No one ever went to heaven during OT times.

[Quasar93]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Quasar93.

Impressive! Okay, fair enough.

Over 60 years ago, God selected me to become a teacher. His Ruwach haQodesh placed in me the gift of teaching. I have always loved to learn, and God gave me a very analytical mind. Learning and teaching are just two sides of the same coin.

By the time I was two, my mother noticed when I said, "I'm going to sleep down now." When she questioned my wording, I said, "Wake up; sleep down."

I have always loved school and the preaching on prophecy. More importantly, I've always had a good rapport with my teachers, learning from them even when NOT in class. My dad, being a Baptist preacher, had several Baptist teachers and preachers and missionaries in to speak at various conferences and seminars. I also, therefore, had the advantage of being able to speak to them individually when we took them out to eat after church. I honored them as God's men, but I also learned that they were indeed MEN with foibles, idiosyncrasies, and flawed character traits. Thus, I learned not to REVERE them while I respected them.

I listened to my dad when he was going through the struggle of whether to be called a "Reverend" locally, and his conclusion was that NO ONE should be called a "Reverend"; God ALONE was to be revered! (He tolerated it from those who didn't know any better, but that was NOT his preference.) He called himself simply a "Pastor."

While in Junior High (Middle School today), I wrote my autobiography. I concluded that I loved science and math and teaching but I felt God was calling me to a mission field. My wise teacher simply asked, "Why can't you do BOTH?" Assisted by God's Ruwach, I realized I COULD do both! More importantly, I knew God was CALLING me to do both!

Throughout public schooling, I was known as a "nerd" and a "preacher's boy." I never went to parties unless they were church-sponsored events, had few friends outside of my church circles, and always dated "Christian" girls. Being a chess club member and a science club member, I was valedictorian in high school with a 3.82 grade point average (out of 4.00). For my valedictorian speech, I organized 150 memory verses of Scripture and quoted them aloud in a logical order for my audience. None of the speech was in my own words, only the order and the emphasis and stress I placed upon the words of the Bible were my own work.

I received a B.S. in Pastoral Studies at Baptist Bible College (Springfield, MO), an A.S. degree in Data Processing at Seminole Community College, an A.A. degree in Engineering at the same school, and a B.S.Cp.E. in Computer Engineering at the University of Central Florida. I have sat under the teachings and sermons of people such as Dr. G. Beauchamp Vick, Dr. Bill Bartlett, Dr. Parker Dailey, Dr. W. E. Dowell, Sr., Dr. W. E. Dowell, Jr., Rev. Fred Needy, Dr. Bud Everett, Dr. Kenneth Gillming, Dr. G. E. Hodges, Dr. C. Kenneth Howard, Dr. Paul Lambert, Dr. J. H. Melton, Dr. Herbert J. Pugmire, Dr. John Pursselley, Mr. David Rathbun, Dr. John W. Rawlings, Dr. James T. Sewell, Dr. Hunter Sherman, Dr. Robert J. Terrey, Dr. Ronald L. Walker, Dr. Larry A. Wofford, Dr. Thomas Bulick, and Dr. R. O. Woodworth, to name a few. Lately, I've added to them Rabbi S. Weiner, and my Hebrew teacher Mr. Michael Michael, who is a "Sabra," being born and raised in Haifa, and Rabbi in spirit if not in title.

I also had the left-handed teaching from the school of hard knocks. In my second year at BBC, one of my personal heroes in the faith left his ministry and ran off with the church secretary. For whatever reason at the time, this shook me to the core, and it was from that time on that I learned to treat EVERYTHING I heard and was instructed to believe, as a "Berean."

Acts 17:10-11 (KJV)

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I tossed out everything I believed, except that there is a God, that God wrote the Bible through His prophets, and sent His Son "Jesus" to "save His people from their sins," for I had already met Him by that time, and I began the long, arduous task of rebuilding my belief-system. ALL theology was suspect and open to scrutiny. If it could pass the Scripture test, then I could embrace it and adapt it into that belief-system. If it could not, then it was tabled to a later date. If a belief could not pass the Scripture test, even after some time of re-thinking and evaluation, then it would be discarded, like President Donald Trump discards "fake news."

