Jump to content
enoob57

How to remain sensible in debate

Recommended Posts

If hermeneutics was the definitive way to test the spirits, everyone using it would always come to the same conclusions, and they don't.  You just have one person accusing another person of sloppy hermeneutics.  All testing the spirits means is making sure a teaching doesn't go against what is in the Bible.  For example, if someone teaches there are many ways to be saved, and faith in any religion will get you to heaven, I know that is not true because the Bible says Jesus is the only name given whereby we must be saved.  

  • This is Worthy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paul made it very clear that even if one understands all knowledge and mysteries (including scripture) -- can move mountains, has all faith . . . and does NOT have LOVE (Grk. agape; i.e., "divine and sacrificial love") . . . then he/she has NOTHING (1 Cor. 13:2). The very next verse in context of that passage sums it all up: This type of "love" is long-suffering, kind, is not envious, and puts others "before" themselves, etc.  Some of the other Christian message boards are a complete mess; and nobody wants to submit to the Truth even when it is presented in an irrefutable manner. 1 Peter 3:15 commands us to give an "answer" (Grk. apologia -- where we get "apologetics" from) to anyone who asks us why we are Christians with "meekness" and "godly" reverence. There are several reasons as to why most Christian online communities are in such a mess (Note: not this one as far as I can tell; you guys are awesome!), and they are:

  • 1. Their mind is already made up; so no amount of truth can change their scriptural viewpoint.
  • 2. Pride. Most people do NOT want to admit that they are in the "wrong" -- especially if they feel that they are to be held to a "higher" standard.
  • 3. They have been indoctrinated by clever, deceitful false teachers who are adroit at twisting and perverting scripture as Satan had done when he was tempting Jesus -- and failed miserably!
  • 4. They are completely "devoid" of any fruits of the Spirit (i.e., "love, joy, peace, gentleness") -- so the one who is to be rebuked for their false teachings will not submit to the truth regardless, because all they see is a self-professed "Christian" who is a BAD example at best.
  • 5. Said person doing the debating has NOT done their "home work". They are not "workmen" approved by God who knows how to "rightly divide" the TRUTH (2 Tim. 2:15).

I make it a personal habit to "pray" every time before I open up my Bible; and before I engage in any discussion with another Christian who may be on the wayward path -- or has not matured enough spiritually to undersand such precious truth's contained in Scripture. We need to care for these younger brothers and sisters in Christ, and nurse them by first giving them the "milk" of the Word. We are to do this with meekness, love, gentleness and humility. I can honestly say that I do not always pass the test, and we are all in this same "boat" in this journey of life -- and we are just passing through. Moreover, we are to instruct others and to do it heartily for the LORD -- and not to win approval from men (Col. 3:1).

In closing:

Nobody is correct in every single truth contained in scripture. And nobody is NEVER wrong at some point or another; and such mentality of those who believe that they are never wrong is evident that this person is puffed-up, self-centered, and is deceiving himself or herself. This type of person will never increase in wisdom and knowledge according to the Bible; because they feel as if they have "arrived", and cannot be taught any thing more than what they already know (i.e., "everything" about the Word of God.). These people are ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). And lastly: straining at gnats that only sow discord, and not focusing on the essentials of the Christian doctrines only hinders the spiritual progress of those who are truly desiring to do so; and such is to be done with humility, patience, and love (cf. Acts 19:9; Rom. 14:1; 1 Cor. 14:26; 2 Cor. 12:20; Col. 2:1-23; 2 Tim. 2:14; 3:16; 4:2; 1 Thess. 2:13; Tit. 2:7; 3:9; Jude 1:3; et al.). Hope this helps!

In Christ, *Pumpkin*

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Butero said:

If hermeneutics was the definitive way to test the spirits, everyone using it would always come to the same conclusions, and they don't.  You just have one person accusing another person of sloppy hermeneutics.  All testing the spirits means is making sure a teaching doesn't go against what is in the Bible.  For example, if someone teaches there are many ways to be saved, and faith in any religion will get you to heaven, I know that is not true because the Bible says Jesus is the only name given whereby we must be saved.  

