Woman of Revelation 12

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

There is a 5th alternative: The church (the REAL church), remains on earth until the rapture at the 6th seal, but the Holy Spirit did not need to reference the church in the seals or later, not until chapter 22 when John wraps up the book.  John mentions the prayers of the saints in 5:8 so that is mostly likely the prayers of the saints who make up the church.  The prayers of the saints are again mentioned in chapter 8 before any of the trumpet judgments. l  suspect these are prayers that the church prayed before the rapture - but it also could be the prayers of those left behind.

Saints are mentioned again in chapter 11, but in a prophecy and concerning the rewards given to the saints.  In chapter 13 the saints are mentioned and it is clear there these are new saints after the rapture.  Saints are mentioned again in chapter 14  - that they have patience to survive the days of GT or patience to become a martyr.

There you go with your parenthesis. Do You really think someone can become a saint overnight? From what I can tell it is a life long process. The concept of tribulation saints is an impossibility to me, and anyone who has walked with the Lord for a Long time. That is where the Left Behind movies influenced your thinking, as well as your preconceived framework. Remember I do not disagree with you on the sixth seal rapture. That is clearly one of seven passages that discuss the rapture. Again this comes from years of study of the Word of God, Scripture interpreting scripture, and many hours of prayer, and being taught. I am here to present those findings whether you agree or disagree is not important. 

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

There may be some Roman Catholics that are born again, but very few. I just want to correct this so it is not a generalization, because I know some that are. 

When the Holy Spirit raced through the Catholic churches in the '60's, some were filled with the Holy Spirit. It goes without saying, He is only going to fill TRUE Christians! I agree with you here.

I have puzzled over this many times. I have talked with born again Catholics again and again. It seems, their biggest problem is, they don't know they are lost and NEED to be "born again."

Edited July 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, dhchristian said:

There you go with your parenthesis. Do You really think someone can become a saint overnight? From what I can tell it is a life long process. The concept of tribulation saints is an impossibility to me, and anyone who has walked with the Lord for a Long time. That is where the Left Behind movies influenced your thinking, as well as your preconceived framework. Remember I do not disagree with you on the sixth seal rapture. That is clearly one of seven passages that discuss the rapture. Again this comes from years of study of the Word of God, Scripture interpreting scripture, and many hours of prayer, and being taught. I am here to present those findings whether you agree or disagree is not important. 

God uses the word "saint" differently that you are using it. In Revelation, a "saint" is just a human being that is born again and following Jesus.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Outside the "greasy grace" being taught in some places, the real gospel is being taught in many places.  I attended (and taught) in an underground church in China for 6 months. Just as real faith died down to only embers in Europe, it is happening here in the US. We need a new "awakening!" it has been promised through countless prophecies - and is sure to come soon.  When the fire of revival is still hot, Jesus will come. That is what has been prophesied.

Praise God if we get a revival. I see a quiet revival happening, from person to person.

[simplejeff]

7 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Do You really think someone can become a saint overnight? From what I can tell it is a life long process.

As soon as they are born again by the Will of the Father in heaven!   NOT by man's will, nor of the flesh, nor by blood,   but as written in SCRIPTURE (TRUTH). 

That lifelong process idea usually , maybe not always depending on origin and meaning,  but usually comes from the apostate believers/ apostate church/ false church/ counterfeit church i.e. bad teaching.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

God uses the word "saint" differently that you are using it. In Revelation, a "saint" is just a human being that is born again and following Jesus.

Same word is used. There are the faithful in Christ Jesus, who are all those born again, and there are the saints that are chosen out of them  I Know this is hard to comprehend especially if you have been in a church where every member is a saint. Only A select few are.

[dhchristian]

Just now, simplejeff said:

As soon as they are born again by the Will of the Father in heaven!   NOT by man's will, nor of the flesh, nor by blood,   but as written in SCRIPTURE (TRUTH). 

That lifelong process idea usually , maybe not always depending on origin and meaning,  but usually comes from the apostate believers/ apostate church/ false church/ counterfeit church i.e. bad teaching.

