Those Days Will Be Shortened

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, childoftheking said:

 

 

I disagree based upon Revelation 7 specifies John asking the Angel who is this great multitude of people from EVERY NATION, CREED, KINDRED, TONGUE?   The Angel replies, these are those who went through the Tribulation.

 

Chapter 20 then a smaller group was designated as those beheaded, but DID NOT completely go through the Tribulation.

 

In my opinion, the fact the Angel specifies this great multitude of people from EVERY NATION, CREED, KINDRED, TONGUE could not be Jews only!!   It would be impossible to be Jews only how John wrote it.

Those who come out of the G.T. are of every, tribe, nation, language including those of Israel.  But these individuals go directly into the Mill to be ruled  (by Jesus Christ and His Bride plus the beheaded ones), and they who make it out of the G.T. alive are also to repopulate the earth.  These are those who did not accept the Mark of the Beast or Worship him.  The Bride is already gone without a Red Flag being reveled.  Watch and be Ready Now.  The Church has been under some sort of tribulation for the past 2000 years, that was promised to us.  Plus no Mark of the Beast yet.  Why would most of the Bride not have the chance to not take the Mark of the Beast, while only a few do have this chance.  The Bride is ONE.

Those who are under the Altar, those beheaded during the 70th Week and they came from the G.T.  Not the Bride.  99.9% of the Bride have never been beheaded, thus we are not under the Altar in Heaven.  We do not need to plead with Christ as these under the Altar are doing.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[childoftheking]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Those who come out of the G.T. are of every, tribe, nation, language including those of Israel.  But these individuals go directly into the Mill to be ruled  (by Jesus Christ and His Bride plus the beheaded ones), and they who make it out of the G.T. alive are also to repopulate the earth.  These are those who did not accept the Mark of the Beast or Worship him.  The Bride is already gone without a Red Flag being reveled.  Watch and be Ready Now.  The Church has been under some sort of tribulation for the past 2000 years, that was promised to us.  Plus no Mark of the Beast yet.  Why would most of the Bride not have the chance to not take the Mark of the Beast, while only a few do have this chance.  The Bride is ONE.

Those who are under the Altar, those beheaded during the 70th Week and they came from the G.T.  Not the Bride.  99.9% of the Bride have never been beheaded, thus we are not under the Altar in Heaven.  We do not need to plead with Christ as these under the Altar are doing.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

I have a big family and if any member disappeared we would know it immediately.   But you believe in Pre-trib so you are making excuses like those left behind will not notice billion people have disappeared for no reason and cannot be found.   Even though they do not believe in God, these sinners are scientists, mathematicians, teachers, etc...it's not like they won't notice a billion people gone when many its their job to study people.

 

Common sense goes a long way in thinking here, we should put it to good use.

 

I get it, no one wants to go through the trib, but Yeshua claims we will, and Revelation claims it will be a great multitude...like the billions who would go Pre-Trib if God said Pre-Trib, but He DOES NOT!!

Edited May 3, 2019 by childoftheking

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, childoftheking said:

The 2nd Advent is no mistake where they put it on the timeline of this chart.

I disagree: first it will be His THIRD coming (not the "second advent," second, there is some amount of TIME after the week ends and when He comes, as shown by the events of chapters 17 & 18, before His coming in chapter 19. For example, the marriage and supper are two such events.

Edited May 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

41 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

I have a big family and if any member disappeared we would know it immediately.   But you believe in Pre-trib so you are making excuses like those left behind will not notice billion people have disappeared for no reason and cannot be found.   Even though they do not believe in God, these sinners are scientists, mathematicians, teachers, etc...it's not like they won't notice a billion people gone when many its their job to study people.

Common sense goes a long way in thinking here, we should put it to good use.

I get it, no one wants to go through the trib, but Yeshua claims we will, and Revelation claims it will be a great multitude...like the billions who would go Pre-Trib if God said Pre-Trib, but He DOES NOT!!

OF COURSE the world will know! Perhaps half the world population will suddenly disappear (I think all the kids under the age of accountability will go to). This event will shake up the world like nothing else ever has. The man of sin turned beast will reassure all who are left behind that they were taken by aliens and it is a good thing: they were the troublemakers, and now they are gone.