This is very poor logic saying the system is at fault when we are told the devil wants to confuse and destroy and there is no defense against it except by standing exactly upon The Scriptures, for they are inspired and directly from God, thus the system is not at fault but men who do not follow it accurately... and the thing you are using, above, is to arrive at the conclusion you have arrived at is hermeneutics / contextual literary analysis... whether you like it or not it is just fact! You said there was nothing indicated in Scripture of the hermeneutic principles and that is not true
as I have already quoted it

Isa 28:9-10

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
KJV


this principle is to know as Scripture interprets Scripture and is in line with accurate reasoning: For it is describing truth gleaned in one portion of Scripture will remain that truth in other places where more is found on the subject and the combining result will continue on as both being what they were where they were at (context)= immediate, surrounding verses, chapter, book, testament new or old (depending on where the verse is), entire Bible... If God's foundation, The Word, is all that God is keeping along with the souls of men then it is reasonable that it is the only source by which we continue with God into the eternal state... all else is not trustworthy for it is not kept by God as such! This is not rocket science and contains self evident truth... example: You write something down and examine everything that is there and why and you have developed a hermeneutic in the purpose of that which is written! All writing exist in this scenario because it is communication of one Beings intent to another being... if you make this mystical the word itself becomes moot to this purpose of writing... and it is the Scripture that test all things whether of God or not for The Holy Spirit through written format delivers the intent of God to man....

Edited by enoob57

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

This is very poor logic saying the system is at fault when we are told the devil wants to confuse and destroy and there is no defense against it except by standing exactly upon The Scriptures, for they are inspired and directly from God, thus the system is not at fault but men who do not follow it accurately... and the thing you are using, above, is to arrive at the conclusion you have arrived at is hermeneutics / contextual literary analysis... whether you like it or not it is just fact! You said there was nothing indicated in Scripture of the hermeneutic principles and that is not true
as I have already quoted it

Isa 28:9-10

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
KJV


this principle is to know as Scripture interprets Scripture and is in line with accurate reasoning: For it is describing truth gleaned in one portion of Scripture will remain that truth in other places where more is found on the subject and the combining result will continue on as both being what they were where they were at (context)= immediate, surrounding verses, chapter, book, testament new or old, entire Bible... If God's foundation, The Word, is all that God is keeping along with the souls of men then it is reasonable that it is the only source by which we continue with God into the eternal state... all else is not trustworthy for it is not kept by God as such! This is not rocket science and contains self evident truth... example: You write something down and examine everything that is there and why and you have developed a hermeneutic in the purpose of that which is written! All writing exist in this scenario because it is communication of one Beings intent to another being... if you make this mystical the word itself becomes moot to this purpose of writing..

If what you are saying is true, nearly every person who reads the Bible is using hermeneutics without having any diagrams or knowing any rules.  They do it automatically by simply trying to understand the Bible, so why do we need charts or laws of interpretation if we are doing it already?  I have never knowingly followed a system of hermeneutics because until Shiloh kept throwing the word around, I didn't know what it was, yet everyone keeps saying I am using it without realizing it.  That brings up the question as to who is not using hermeneutics?  I would imagine there may be some, but I can't think of many in my circle of friends.  

  • Praise God! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Butero said:

If what you are saying is true, nearly every person who reads the Bible is using hermeneutics without having any diagrams or knowing any rules.  They do it automatically by simply trying to understand the Bible, so why do we need charts or laws of interpretation if we are doing it already?  I have never knowingly followed a system of hermeneutics because until Shiloh kept throwing the word around, I didn't know what it was, yet everyone keeps saying I am using it without realizing it.  That brings up the question as to who is not using hermeneutics?  I would imagine there may be some, but I can't think of many in my circle of friends.  

You are getting the simple gist of written material and the purpose thereof... the reason a system is needed is like all else- relying on a error to arrive at truth can only distribute further error and like there is only One God so there is only one truth and God through objective means -written communication-  has delivered that complete truth to us all through all time 100 AD to now an onward... this is why God has place a seal on the Revelation it covers  what was (OT period in Scripture and letters circulating around the churches of that time), the is (The New Testament letters in circulation at that specific point and time, which was everything up and to the Revelation), and the will be all the way through to the eternal state Rev 4 and on to the seal... How I know this is true because God 'IS' not keeping any of the 1st creation formed by His Spoken Word but 'IS' maintaining His Written Word till all is fulfilled that being the eternal state onward where all things are possible with no sin present. This is also why I know that the Word alone receives all priorities to life now for it is to be fulfilled to the nth degree in all that is said … this alone should be the motivation to study, meditate, all mind, all strength, all heart the precepts that lie within to a pin pointed unity called truth... this referring to The Living Lord and the written Word by The power of The Holy Spirit perfectly aligned to arrive at knowing Jesus by faith totally built from the precepts within His Word and Living Unction of The Holy Spirit of God.

