Any one want to discuss the Annihilationism vs. Traditionalism debate?

[inchrist]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

This is a poor hermeneutic process... the entire Word of God is needed to know a subject
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

Defining terms Biblically will encompass the whole of God’s Word not just a portion and ignoring others... the account of Lazarus should be enough for anyone, even the novice, to understand the dynamics of existence past this exist. 

And yet you fail to do just that with the richman and lazarus parable.

[enoob57]

6 hours ago, inchrist said:

And yet you fail to do just that with the richman and lazarus parable.

Break it down for me exegetically within the hermeneutic process... and then answer this: was there conscienctious soulish response on the part of the rich man?

[enoob57]

Well it appears the debate will be over as soon as Shiloh finishes... I am disappointed for these reasons were not examined as they should have been:
1. Defining of death
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This had to be of a spiritual nature for the body went on... this is not platonic but just simple hermeneutic fact...

2. The acccount of Lazarus where the dead continue in all aspects of soulish exist yet in torment awaiting the calling forth of judgment and a second death... of which is also a soulish responsiveness seen in gnashing of teeth and Lord Lord type rhetoric.

 3. The fact that the lake of fire is strictly defined as everlasting torment a second death yet the first death awaited this death and was conscientious soulish torment.

[books]

I was once told to keep in mind that to God, one day is as a thousand years, and Adam died at one hundred thirty years old. Maybe that has a bearing on the subject of his dying when he ate? I'm not certain though, as I haven't researched it.

[inchrist]

12 hours ago, Yowm said:

Interesting take. Why didn't you just bring up your theory of the Lake of Fire in the first place as the story of the Rich man and Lazarus never mentions lake of fire? 

I didnt feel just mentioning the lake of fire would of given you a complete picture, hence i needed the parable of the Richman, and the use of greek words of torture.

 It is speculation on your part though that souls cease to exist in the Lake of Fire.

Hardly speculation, when I cant find a single verse of the wicked receiving immortality, this gift alone is reserved for the righteous

Edited December 5, 2017 by inchrist

[inchrist]

8 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Break it down for me exegetically within the hermeneutic process... and then answer this: was there conscienctious soulish response on the part of the rich man?

Below is my response to Yowm broken down for you

However here are some extra insertion....

The greek word odunao in luke 16:24 is found outside of the parable in only two different verses and both times it has absolutely nothing to do with physical torture, but rather with emotional sorrow or pain.

Luke 2:48 And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing Greek: adunao, same word translated "tormented" in Luke 16:24 & 25. 

Was Christ's parents in physical torture in their flesh while they searched for Jesus?

And 

 Acts 20:38 What grieved them most was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship. (again same greek word odunao )

Were they in physically tortured when Paul departed?

Renderes the following false below false:-

Quote

 

The acccount of Lazarus where the dead continue in all aspects of soulish exist yet in torment awaiting the calling forth of judgment and a second death

Further enlight of the above statement:

Psalm 31:17--"... let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Based on your rendering of the Richman, he is hardly being silent in the grave, which now paints Gods words to be a lie.

The parable of Lazarus and the Richman is about the resurrection.

The following is my response to Yowm:-

The rich man was not raised immortal.

Immortality is only given to the righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:53 

 
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

 Proverbs 12:28 
In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality

............

So the Richman being resurrected was not tortured in burning flames forever and ever as he does not have immortality. The lake of fire does not give life. It is not the tree of life or the book of life.

The torment the richman was experiencing was his judgment to the lake of fire. Seeing the lake of fire tormented him.

The Greek word translated "torments" in verse 23 is basanos.

From Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament:

basanois which is a form of the noun basanos, means, "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it..."

From the Greek-English Keyword Concordance, 

torment, literally a touchstone, used to test metals for alloys, [and] then the examination of persons by torture

The Richman was being tested and proved through chastisement.

Also please notice luke 16:24

for I am tormented in this flame.

Is singular, the flame is not in plural in the greek to be flames. You would expect if he was in the lake of fire to be in flames not flame

Further in luke 16:24 tormented is odunaó in the greek, totally different greek word for the torment youre thinking of.

HELPS Word-studies

3600 odynáō (from 3601 /odýnē, "verypainful sorrow") – properly, to experience intense emotional pain 

 

Seeing what his judgment was going to be was the torment, the flame was the testing and trial of his judgement and emotional anguish of what the out come of his judgment was going to be

After judgment then the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20,The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hadesgave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 That is the point at which annihilation occurs. Because there is no life.....

It is not called the lake of fire and life.

Quote

 Defining of death

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
This had to be of a spiritual nature for the body went on... this is not platonic but just simple hermeneutic fact..

Incorrect, Adam and Eve did surely die, they were forbidden access to the tree of life, the fact that adam and eve no longer walk this earth is pure evidence of the natural meaning of the word "death" because they died.

Now you take a natural meaning word "death" when applied to the second "death" to mean life? And thats hermeneutics to you?

Part of sound hermeneutics is to accept the natural meaning of words....that is a hermeneutic fact.

 

Infact I would equally place this everlasting torture doctrine on par to that of the flat earth doctrine.

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by inchrist

[enoob57]

This is not an exegetical process in hermeneutics ... you need to learn how to do this so that the Scriptures speak for themselves so as not to have forced agenda placed upon it with wrong interpretations resulting...

 

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

Below is my response to Yowm broken down for you

However here are some extra insertion....

The greek word odunao in luke 16:24 is found outside of the parable in only two different verses and both times it has absolutely nothing to do with physical torture, but rather with emotional sorrow or pain. There is pain in many forms whether whatever process is at bay causing it... and proves nothing to the point that physically he was begging for just a slight relief soulishly from the anguish and suffering he was in... your point is made moot in itself!