Furthermore, I learned early on that this piecing together the facts of Scripture could NOT be done in English. English could be the starting point of learning what MIGHT fit together, but one could only know for sure through the original languages. So, I also began an in-depth study of the original languages as the origins of the Scriptures.

I also discovered that an understanding of a word should NOT be found in the UNION of its definitions (some words have as many as 30 or more individual definitions!), but rather in the INTERSECTION of its various definitions, and that this intersection could often be found in the etymology of the word. What is the BASELINE definition of the word that could be used in all the various definitions listed?

Throughout this difficult rebuilding of what I believe, the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) has been consulted and has been my Teacher. I do not glibly say "I learned this from the Holy Spirit," but He has made everything added to fit PRECISELY into place in ways that are amazing and complex! So awesome are the ways some things fit together, that I can only conclude that it is God's very truth. If others already have learned this truth, all the better. If others have not learned this truth, either God will teach them eventually OR it will remain hidden from their sight for God-only-knows-what reason. However, because of the other facts that have come before and the way the new piece of information fits, I know that the new piece is correct.

For instance, ...

when one realizes (1) that the word "glory" can refer to "brightness," (2) that the throne of God in a pyramid would be at the pinnacle - the CORNERSTONE - the CAPSTONE - the "Head (Stone) of the Corner," and (3) that the New Jerusalem, God's "House" as a Bedouin "Tent" ("Tabernacle"), is shaped like a pyramid, it explains so many passages in the prophecies, such as the term "mountain of the LORD'S house," and Isaiah 24:23:

Isaiah 24:23 (KJV)

23 Then the moon shall be confounded (confused; mixed up), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

"Glory" is not a place; it's a CONDITION! Therefore, when the Lord Yeshua` returns "in glory," He returns "in brightness!" Not some faint glow, as is portrayed in many movies, but in FULL BRIGHTNESS, so bright that one cannot look at Him directly! He OUTDOES the sun! He confuses the phases of the moon! This also explains how we can be changed "from glory to glory":

2 Corinthians 3:12-18 (KJV)

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ (in the Messiah). 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

That's a relatively insignificant example, but it's one of the clearer examples. Everything just FITS into place!

Anyway, those are my credentials.

 

And  a high five for you, bro!  I couldn have written a better epistle myself, even though it would be longer.  With all due respect, many kudos for your honorable achievements in pursuit of teaching others /bringing others to the Lord.  God bless you.

 

Quasar93

[ytLiJC]

On 1/8/2018 at 6:37 AM, Quasar93 said:

Except Enoch and Elijah. 

1. Jesus made the following remark before he was crucified in: Jn.3:13 NIV:  "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."  With the two exceptions of Enoch and Elijah who weere both translated to heaven, according to Gen.5:21-24 and 2 Kgs.2:11.

2. As He said in: Jn.6:46 NIV:  "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only He has seen the Father."

3. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk.16:22-26 NIV, is a perfect profile of OT Sheol that reveals both the righteous and the wicked going there in spirit after their physical death.  "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.  The rich man also died and was buried.  In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus [the beggar] by his side.  So he called to him, 'father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.'"  

"But Abrahan replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is conforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"   

4. The reason for 3. above is because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins as recorded in Heb.10:4 NIV.

5. Number 4. above reinforced by Paul in Rom.3:25-26 NIV.  "God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.  He did this to denonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance, He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.  He did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

6. Jesus introduced the New Covenant of Grace as recorded in Lk.22:20 NIV, opening the door to salvation for all, both Jews and Gentiles.  "...This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, whichn is poured out for you."

7. After Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, as recorded in Lk.23:46 NIV, the disposition of where everyone goes who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior since Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 NIV, is found in 2 Cor.5:6-8 NIV, "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and in Phil.1:21-23 NIV, confirming Ecc.12:7 NIV.

8. So what happened to the OT righteous after Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross? Jesus went in Spirit to the prison [Sheol] and preached the Gospel to the all the OT righteous as well as the wicked during Noah's time, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. As recorded in Isa.55:11 the word from the mouth of the Lord does not come back empty, but will accomplish His desire and achieve His purpose.  Which I believe was the case here, giving an opportunity for all the OT righteous to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.