To answer your second Who is not using … all camps and persuasions when they leave what is written to maintain personal or community adherence of that which cannot be found in the hermeneutic... satan's efforts are always focused on the created instance for that is all he has to work with... we gave it to him when we followed his word (lie) instead of God's Word (truth) and herein is the battle to depart from lie and return to truth and that truth is pure when it follows the written Word as it was given in the intent formed from that writing... The Holy Spirit in us, who believe, and have the new being within have a place to keep that truth undefiled. It is by the promise of God we are kept and we work to make sure by 'The Study' of Scriptures that which is only of Him is relied upon or else we will suffer loss (if we have what we will not let go of... then in the fire of God testing it burns up then we will experience the sense of loss - however immediately we will be of purer heart and the joy of this nearness to God by purity will cease all sense of loss)... The resource of the Word takes us to a place of waiting, child like and without ability to continue  because this is true

1 John 3:2

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
KJV


combined with this 
 

1 Cor 2:9-16

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
KJV


We arrive as far as we can go in this place- personal witness of what:
I know that which is within me belongs to God both by what is written and where I am >by what I value<... For The Holy Spirit through the written Word has brought me to a place that none of my senses can be exercised therein as it is formed outside of fleshly sensual means to identify with- thus fulfilling: eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man... yet because it is formed by written Word and s/Spiritual substance by The Holy Spirit of God I am willing to trade absolutely all that I have, experientially since I began, for the hope of that which 'IS' promised upon which I cannot even know at this time...  undoubtedly to those of us who have Him within this is resonating with you right now; for it is the excited fact of faith undefiled that fades not away - for if in essence this is true within then there only remains the question -> what can be taken from us of this place that would mean more to us? The reality of now and it's value(this present world and my flesh) is made moot by the promise...
 

Heb 11:1-6

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV


It is by The Spoken and written Word whereby I am and it is The Written Word I am 'IS' being brought into the sanctification and unity of I AM that I AM and nothing of this place can take me from this! For it must overthrow The Father, The Son and The holy Spirit to do so... Love, Steven

 

Edited by enoob57

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/2/2018 at 3:40 PM, Christine said:

How to remain sensible in debate?

Hello there,

I have learned by experience, some of that painful, to keep personality out of the debate: and if negative or personal comment is made, to ignore it and stick to the subject in hand.  

* The 'Green Cross Code' used to teach children how to cross the road safely is a good guide too ☺️:-

Stop 
Look  & Listen (before committing yourself and then )  
Go 

* Ask God to help you of course.

* Then this is a good guide to the understanding of a passage, from Miles Coverdale, the Bible Translator, (written in Old English ):-

'It shall greatly help ye to understand the Scriptures 
if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, 
but of whom and to whom
with what words
at what time
where,
to what intent
with what circumstances
considering what goeth before 
and what followeth after.' 
 

With love in Christ Jesus

Chris

 

Hello again,

The opening lines of a poem by Rudyard Kipling, entitled, 'I Keep Six Honest Serving Men', are used as a teaching aid: and are appropriate to the question of the thread, because they stay the mind upon the facts presented in God's Word, and prevent the mind from straying into conjecture and vain imaginings:-

'I Keep six honest serving-men
(they taught me all I knew),
Their names are, 'What' and 'Why' and 'When',
And 'How' and 'Where' and 'Who'.'

In Christ Jesus

Chris

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Yowm said:

You don't think God has raised up teachers as part of the Body of Christ? Or are we all a mouth? A foot? An eye? Etc..

OH yes ,     for sure their are teachers .     YES I fully agree.      TEST them all  , I say , cause the ones I keep testing ,  largely fall short .

BUT their are some good HOLY SPIRIT filled teachers still around .    

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Butero said:

If what you are saying is true, nearly every person who reads the Bible is using hermeneutics without having any diagrams or knowing any rules.  They do it automatically by simply trying to understand the Bible, so why do we need charts or laws of interpretation if we are doing it already?  I have never knowingly followed a system of hermeneutics because until Shiloh kept throwing the word around, I didn't know what it was, yet everyone keeps saying I am using it without realizing it.  That brings up the question as to who is not using hermeneutics?  I would imagine there may be some, but I can't think of many in my circle of friends.  

I am simply going to say this and leave on this note .    GOD inspired those letters ,  HIS SPIRIT inspired paul and those men .     SO ALL I NEED is that SAME SPIRIT .

THE SPIRIT knows .     IT KNOWS .     AND  I fully , with all the heart believe ,   IF a humble child is in need of wisdom , understanding ,   knowledge ,

ITS ONLY A PRAYER AWAY .   GOD desires what is best for us .   not men  .   GOD .    SO I TRUST HIM .      NOW THROW THOSE HANDS UP AND DO A TRIPLE PRAISE TO THE LORD .