Luke 2:48 And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing Greek: adunao, same word translated "tormented" in Luke 16:24 & 25. 

Was Christ's parents in physical torture in their flesh while they searched for Jesus?

And 

 Acts 20:38 What grieved them most was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship. (again same greek word odunao )

Were they in physically tortured when Paul departed?

Renderes the following false below false:-

Further enlight of the above statement:

Psalm 31:17--"... let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Based on your rendering of the Richman, he is hardly being silent in the grave, which now paints Gods words to be a lie.

The parable of Lazarus and the Richman is about the resurrection.

The following is my response to Yowm:-

The rich man was not raised immortal.

Immortality is only given to the righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:53 

 
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality

 Proverbs 12:28 
In the way of righteousness there is life; along that path is immortality

............

So the Richman being resurrected was not tortured in burning flames forever and ever as he does not have immortality. The lake of fire does not give life. It is not the tree of life or the book of life.

The torment the richman was experiencing was his judgment to the lake of fire. Seeing the lake of fire tormented him.

The Greek word translated "torments" in verse 23 is basanos.

From Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament:

basanois which is a form of the noun basanos, means, "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it..."

From the Greek-English Keyword Concordance, 

torment, literally a touchstone, used to test metals for alloys, [and] then the examination of persons by torture

The Richman was being tested and proved through chastisement.

Also please notice luke 16:24

for I am tormented in this flame.

Is singular, the flame is not in plural in the greek to be flames. You would expect if he was in the lake of fire to be in flames not flame

Further in luke 16:24 tormented is odunaó in the greek, totally different greek word for the torment youre thinking of.

HELPS Word-studies

3600 odynáō (from 3601 /odýnē, "verypainful sorrow") – properly, to experience intense emotional pain 

here again moot by many kinds of pain yet all are pain...

Seeing what his judgment was going to be was the torment, the flame was the testing and trial of his judgement and emotional anguish of what the out come of his judgment was going to be

After judgment then the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 20,The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hadesgave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 That is the point at which annihilation occurs. Because there is no life.....

It is not called the lake of fire and life.

Incorrect, Adam and Eve did surely die, they were forbidden access to the tree of life, the fact that adam and eve no longer walk this earth is pure evidence of the natural meaning of the word "death" because they died.

Now you take a natural meaning word "death" when applied to the second "death" to mean life? And thats hermeneutics to you?

Part of sound hermeneutics is to accept the natural meaning of words....that is a hermeneutic fact.

 

Infact I would equally place this everlasting torture doctrine on par to that of the flat earth doctrine.

 

You have given no Biblical resource to believe what you claim ... it simply is within the Scriptures eternal punishment
Matthew 25:46 (KJV)
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is so apparent we find it hard to continue in this rediculous debate with you...

[inchrist]

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

This is not an exegetical process in hermeneutics ... you need to learn how to do this so that the Scriptures speak for themselves so as not to have forced agenda placed upon it with wrong interpretations resulting...
 

Excuse me?

The one of the basic rules of hermeneutics is to see how the words are used else where in scripture.

There are many words for torture in the NT greek

tumpanizó - meaning to actual beat to death

properly, to torture. 5178 (tympanízō) originally meant "to beat a drum" and was later used for torturing someone in conjunction with the beating of a drum – hence the expression, "beating to death" (cf. B. F. Westcott at Heb 11:35).

 

Then there is basanizó which has a wider scope

1. properly, to test (metals) by the touchstone.

2. to question by applying torture.

3. to torture (2 Macc. 7:13); hence,

4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment

Which brings us to your fault, the word odynáō

No where in the entirety of scripture is this word EVER used for physical torture.

Hardly a moot point, when you failing to prove the richman is apparently standing in flames being physically tortured. When Christ would of used another word to express such.

Youve paid no attention to the singular word flame and youve paid no attention how the bible has used the word odynáō.

 

4 hours ago, enoob57 said:

You have given no Biblical resource to believe what you claim ... it simply is within the Scriptures eternal punishment
Matthew 25:46 (KJV)
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Yes eternal punishment (consequence is eternal), not eternal punishing....big difference.

 

[inchrist]

7 hours ago, Yowm said:

. You may not call it immortality but at least acknowledge it as eternal torment! 

I cant acknowledge that sorry, as the language is borrowed from Isaiah....

[enoob57]

15 hours ago, inchrist said:

Excuse me?

The one of the basic rules of hermeneutics is to see how the words are used else where in scripture.

There are many words for torture in the NT greek

tumpanizó - meaning to actual beat to death

properly, to torture. 5178 (tympanízō) originally meant "to beat a drum" and was later used for torturing someone in conjunction with the beating of a drum – hence the expression, "beating to death" (cf. B. F. Westcott at Heb 11:35).

 

Then there is basanizó which has a wider scope

1. properly, to test (metals) by the touchstone.

2. to question by applying torture.

3. to torture (2 Macc. 7:13); hence,

4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment

Which brings us to your fault, the word odynáō

No where in the entirety of scripture is this word EVER used for physical torture.

Hardly a moot point, when you failing to prove the richman is apparently standing in flames being physically tortured. When Christ would of used another word to express such.

Youve paid no attention to the singular word flame and youve paid no attention how the bible has used the word odynáō.

 

Yes eternal punishment (consequence is eternal), not eternal punishing....big difference.

 

Immeadiate context your ignoring completely and going way down the line with word usage in other passages
Luke 16:24 (KJV)
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

early rule of hermeneutics ‘when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense’ it is with no doubt in the immediate context that the rich man is in physical torment... your desperate agenda of removing the threat of hell just won’t fly from Scripture...