personal, all-knowing, all-powerful God created everything that existed. The Bible emphasizes that the Lord is the Creator of ALL things.

Nature Of God

We learn something else about the character of God from the words used in Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew noun translated God is plural while the verb translated created is singular. This is the first indication in Scripture that God is a Trinity. The Trinity can be simply defined as follows: within the nature of the one God there are three eternal Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three distinct Persons are the one God. Jesus spoke of the three Persons of the Trinity.

 

The fall of Lucifer came after the seven day creation period.

In the beginning it was just God the Father,Son,Spirit. Look to John chapter 1.

During the period of CREATION God created the universe, the heavens and earth. In that time frame God created the Angels.

And that time frame is in the 7 Day creation, of ALL, that God created. Before that, it was Just God the Father, Son, Spirit.

 

Genesis 1:31

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was*** very goodvery good ***. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

And on the seventh Day God rested.

if Lucifer had fallen from Grace before the six day, then god could not say that ***ALL***was good.

 

It is after that ALL was good that problems occured.

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, 1to3 said:

no he was not yet a fallen angel when he walked in eden.

Ezekiel 28:14

…13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.…

Lucifer had a right to earth even before he fell from Gods grace.

I believe in how the bible explains things.

After the completion of creation. on the six day, God said everything was ***good***. On the seventh Day God rested. -inactivity-

Genesis 1:31

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God

The book of Genesis records that a personal, all-knowing, all-powerful God created everything that existed. The Bible emphasizes that the Lord is the Creator of ALL things.

Nature Of God

We learn something else about the character of God from the words used in Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew noun translated God is plural while the verb translated created is singular. This is the first indication in Scripture that God is a Trinity. The Trinity can be simply defined as follows: within the nature of the one God there are three eternal Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three distinct Persons are the one God. Jesus spoke of the three Persons of the Trinity.

 

The fall of Lucifer came after the seven day creation period.

In the beginning it was just God the Father,Son,Spirit. Look to John chapter 1.

During the period of CREATION God created the universe, the heavens and earth. In that time frame God created the Angels.

And that time frame is in the 7 Day creation, of ALL, that God created. Before that, it was Just God the Father, Son, Spirit.

 

Genesis 1:31

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was*** very goodvery good ***. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

And on the seventh Day God rested.

if Lucifer had fallen from Grace before the six day, then god could not say that ***ALL***was good.

 

It is after that ALL was good that problems occured.

Ezekiel 28:14, speaks of Lucifer and the position he had before iniquity, (sin),  was found in him

He was a fallen creature when he entered Adams Eden because he accused God of telling lies and telling Eve they would not in fact die, but the would be like God's if they ate of the forbidden fruit. Satan entered Adams Eden with the intention of usurping Adams God given role to rule the Earth which Satan had lost when iniquity was found in him and he invaded Heaven to try and dethrone God. He did in fact succeed and Adam was cast out of the garden and an angel with a flaming sword was placed at the tree of life to guard it and stop Adam having access to it while in sin.  

Only a lier, the father of lies would accuse God of lying. In John 8:44 Jesus says he is the father of lies, "for he is a liar, and the father of it."

God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the forbidden fruit they would die,

Gen. 2:17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Satan through the serpent said,

Gen. 3:4-5;  V. 4, And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

V. 5, For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

This is called itchy ears.... we have enough to contemplate in His Word alone rather than go outside of it to the fantasy of the mind!

Not very helpful, as usual empty words, no Scriptures,  in complete denial as always.

2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:

But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Peter also said these scoffers were / and now also, are willingly ignorant.

 

What were the scoffers Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:5-7, willingly ignorant of, in your opinion ???????

[1to3]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

2 hours ago, 1to3 said:

no he was not yet a fallen angel when he walked in Eden.

Ezekiel 28:14

…13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.…

Lucifer had a right to earth even before he fell from Gods grace.

I believe in how the bible explains things.