No, Yeshua does NOT claim we will go through the trib (70th week).  Some imagine He does, but in reality He does not. He DOES show us that the JEWS and HEBREWS that are left behind will go through THEIR week. 

The verse you are thinking of in Revelation is the raptured church, NOT those left behind!  No wonder we disagree so much! Please note carefully (if possible): in chapter 7, John has not yet even STARTED "the tribulation."  It will not begin until the first trumpet judgment - and will not arrive at days of GT until after the midpoint abomination, as Jesus said, which in Revelation is marked by the 7th trumpet.  I think you have much yet to learn. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Those who come out of the G.T. are of every, tribe, nation, language including those of Israel.  But these individuals go directly into the Mill to be ruled  (by Jesus Christ and His Bride plus the beheaded ones), and they who make it out of the G.T. alive are also to repopulate the earth.  These are those who did not accept the Mark of the Beast or Worship him.  The Bride is already gone without a Red Flag being reveled.  Watch and be Ready Now.  The Church has been under some sort of tribulation for the past 2000 years, that was promised to us.  Plus no Mark of the Beast yet.  Why would most of the Bride not have the chance to not take the Mark of the Beast, while only a few do have this chance.  The Bride is ONE.

Those who are under the Altar, those beheaded during the 70th Week and they came from the G.T.  Not the Bride.  99.9% of the Bride have never been beheaded, thus we are not under the Altar in Heaven.  We do not need to plead with Christ as these under the Altar are doing.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I disagree with your last paragraph: those under the altar are CHURCH AGE martyrs. John has not yet even finished the church age, much less arrived at even the start of the 70th week.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Some will say, that is mean of God!!

I was predestined before I was ever born to be born into a family of believers that eventually I would also believe.

The same can be said for sinners who end up in the Lake of Fire, they were predestined to deny and not accept God.

Therefore, in final Tribulation, God is not providing the biggest CLUE by removing millions and billions of believers for sinners to reject the Mark from word go!!

I don't even know what you are saying here! It is probably true that GOD KNEW from before earth was created who all would end up with Him, and who would end up in the lake of fire. But I don't believe any one human is predestined (forced to go against his or her will) to either place. 

It will be true, God is going to catch up perhaps 50% of the world's population. It will shake the world like nothing ever before. But people will GET OVER IT. It will be days of judgment, and God will hit them with one thing after another, PROVING He is God and has control over even the sun and stars. Yet, people will refuse to repent.  

I think it is even possible that God will allow the world to SEE those caught up as they fly away out of site. It will cause great jealously to the Jews, and may be what turns the 144,000 to Jesus.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Also, another point I wanted separate on its own:

I was impressed by God a few years ago to see things like I do.   My Grandfather and Father preached PRE-TRIB and I was raised PRE-TRIB.   But I was impressed that Tribulation means trial or test.   And this Tribulation is the final test for those unsaved.   

What I was impressed about:  If God pulls out 2 billion people tomorrow to kick off the Tribulation, the majority left will have some family member they remember as a believer and will get beheaded.   Revelations 20 makes it clear only a small group, not a great multitude will be beheaded.   Therefore, I do not believe God is going to give the last day sinners any clues like yanking 2 Billion people from the face of the Earth just by vanishing.   This is why I know it is POST-TRIB!!

These sinners have had a lifetime of being introduced to God and denying Him.   God therefore is not giving them clues by yanking us before the Tribulation.   Revelations and Paul specifies there will be a GREAT DELUSION in the end days.   And yanking 2 billion people or those who belong to churches would not be part of a GREAT DELUSION, it would be a key sign for unbelievers.   And this IS NOT WHAT GOD IS GOING TO DO, GIVE THE LAST DAY SINNERS ANY CLUES!!

This is human reasoning, not scripture. The truth is, God expects and WANTS people to repent all through the tribulation.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, childoftheking said:

I disagree based upon Revelation 7 specifies John asking the Angel who is this great multitude of people from EVERY NATION, CREED, KINDRED, TONGUE?   The Angel replies, these are those who went through the Tribulation.

Chapter 20 then a smaller group was designated as those beheaded, but DID NOT completely go through the Tribulation.

In my opinion, the fact the Angel specifies this great multitude of people from EVERY NATION, CREED, KINDRED, TONGUE could not be Jews only!!   It would be impossible to be Jews only how John wrote it.

