4LdKHVCzRDj2 Posted March 8, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,453 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 1,453 Days Won: 6 Joined: 11/02/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1991 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said: You Christ now? “I am not the Christ.” - John 1:20 4 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said: Are you being persecuted? I wish so. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:10 Glory to God! Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne222 Posted March 8, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 32 Topic Count: 476 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 6,559 Content Per Day: 2.28 Reputation: 7,638 Days Won: 9 Joined: 06/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2018 21 minutes ago, Butero said: What is going on in this thread is a Baptist holy war over the false OSAS doctrine. Nobody here is preaching saved by works, but some of us reject the notion true Christians continue in a lifestyle of sin. I must have overlooked the taking of an oath thing. We aren't to do that, but overall, the OP was good. I don't know what Bible was quoted, but the message was sound overall. It's false to you but you are wrong lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Just now, Wayne222 said: It's false to you but you are wrong lol. It is a perversion of Calvinism. The early Baptists followed Calvin. You still have some of them called Primitive Baptists. Then you had a group that didn't like the idea that you didn't actually play a part in your salvation, but you were predestined saved or lost, so they came up with a hybrid doctrine where you are saved through a prayer and eternally secure. It is completely bogus. Many Baptists that believe this doctrine are saved and are born again. You can see the obvious change in their lifestyle, but many are deluded into thinking they are saved, and they were never born again. You can see it because they continue to live according to the works of the flesh. That is what I took from the OP. He was warning that it is possible to think you are saved when you are not. It is a matter of looking at yourself in the mirror of God's Word to make your calling and election sure. It is not a works based doctrine at all. It is saying that true salvation brings about a changed life. That is it. Nobody that I have run across so far is preaching saved by works. Some of the most prideful, hateful, and judgmental people I have ever encountered in the church are eternal security Baptists. Anyone that is not of that belief is fallen from grace and not saved. They are the first to attack other denominations and ministers. They are superior to everyone. Then they accuse people of being prideful because they reject OSAS, when they are full of pride and can't see it. They accuse others of being cult like, but they need to look in the mirror. If you don't believe just like them, you aren't saved, according to many in their group. There was nothing in this thread worth the attacks it got. Did I agree with everything in the OP? No, but it wasn't worth all of this. It is a Baptist verses anyone that dares to oppose Baptist holy war. This poor guy got in the middle of it, and didn't know what hit him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said: “I am not the Christ.” - John 1:20 I wish so. "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:10 Glory to God! Amen. "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Matthew 5:11,12 You have clearly been persecuted in this thread. People are coming together to try to intimidate and bully you. I won't be a party to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Butero, you are so wrong to say that people are ganging up on the OP. He is not correct (neither are you) and this is not a Baptist thing. I am not a Baptist yet I believe the Bible when It tells us that the Holy Spirit guarantees our Salvation the moment we Believe and accept Christ. You used to know the Truth, but you talked yourself out of It. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rick_Parker said: Butero, you are so wrong to say that people are ganging up on the OP. He is not correct (neither are you) and this is not a Baptist thing. I am not a Baptist yet I believe the Bible when It tells us that the Holy Spirit guarantees our Salvation the moment we Believe and accept Christ. You used to know the Truth, but you talked yourself out of It. It is really more of an unconditional security lie than strictly a Baptist lie. I have never believed in OSAS. I have never been a member of a church that believed in OSAS. I have been Methodist, Pentecostal Holiness, Church of God, Assemblies of God and Independent, and none taught that. Most were associated with Wesley who doesn't teach that. I have no problem with people disagreeing in a discussion group, but some of the attacks were unfounded. People were putting words into the guy's mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, Davida said: That is simply not true. Really unfair to those Christians in the world that are Actually persecuted to call a challenge and debate persecution. It is right and fair to challenge to what does not have a biblical basis. It's been claimed or implied that saved Christians don't sin and those that do sin are not saved is incorrect & unbiblical. Christians still struggle & no born again Christian purposely sins , but Christians are not immediately perfect saints because they are saved. Paul himself expressed the struggle that goes on between the carnal man and the Holy Spirit. Christians don't immediately become perfect images of Christ. Sanctification is a process. https://www.gotquestions.org/sanctification.html What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? Question: "What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification?" Answer: Sanctification is God’s will for us (1 Thessalonians 4:3). The word sanctification is related to the word saint; both words have to do with holiness. To “sanctify” something is to set it apart for special use; to “sanctify” a person is to make him holy. Jesus had a lot to say about sanctification in John 17. In verse 16 the Lord says, “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it,” and this is before His request: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” (verse 17). In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: “You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30, ESV). The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10). Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as “positional” sanctification; it is the same as justification. While we are positionally holy (“set free from every sin” by the blood of Christ, Acts 13:39), we know that we still sin (1 John 1:10). That’s why the Bible also refers to sanctification as a practical experience of our separation unto God. “Progressive” or “experiential” sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life. It is the same as growing in the Lord (2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity. God started the work of making us like Christ, and He is continuing it (Philippians 1:6). This type of sanctification is to be pursued by the believer earnestly (1 Peter 1:15; Hebrews 12:14) and is effected by the application of the Word (John 17:17). Progressive sanctification has in view the setting apart of believers for the purpose for which they are sent into the world: “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified” (John 17:18–19). That Jesus set Himself apart for God’s purpose is both the basis and the condition of our being set apart (see John 10:36). We are sanctified and sent because Jesus was. Our Lord’s sanctification is the pattern of and power for our own. The sending and the sanctifying are inseparable. On this account we are called “saints” (hagioi in the Greek), or “sanctified ones.” Prior to salvation, our behavior bore witness to our standing in the world in separation from God, but now our behavior should bear witness to our standing before God in separation from the world. Little by little, every day, “those who are being sanctified” (Hebrews 10:14, ESV) are becoming more like Christ. There is a third sense in which the word sanctification is used in Scripture—a “complete” or “ultimate” sanctification. This is the same as glorification. Paul prays in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (ESV). Paul speaks of Christ as “the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27) and links the glorious appearing of Christ to our personal glorification: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, a total sanctification in every regard. “We know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2). To summarize, “sanctification” is a translation of the Greek word hagiasmos, meaning “holiness” or “a separation.” In the past, God granted us justification, a once-for-all, positional holiness in Christ. Now, God guides us to maturity, a practical, progressive holiness. In the future, God will give us glorification, a permanent, ultimate holiness. These three phases of sanctification separate the believer from the penalty of sin (justification), the power of sin (maturity), and the presence of sin (glorification). Recommended Resource: Pleasing God: Discovering the Meaning and Importance of Sanctification by R.C. Sproul Of course people suffer worse persecutions than to be attacked verbally, but that doesn't mean this isn't a form of persecution that was taking place. I can actually see some right and wrong from both sides in this thread. Clearly, Christians can cross the line and violate God's standard of holiness and be guilty of sin. At the same time, 1 John 3:6-7 says, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." Doesn't that kind of imply that true Christians don't sin? Yes, we do all go through battles with the flesh and Spirit, but true Christians don't go around ignoring God's Word and living like the world. I was just in another thread where someone said Christians can choose to sin or not to sin. What kind of garbage is that? That is unbiblical. Yes, I know about the chastening of the Lord, but we aren't told we are free to sin or not to sin. Anyway, everyone in this thread didn't attack him, but some did, in my opinion. Thanks for the link. If I get time I will check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne222 Posted March 9, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 32 Topic Count: 476 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 6,559 Content Per Day: 2.28 Reputation: 7,638 Days Won: 9 Joined: 06/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Butero said: It is a perversion of Calvinism. The early Baptists followed Calvin. You still have some of them called Primitive Baptists. Then you had a group that didn't like the idea that you didn't actually play a part in your salvation, but you were predestined saved or lost, so they came up with a hybrid doctrine where you are saved through a prayer and eternally secure. It is completely bogus. Many Baptists that believe this doctrine are saved and are born again. You can see the obvious change in their lifestyle, but many are deluded into thinking they are saved, and they were never born again. You can see it because they continue to live according to the works of the flesh. That is what I took from the OP. He was warning that it is possible to think you are saved when you are not. It is a matter of looking at yourself in the mirror of God's Word to make your calling and election sure. It is not a works based doctrine at all. It is saying that true salvation brings about a changed life. That is it. Nobody that I have run across so far is preaching saved by works. Some of the most prideful, hateful, and judgmental people I have ever encountered in the church are eternal security Baptists. Anyone that is not of that belief is fallen from grace and not saved. They are the first to attack other denominations and ministers. They are superior to everyone. Then they accuse people of being prideful because they reject OSAS, when they are full of pride and can't see it. They accuse others of being cult like, but they need to look in the mirror. If you don't believe just like them, you aren't saved, according to many in their group. There was nothing in this thread worth the attacks it got. Did I agree with everything in the OP? No, but it wasn't worth all of this. It is a Baptist verses anyone that dares to oppose Baptist holy war. This poor guy got in the middle of it, and didn't know what hit him. He is a grown man who often disagrees and tells others that they need to surrender to Jesus as if they needed to be saved. He implies they are lost. You sound very bias. Most evangelicals believe you cannot lose salvation if born again. I believe you can hold to that salvation can be lost teaching and be a real Christian. But if you teach you have to add works to be saved then no that is a false gospel. Our works clearly is a part of our sanctification. Every born again person has been sanctify. But that does not earn salvation. It's happens after you already are saved. Now if your not sanctified then your not born again. But a true Christian can fall into sin look at the Corinthian church. They fell into bad sin. But they were real Christians. They did repent and turn back to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 28 minutes ago, Yowm said: That was me, but obviously you quoted me out of context as I went on to say, 'but he will become a slave to whichever he yields himself to and quoting... Romans 6:16 NASB [16] Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? ...but no, you misrepresent me as you do most of the Scriptures. If that Christian becomes a slave to sin, are they still a Christian? If they are in your opinion, I did not misrepresent you. If you are saying when they are a slave to sin, they are lost, then I did misrepresent you. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 42 minutes ago, Yowm said: Perfectionism. Do you know anyone who never sins? If you walk in the Spirit, the Bible says you will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh. I have heard people claim they never sin. My last Pastor said he hadn't sinned since he was saved back in the 50s when he was sanctified. He held to the doctrine of Charles Wesley that sanctification is a second definite work of grace. He did say he made mistakes. What I took that to mean is he didn't commit willful sins. Who is to say if that is true or not? I never saw him sin, and didn't follow him around all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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