Why do I need cleverly devised techniques ,  WHEN ALL I NEED IS THE SPIRIT .    TRUST whom ye will this day , AS FOR ME , ITS GOD , ITS HIS SPIRIT .  

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, *Pumpkin* said:

Paul made it very clear that even if one understands all knowledge and mysteries (including scripture) -- can move mountains, has all faith . . . and does NOT have LOVE (Grk. agape; i.e., "divine and sacrificial love") . . . then he/she has NOTHING (1 Cor. 13:2). The very next verse in context of that passage sums it all up: This type of "love" is long-suffering, kind, is not envious, and puts others "before" themselves, etc.  Some of the other Christian message boards are a complete mess; and nobody wants to submit to the Truth even when it is presented in an irrefutable manner. 1 Peter 3:15 commands us to give an "answer" (Grk. apologia -- where we get "apologetics" from) to anyone who asks us why we are Christians with "meekness" and "godly" reverence. There are several reasons as to why most Christian online communities are in such a mess (Note: not this one as far as I can tell; you guys are awesome!), and they are:

  • 1. Their mind is already made up; so no amount of truth can change their scriptural viewpoint.
  • 2. Pride. Most people do NOT want to admit that they are in the "wrong" -- especially if they feel that they are to be held to a "higher" standard.
  • 3. They have been indoctrinated by clever, deceitful false teachers who are adroit at twisting and perverting scripture as Satan had done when he was tempting Jesus -- and failed miserably!
  • 4. They are completely "devoid" of any fruits of the Spirit (i.e., "love, joy, peace, gentleness") -- so the one who is to be rebuked for their false teachings will not submit to the truth regardless, because all they see is a self-professed "Christian" who is a BAD example at best.
  • 5. Said person doing the debating has NOT done their "home work". They are not "workmen" approved by God who knows how to "rightly divide" the TRUTH (2 Tim. 2:15).

I make it a personal habit to "pray" every time before I open up my Bible; and before I engage in any discussion with another Christian who may be on the wayward path -- or has not matured enough spiritually to undersand such precious truth's contained in Scripture. We need to care for these younger brothers and sisters in Christ, and nurse them by first giving them the "milk" of the Word. We are to do this with meekness, love, gentleness and humility. I can honestly say that I do not always pass the test, and we are all in this same "boat" in this journey of life -- and we are just passing through. Moreover, we are to instruct others and to do it heartily for the LORD -- and not to win approval from men (Col. 3:1).

In closing:

Nobody is correct in every single truth contained in scripture. And nobody is NEVER wrong at some point or another; and such mentality of those who believe that they are never wrong is evident that this person is puffed-up, self-centered, and is deceiving himself or herself. This type of person will never increase in wisdom and knowledge according to the Bible; because they feel as if they have "arrived", and cannot be taught any thing more than what they already know (i.e., "everything" about the Word of God.). These people are ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Tim. 3:7). And lastly: straining at gnats that only sow discord, and not focusing on the essentials of the Christian doctrines only hinders the spiritual progress of those who are truly desiring to do so; and such is to be done with humility, patience, and love (cf. Acts 19:9; Rom. 14:1; 1 Cor. 14:26; 2 Cor. 12:20; Col. 2:1-23; 2 Tim. 2:14; 3:16; 4:2; 1 Thess. 2:13; Tit. 2:7; 3:9; Jude 1:3; et al.). Hope this helps!

In Christ, *Pumpkin*

 

Pumpkin ,  I don't care what ROME would say about ya ,   OL frienduff loves ya .  YOU THROW THOSE HANDS UP and JUST LEAP UP and REJOICE IN and PRAISE THE LORD .   

OH HE IS WORTHY of all praise .   JUST JOY in the LORD .   HE IS WHO WE ALL NEED and at all times .     

  • Thumbs Up 1
  • Loved it! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Christine said:

Hello again,

The opening lines of a poem by Rudyard Kipling, entitled, 'I Keep Six Honest Serving Men', are used as a teaching aid: and are appropriate to the question of the thread, because they stay the mind upon the facts presented in God's Word, and prevent the mind from straying into conjecture and vain imaginings:-

'I Keep six honest serving-men
(they taught me all I knew),
Their names are, 'What' and 'Why' and 'When',
And 'How' and 'Where' and 'Who'.'

In Christ Jesus

Chris

WELL dear sister ,  YOU ARE LOVED .      I GOT FIVE in one .       J       E        S           U          S.         AND cant anyone argue with that . HE IS WHOM I DIRELY NEED AT ALL TIMES .

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
  • Praise God! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×