After the completion of creation. on the six day, God said everything was ***good***. On the seventh Day God rested. -inactivity-

Genesis 1:31

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God

The book of Genesis records that a personal, all-knowing, all-powerful God created everything that existed. The Bible emphasizes that the Lord is the Creator of ALL things.

Nature Of God

We learn something else about the character of God from the words used in Genesis 1:1. The Hebrew noun translated God is plural while the verb translated created is singular. This is the first indication in Scripture that God is a Trinity. The Trinity can be simply defined as follows: within the nature of the one God there are three eternal Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three distinct Persons are the one God. Jesus spoke of the three Persons of the Trinity.

 

The fall of Lucifer came after the seven day creation period.

In the beginning it was just God the Father,Son,Spirit. Look to John chapter 1.

During the period of CREATION God created the universe, the heavens and earth. In that time frame God created the Angels.

And that time frame is in the 7 Day creation, of ALL, that God created. Before that, it was Just God the Father, Son, Spirit.

 

Genesis 1:31

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was*** very goodvery good ***. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

And on the seventh Day God rested.

if Lucifer had fallen from Grace before the six day, then god could not say that ***ALL***was good.

 

It is after that ALL was good that problems occured.

Ezekiel 28:14, speaks of Lucifer and the position he had before iniquity, (sin),  was found in him

He was a fallen creature when he entered Adams Eden because he accused God of telling lies and telling Eve they would not in fact die, but the would be like God's if they ate of the forbidden fruit. Satan entered Adams Eden with the intention of usurping Adams God given role to rule the Earth which Satan had lost when iniquity was found in him and he invaded Heaven to try and dethrone God. He did in fact succeed and Adam was cast out of the garden and an angel with a flaming sword was placed at the tree of life to guard it and stop Adam having access to it while in sin.  

Only a lier, the father of lies would accuse God of lying. In John 8:44 Jesus says he is the father of lies, "for he is a liar, and the father of it."

God told Adam and Eve if they ate of the forbidden fruit they would die,

Gen. 2:17, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Satan through the serpent said,

Gen. 3:4-5;  V. 4, And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

V. 5, For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

From what I understand from reading Ezekiel 28:14

Lucifer ( the name given to the highest of cherubs before his fall) as an appointed cherub to Eden and Gods most high mountain was walking in Gods mountain as well as walking through Eden before his fall from Grace when God banished (Lucifer) now called satan to earth. Satan knew where Eden was because he had been there as a Cherub before his own fall from Grace.

 

 

In the beginning of the sentence in Ezekiel ch28:14 it mentions how finely dressed he -lucifer - was, well that was lucifer before his fall, after his fall he no longer was beautiful, he no longer possessed the beauty God had originally given him. Satan was reduced to nothing and represented himself to Eve as a serpent.

Edited November 27, 2017 by 1to3

[HAZARD]

17 hours ago, 1to3 said:

From what I understand from reading Ezekiel 28:14

Lucifer ( the name given to the highest of cherubs before his fall) as an appointed cherub to Eden and Gods most high mountain was walking in Gods mountain as well as walking through Eden before his fall from Grace when God banished (Lucifer) now called satan to earth. Satan knew where Eden was because he had been there as a Cherub before his own fall from Grace.

 

 

In the beginning of the sentence in Ezekiel ch28:14 it mentions how finely dressed he -lucifer - was, well that was lucifer before his fall, after his fall he no longer was beautiful, he no longer possessed the beauty God had originally given him. Satan was reduced to nothing and represented himself to Eve as a serpent.

Gen. 3:14-15. V. 14, And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
   

V. 15, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The devil made a pact with the serpent to try and deceive Adam and Eve and take back control of the earth. This is why God cursed the serpent because he was the first to yield to Satan to cause the fall of man. The devil was too wise to begin with the very head of the re created earth. He began instead with the highest  of animal creation, who lived with Adam and Eve before the fall. He made a league with Lucifer and started opposition to God's Word, which has been Satan's sphere of activity ever since.