9. Jesus said in Jn.3:13: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

10. So when Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9, He took all the OT righteous to heaven with Him, who were in Sheol and received Him, when He was there, in 1 Pet.3:18-20, according to Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18.

11. As documented in Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:14-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8, when Jesus returns to rapture His Church, all the saints who previously died in Him, both OT and NT, return with Him from heaven when He returns to the earth in His second coming, at that time, according to Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.  

12. IMO: All the saints will be with Jesus during His Millennial reign here on the earth.


Quasar93

 

not-a-few people had been taken to Paradise before the establishment/enactment of the New Covenant

Luke 16:19-31 (AKJV) "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. Then he said, I pray you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

"Lazarus" is a byword for poor man - according to the biblical terminology, "poor" man may be a person who is miserable, stupid/uneducated, harmless, lacking malice/evilness/unrighteousness, etc.

Blessings

Edited February 10, 2018 by ytLiJC

[Quasar93]

6 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

 

not-a-few people had been taken to Paradise before the establishment/enactment of the New Covenant

Luke 16:19-31 (AKJV) "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. Then he said, I pray you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

"Lazarus" is a byword for poor man - according to the biblical terminology, "poor" man may be a person who is miserable, stupid/uneducated, harmless, lacking malice/evilness/unrighteousness, etc.

Blessings

 

No one went to heaven during OT times, as I previously posted, except Enoch and Elijah.  The parable of Jesus, in Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man is a perfect profile of OT Sheol/Hades/Hell, during OT times.  It is divided by a huge chasm between the wicked and the righteous.    Where all the spirit/soul's went, who died during OT times.  Because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, according to Heb.10:4.  That is why Jesus said what He did, that no one has been to heaven except He who has come from there, nor seen the Father, except Him, until after He shed is blood and died on a cross for us all..

The term Paradise used by Jesus, in Lk.23:43, when He told the thief on the cross next to Him, "you will be in Paradise with me this day," was His meaning for heaven, not Sheol.  The same place all of us who belong to Jesus will go, when our natural physical body dies, recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirmed in 1 Thess.4:14.

 

Quasar93 

[ytLiJC]

16 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

No one went to heaven during OT times, as I previously posted, except Enoch and Elijah.  The parable of Jesus, in Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man is a perfect profile of OT Sheol/Hades/Hell, during OT times.  It is divided by a huge chasm between the wicked and the righteous.    Where all the spirit/soul's went, who died during OT times.  Because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, according to Heb.10:4.  That is why Jesus said what He did, that no one has been to heaven except He who has come from there, nor seen the Father, except Him, until after He shed is blood and died on a cross for us all..

The term Paradise used by Jesus, in Lk.23:43, when He told the thief on the cross next to Him, "you will be in Paradise with me this day," was His meaning for heaven, not Sheol.  The same place all of us who belong to Jesus will go, when our natural physical body dies, recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirmed in 1 Thess.4:14.

 

Quasar93 

 

are you trying to say that Abraham and Lazarus were not in Paradise but in hell?! - how was it possible that the man called "Father of all righteous religious worshipers/believers and righteous people in general" had been not in Paradise but in hell for all that time from the end of his lifetime to the moment of establishment/enactment of the New Covenant?!

you say only Enoch and Elijah were in Heaven, but don't you remember that Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and talked to Him (Luke 9:28-36)?!

Blessings

Edited February 11, 2018 by ytLiJC

[Quasar93]

6 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

 

are you trying to say that Abraham and Lazarus were not in Paradise but in hell?! - how was it possible that the man called "Father of all righteous religious worshipers/believers and righteous people in general" had been not in Paradise but in hell for all that time from the end of his lifetime to the moment of establishment/enactment of the New Covenant?!

you say only Enoch and Elijah were in Heaven, but don't you remember that Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus and talked to Him (Luke 9:28-36)?!

Blessings

 

 

Jesus parable in Lk.16:19-31 is a perfect profile of OT Sheol/Hades/Hell.  There are two locations in it, separated by a wide chasm, making it impossible for the wicked, the rich man, section to crossover to the righteous, where Abraham and Lazarus are.  The section for the righteous, is not called Paradise anywhere in the Bible.