No, It comes right out of Eph 1:1. 

[simplejeff]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

When the Holy Spirit raced through the Catholic churches in the '60's, some will filled with the Holy Spirit. It goes without saying, He is only going to fill TRUE Christians! I agree with you here.

I have puzzled over this many times. I have talked with born again Catholics again and again. It seems, their biggest problem is, they don't know they are lost and NEED to be "born again."

Jesus told people HE TALKED TO IN PERSON:     You must be born again.  (joining a church doesn't count nor give life let alone eternal life ! )

Today,  He continues speaking without change, to Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Independents, in the church first, because JUDGMENT BEGINS in the HOUSE OF GOD,   and also outside the church to people with no religion at all - "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN"  ......  "TURN TO THE CREATOR, YAHUWEH (GOD ALMIGHTY),  because HIS KINGDOM IS NOW AT HAND!   CLOSE BY !   HERE< AT THE DOOR> !   "  There's no safety, no time to wait - TODAY IF YOU HEAR THE ECHO OF HIS VOICE,

do not rebel as they did in the wilderness and perished !   Do not rebel IF you hear His Voice ..... obey Him ! TODAY!

If you do not hear His Voice,  DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM,  while HE MIGHT BE FOUND ....... and KEEP ON SEEKING HIM every day, every night, all the time !

[dhchristian]

Just now, dhchristian said:

Just now, simplejeff said:

As soon as they are born again by the Will of the Father in heaven!   NOT by man's will, nor of the flesh, nor by blood,   but as written in SCRIPTURE (TRUTH). 

That lifelong process idea usually , maybe not always depending on origin and meaning,  but usually comes from the apostate believers/ apostate church/ false church/ counterfeit church i.e. bad teaching.

No, It comes right out of Eph 1:1. 

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph 1:1)

We are called to be saints.

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Roman 1:7)

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (I Cor. 1:2)

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:19

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:(eph 4:12)

To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (Col 1:2)

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

You went too far. You see you can use strong's to get scripture to say exactly the opposite of what scripture plainly says. I Know one person who re translated scripture using strong's and it sounds like the Luciferian Bible.

Many times OVER TIME people change the meaning of compound words. A word heard frequently in universities in the 70's and 80's was the word "paradigm." It has gone far from its original meaning of "para" as in parallel or paratrooper; soldiers walking parallel. The "digm" was a showing or displaying. So a paradigm back somewhere in time was to bring two things right up close so one could display or show the difference or similarity.

It has morphed so now a paradigm is an example! The idea of two things side by side so them can be compared is lost.  it is the same with this Greek word. It was made up of two different words, EACH with its own meaning.  We can BET Paul knew well the meaning of each of these words "apo" and Stacia." But let me look it up again so I get it spelled right:

Paul tells us it is the feminine of this word:apostasion. It is made up of two words:From ἀπό (G575) and ἵστημι (G2476).

Do you know how this word was translated before the KJV?

Tyndale: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Both the Coverdale and the Geneva bible used the word Departing. It is an accurate translation of apostasia.

However, it is the entire context of this passage that should show a good student of the bible that the KJV translators missed it. 

Here are some points:  in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED in Paul's argument.

Verses 6-8 tell us he cannot be revealed until the force restraining him is "taken out of the way.  Since HE IS revealed in 3b, then in 3a,  the one restraining must be "taken out of the way." This is just logic. He cannot be revealed until the restraining force is removed.

The only possible conclusion then is that some how hidden in the word apostasia is the force restraining being take out of the way.  think about it. Can sin restrain sin? Can a falling away restrain sin. Can back-slidden people restrain sin or the man of sin?

 

It can only be one of two things in my mind: either before the "falling away" the Holy spirit was using those believers to restrain - OR before the rapture God was using believers to restrain the man of sin.  since the THEME of the passage is the gathering, it makes more sense to be that Paul's intended meaning is the rapture of the church removes the believers in whom the Holy Spirit was using to restrain. Once the rapture takes the church out of the way, the man of sin will then be revealed.