mrs Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,081 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 I've just started looking into this topic and was wondering what everyone's take on it was.I don't want to start a debate or anything,but if anyone wants to give me their view and back it up with Scripture it would be much appreciated. Thankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Johannes Posted May 12, 2005 Share Posted May 12, 2005 (edited) John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Yes, from my perspective it is Biblical. Christ did not die for all men. When the Bible says "all," it is simply referring to Jew and Gentile, or often those Predestined -- not literally all individuals. Otherwise, one would have to say Christ failed, because not everyone will be saved. We both know Christ succeded! Christ's atonement is sufficient for all, but intended for a few. This goes hand-in-hand with Unconditional Election -- the two cannot be separated. Take a look: John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ALL given by the Father will come. This verse shows that God intends a select few to come. Not all in the broad sense, but all who are predestined to believe. (It also reinforces Irresistible Grace.) According to John 6:37, if the Arminian view were the truth then everyone would be saved. Arminians believe Christ died for all men. The Bible shows that atonement and predestination go hand-in-hand. That is why I make little distinction between Arminianism and Universalism; because either way, it espouses universal salvation. John 6:38-39 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. Once again we see that Christ was sent to save a particular group of people: the elect, the Church of Christ. My question to the Arminian is, does not Christ have the authority to choose His own Bride? Is is not blasphemous to suggest this is somehow unjust? Just to make things interesting, I would like to include Romans 9:16-22: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: But back to the point of this topic. As we can see, Christ came to atone those given to Him by the Father; namely, those whose names are written in the Book of Life. John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. Christ died for HIS flock, which is NOT the entire world. Christ died for you, me, us, and whosoever else shall believe to come; and all who will believe were ordained to believed at the beginning of the world. Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Knowing that my salvation was truly ordained -- not just a luck of the draw, such as being born in the right place at the right time -- gives me a greater sense of awe regarding our Lord. He saved us before we were even born. I tell you, ever since being convicted of the Reformed Gospel, that which was preached by the Apostle Paul, I have trusted in God more than at any other time in my life. This Mighty God of ours is in TOTAL control! God Bless, Johannes Edited May 12, 2005 by Johannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJer Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 The Atonement IS limited.... I believe the limitation is "whosoever". (John 3:16) This discussion will run down the same path as always, with each side using their own set of verses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrs Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,081 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 12, 2005 Yes, from my perspective it is Biblical. Christ did not die for all men. When the Bible says "all," it is simply referring to Jew and Gentile, or often those Predestined -- not literally all individuals. Otherwise, one would have to say Christ failed, because not everyone will be saved. This is a dumb question,but why does it say all if it doesn't mean all? According to John 6:37, if the Arminian view were the truth then everyone would be saved. Arminians believe Christ died for all men. The Bible shows that atonement and predestination go hand-in-hand. That is why I make little distinction between Arminianism and Universalism; because either way, it espouses universal salvation. Don't Arminians teach that the cross was only part of the plan? Meaning, the cross doesn't save until a person believes in Christ's payment and accepts it by faith?So therefore Christ could die for all and not fail, because he accomplished his part of it and the rest is up to the sinner. Once again we see that Christ was sent to save a particular group of people: the elect, the Church of Christ. My question to the Arminian is, does not Christ have the authority to choose His own Bride? Is is not blasphemous to suggest this is somehow unjust? I think people call it unjust because the first and foremost view they have of God is that He is love. Knowing that my salvation was truly ordained -- not just a luck of the draw, such as being born in the right place at the right time -- gives me a greater sense of awe regarding our Lord. He saved us before we were even born. I tell you, ever since being convicted of the Reformed Gospel, that which was preached by the Apostle Paul, I have trusted in God more than at any other time in my life. This Mighty God of ours is in TOTAL control! Yes He is. Since believing that Calvinism is more Biblical, my view of God has drastically changed. Now He is so much more amazing, awesome and glorious. If you don't mind sharing, how did you come to believe Calvinism? Did you always believe it, or were you raised Arminian? Thankyou so much for your post <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 If by limited atonement you mean that it is effective only for the elect, yes I believe that concept is biblical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthnluv Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 (edited) I've just started looking into this topic and was wondering what everyone's take on it was.I don't want to start a debate or anything,but if anyone wants to give me their view and back it up with Scripture it would be much appreciated. Thankyou. Edited May 12, 2005 by truthnluv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 (edited) So even though the invitation is universal, the benefits of the atonement are limited only to those who respond. That sounds limited to me. If it was unlimited, all would be saved regardloess of reponse. I would say the invitation is universal, the atonement is limited. Also the idea that men do not kick over dead the minute they