Jesus related to the thief on the cross, in Lk.23:43, of being in Paradise with Him that very day.  Where Paradise is seen as heaven

No on went to heaven during OT times, except Enoch and Elijah, because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, as recorded in Heb.10:4.  Not until Jesus provided atonement for sins, by shedding His blood and dying on a  cross.

 

 

Quasasr93

[ytLiJC]

10 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

 

Jesus parable in Lk.16:19-31 is a perfect profile of OT Sheol/Hades/Hell.  There are two locations in it, separated by a wide chasm, making it impossible for the wicked, the rich man, section to crossover to the righteous, where Abraham and Lazarus are.  The section for the righteous, is not called Paradise anywhere in the Bible.

Jesus related to the thief on the cross, in Lk.23:43, of being in Paradise with Him that very day.  Where Paradise is seen as heaven

No on went to heaven during OT times, except Enoch and Elijah, because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, as recorded in Heb.10:4.  Not until Jesus provided atonement for sins, by shedding His blood and dying on a  cross.

 

 

Quasasr93

 

"sheol" is the "pit" of loss of life, and "life" is the positive form of existence/presence (correspondingly "death" is the negative form of existence/presence), while Luke 16:19-31 speaks of Abraham and Lazarus being in positive from of existence (rather the unrighteous pharisee is seen to be in "sheol") - simply there is no life in sheol, but sheol is death

Blessings

[Quasar93]

41 minutes ago, ytLiJC said:

 

"sheol" is the "pit" of loss of life, and "life" is the positive form of existence/presence (correspondingly "death" is the negative form of existence/presence), while Luke 16:19-31 speaks of Abraham and Lazarus being in positive from of existence (rather the unrighteous pharisee is seen to be in "sheol") - simply there is no life in sheol, but sheol is death

Blessings

 

 

Sheolhas more than one meaning; it is used by the Hebrew, to describe the grave, as you have shown in the above.  Jesus has shown in His parable in Lk.16:19-31, the spirit/soul also goes to Sheol, after the death of the natural body/  See also, 1 Pet.3:18-20.

 

Quasar93

[ytLiJC]

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

 

Sheolhas more than one meaning; it is used by the Hebrew, to describe the grave, as you have shown in the above.  Jesus has shown in His parable in Lk.16:19-31, the spirit/soul also goes to Sheol, after the death of the natural body/  See also, 1 Pet.3:18-20.

 

Quasar93

 

even the explanation for this word(h7585) in strong's concordance shows that sheol is nothing positive in and of itself:

 

    sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

        the underworld

        Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead

            place of no return

            without praise of God

            wicked sent there for punishment

            righteous not abandoned to it

            of the place of exile (fig)

            of extreme degradation in sin

 

the first heaven is the "heaven" of this world where we are physically now - all good (not evil) of this world comes from there - the second and the third heaven are the heavens of afterlife (since the day of the Fall righteous people who died have always been taken at least to the second heaven, however, the bodies of some of them had been held in graves by the satanic kingdom before the Lord's death on calvary (Matthew 27:50-53)), while sheol is the "pit" of loss of life, something that has nothing to do with "heavens"

Blessings

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

 

even the explanation for this word(h7585) in strong's concordance shows that sheol is nothing positive in and of itself:

 

    sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

        the underworld

        Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead

            place of no return

            without praise of God

            wicked sent there for punishment

            righteous not abandoned to it

            of the place of exile (fig)

            of extreme degradation in sin

 

the first heaven is the "heaven" of this world where we are physically now - all good (not evil) of this world comes from there - the second and the third heaven are the heavens of afterlife (since the day of the Fall righteous people who died have always been taken at least to the second heaven, however, the bodies of some of them had been held in graves by the satanic kingdom before the Lord's death on calvary (Matthew 27:50-53)), while sheol is the "pit" of loss of life, something that has nothing to do with "heavens"

Blessings

Thank you for confusing me. 

[ytLiJC]

15 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you for confusing me. 

 

if you felt confused not for the better, what is the thing you found in my posts that confuses you?!

i could speak uncertain and unproven things, but preferred not to do it

Blessings