The serpent was cursed above all creatures and was to go upon his belly and eat dust all the days of his life (Isa. 65:25). He was deprived of walking upright and of his speech and he became a poisonous loathsome creature, despised by man whom he had betrayed and deceived (2 Cor. 11:3; 1 Tim 2:14).

The serpent was not the personal devil and never could be, but merely a tool of the devil and a creature of the field which God had made as proved by Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

No statement in Scripture ever teaches that Satan as an angel can turn into a literal serpent or any other creature. The curse upon the serpent continues upon literal snakes even in the Millennium when the curse is removed from all other animals (Isa. 65:25). If a literal serpent was not involved in the fall of man, why should it be cursed above all other creatures?

Eve was acquainted with the literal serpent in the garden, but she knew nothing of the devil; so if a strange person had appeared to her she would have been afraid to converse with him. The serpent was literal and Eve was acquainted with him and most likely had talked with him on other occasions.

[simplejeff]

e.w.bullinger "When Satan is spoken of as a "serpent", it is the figure Hypocatastasis or Implication; it no more means a snake than it does when Dan is so called .... "

i.e. : the devil IS the serpent ("called", not appearing as a snake, no)  in genesis,  verified by the studies of others and of  e.w.bullinger

key adjective from original:  "shining one"

for reference: (untested though) >

Kindgdom Bible Studies The Heavens Declarehttps://www.godfire.net/eby/2/HD/HD15.htm - CachedWhen Satan is spoken of as a serpent it no more means a literal snake than when Dan is so called in Genesis 49:17. "Dan shall judge his people, as one of the ...

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

e.w.bullinger "When Satan is spoken of as a "serpent", it is the figure Hypocatastasis or Implication; it no more means a snake than it does when Dan is so called .... "

i.e. : the devil IS the serpent ("called", not appearing as a snake, no)  in genesis,  verified by the studies of others and of  e.w.bullinger

key adjective from original:  "shining one"

Forget what e.w.bullinger or any one else assumes, stick to the Holy Truthful Word of God which clearly and plainly teaches;

Gen. 3:14-15. V. 14, And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Read this again;

The serpent was a "BEAST OF THE FIELD" which the Lord God and made.

The serpent in Gen. 3:1 was not called, Lucifer, Satan or the Devil, it was a beast, an animal, which God, because of what it did, cursed all the days of its life, and the curse will remain upon all snakes even throughout the Millennium, when the curse on animals is lifted on all other creatures (Isa. 65:25).

Isa. 65: 25, The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD. (Satan will be locked up in hell during the millennium, not crawling upon the earth eating dust? )

Gen 3:1, Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.  And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Remember this, Christ called Peter Satan, that didn't make him Satan.

Mark 8: 33, But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

[1to3]

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The devil made a pact with the serpent to try and deceive Adam and Eve and take back control of the earth. This is why God cursed the serpent because he was the first to yield to Satan to cause the fall of man.

Yes I like the way you explain it. Yes that makes sense that the devil-fallen Lucifer- would do that in order to get to Adam through Eve.

 

20 hours ago, 1to3 said:

Satan was reduced to nothing and represented himself to Eve as a serpent.

Edited 19 hours ago by 1to3

Sorry if I made it sound that Lucifer now was reduced to being a serpent. That is not what I meant , I meant he either came in disguise as a serpent or better put like you mentioned, he convinced-possessed- the serpent to do his bidding so to speak with Eve in the garden of Eden. 

Lucifer after the fall was stripped of his beauty and reduces to some kind of ugly,entity, angel.  satan and his demons can posses unsaved people and he can oppress Christians who need some cleaning up to do of their walk/relationship with god through His Son Christ Jesus.

But what I was originally pointing out is that Lucifer before his fall from Gods Mercy&Grace was able to walk in the garden of Eden.

that's the understanding i get from reading Ezekial 28:14

20 hours ago, 1to3 said:

…13"You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there....