commit their first sin was true long before the atonement took place. Adam and Eve did not kick over dead the instant they sinned either. But all people are separated from God (spiritually dead) the minute they are born. It also seems that you are saying that Christ died for all sins. So when a person rejects and is sent to eternal punishment, they are not being sent there because of their sins, but because of unbelief. If that is the case, you will have difficulty explaining how a person who has never heard the gospel can be condemned. They have not refused to believe, they just have not heard. So what unbelief are they being judged for? Your position sounds like you are saying that all people are forgiven until they decide not to believe. The implication being that until the person decides not to believe, they are redeemed. Edited May 12, 2005 by pastoreric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgolvach Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 110 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,254 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 Limited to those who recieve it. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthnluv Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 93 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 (edited) So even though the invitation is universal, the benefits of the atonement are limited only to those who respond. That sounds limited to me. If it was unlimited, all would be saved regardloess of reponse. I would say the invitation is universal, the atonement is limited. Also the idea that men do not kick over dead the minute they commit their first sin was true long before the atonement took place. Adam and Eve did not kick over dead the instant they sinned either. But all people are separated from God (spiritually dead) the minute they are born. No, everyone's sin is atoned(paid for). There is a big difference between having your sins atoned for and being born again. The problem is that nobody believes. God has to give you a new spirit capable of faith in order for you to respond in faith(believe) and be saved. He does this for His elect only. Although one's sins are paid for one must still believe because God has added that stipulation in order for the payment to take effect. Salvation is by grace through faith alone. Without faith there is no possibility of salvation. And sins of the past before the Cross were still forgiven based on the Cross in forebearance(Rom.3:25) It also seems that you are saying that Christ died for all sins. So when a person rejects and is sent to eternal punishment, they are not being sent there because of their sins, but because of unbelief. Yes. Remember that at the White Throne Judgement sinners will be judged according to their works. However, everyone at the White Throne Judgement is going to hell because they are all unbelievers. There will be degrees of punishment based on what they knew and what they did with that knowledge. For example, Hell will be much hotter for the Pharisees of Jesus' day. Remember, THE punishment for sin is death and hell(Rom.6:23). That's what was taken care of on the Cross. However, God can, does, and will still punish sin. He just doesn't have to kill you and send you to hell for it because of Christ payment. When God chastises you with sickness for your sinful behavior that is NOT the punishment for sin. The punishment for sin is eternal death. God will send people to hell simply because of their unbelief, but He still hates sin. And he will still punish it based on the light that that person had and how they treated His children. If that is the case, you will have difficulty explaining how a person who has never heard the gospel can be condemned. They have not refused to believe, they just have not heard. So what unbelief are they being judged for? Men are born in sin and shaped in iniquity. There is none that seek God. There is none righteous. All have gone astray from the womb and are wicked from their youth. The carnal mind that men are born with is at enmity with God; It is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be. The only way to believe is to be born again and given a new nature capable of faith. Once God gives you a new nature you will come to him in faith. Not before that. And only the elect will be given a new nature capable of believing God. If one is elect he will hear the gospel. Then he will be regenerated and he will believe. All those who have been given to Christ of the Father will come to Him. He will lose nothing. Your position sounds like you are saying that all people are forgiven until they decide not to believe. The implication being that until the person decides not to believe, they are redeemed. No, I never said they were forgiven until they decide not to believe: Nobody decides not to believe because they are born not believing. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be(Rom.8:7-8). This is the case from the moment the sperm meets the egg in the uterus. Hence, as soon a child develops the physical ability to manifest sinful behavior that's exactly what they do. So, nobody's forgiven for unbelief until they come to Christ. That is the stipulation that God added after the Cross "... He who does not believe is condemned already." John 3:18 Everyone is redeemed. To redeem just means to buy, buy back, aquire by payment, etc. Christ paid for every sin and, therefore, made all men savable. They were supposed to all suffer eternal death, but He suffered it for them as their substitution. Now they are all His(eastern philosophy); They are redeemed. He can now do what he wants with them and still be just. Without the Cross He would have to send us all to hell according to His own word, but now He doesn't have to. God is now free to withhold judgement on everyone by giving them a new nature capable of belief if He wants to. But God chooses not to do this. He regenerates who he chooses and he leaves others to their own devices. God said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and who I will hardeneth I hardeneth." Truthnluv Edited May 12, 2005 by truthnluv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted May 12, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2005 I'll respond more fully later, but do you mind if I ask at which Bible College you learned this hermeneutic? What kind of church do you attend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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