I wonder what bible you are reading: my bible gives NO HINT as to the number of the beheaded.  OF COURSE it will be far less than that awesome group of the raptured church, "too large to number." But it could be many millions.  The holocaust took 6 million. Jesus said this time will be worse.

OF COURSE if one is beheaded, they will not finish the days of tribulation on earth: absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Rev. 15 sees them beginning to enter heaven.

In chapter 7, with the great crowd, too large to number, you are being led astray when John wrote that these came out of GT. Note carefully, John does not show us any beheaded from the days of GT until chapter 15! The truth is, the timing of that great crowd seen in heaven is before the 70th week or "the trib" as some call it, will begin. It does not begin until the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

All John is telling us is that it will be GT at the time of the rapture. What does that mean? It only means that many will be being martyred around the world at the time of the rapture. Stop and think: for someone martyred, how could "tribulation" be any greater? They cannot be killed twice! Read it again and believe: Only the raptured church, 50 or so generations of believers will be a group too large to number!

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Holy Spirit does not know when the Rapture will be, only God the Father.  So the exact time for the Rapture is NOT in Scripture.  We are given two directives, Watch, and Be Ready.  For how long, Since the beginning of the Church.

The thing is that Matt 24 is not for the Church, it is for Israel.  Israel must go through these things.

Again one must look at 2 Thess 2:2 .... some report saying that the day of the Lord has already come.  What was being taught at that time.  The Rapture and the 2nd Coming.  What did some think they had missed?  Not the 2nd Coming, for all would have been completed, but Rome still controlled the land.  So some thought they had missed the Rapture.  Then Paul has to clarify as to when this event is to take place.  So the Rapture and the 2nd Coming are two separate events.  If no one knows the time for the Rapture except the Father,  It's time is not in Scripture.  So your H.S. giving you insight on when the Rapture will take place is a false narrative, for the H.S. does not KNOW.  The Rapture is unexpected; a time when there is eating, parties, marriage, and giving in marriage; all status quo. This has been going on for over 2000 years.  And some think that there will be a Red Flag notifying us before this event (Rapture) will happen.  Certainly not.  There are Red Flags throughout the 70th Week.  The 70th Week itself is a Red Flag.  Causing a time; this is of the essence.  Be Ready.  But Scripture tells us to Watch and be Ready Now, Why would one have to be Ready during the 70th Week?  Only because they are not Ready Now.

In Christ

Montana Marv
 

Great post, Marv!

[childoftheking]

19 Proofs we are Living in the End Time

We are asked quite often why we believe in a post-tribulation rapture. The 19 points below explain our position.

 

 

1. Matthew 24:29-31 clearly says that the rapture happens after the Great Tribulation. Some will say that “the elect” in this passage applies to the Jews, but there is no scriptural proof of this. Furthermore, a study of the word elect or election in the New Testament reveals that every time the word is used, it refers to the church, not to the Jews. The most poignant case is Romans 11:7. Even in Matthew 24, Jesus uses the word elect (verses 22 and 24) to refer to the church, not the unbelieving Jewish people. Further support of verse 31 as the rapture of the church are the verses that follow it, which describe, among other things, two being in the field – one is taken, the other left. This is the rapture.
2. II Thessalonians 2:1-4 clearly says that the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture. Verse 6 clearly says that what is holding back the revelation of the Antichrist is that it’s not time yet.
3. Revelation 20:4-6 says that saints who were killed during the mark of the beast period – the Great Tribulation – would be part of the “first” resurrection. This conflicts with the pre-tribulation rapture theory, which states that the first resurrection happens before the mark of the beast. The pre-tribulation rapture theory converts the resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 into the “second” resurrection, while John takes great pains to tell us that it’s the first. In an attempt to avoid scripture breakdown, those who hold to a pre-tribulation rapture have said in the past, “There have been many first resurrections.” This of course is absurd and wholly unnecessary. Also, it has been said that a rapture and a resurrection are not the same. But the rapture is when the dead in Christ rise. This is the very definition of resurrection.
4. Matthew 13’s parable of the wheat and the tares (verses 24-30 and 36-43) describes the harvest of the wicked and good as one simultaneous event, not two events separated by seven years. Those who say it does allow for a seven year gap cannot explain away verse 30, which says, “Gather ye together first the tares (the wicked).” According to Jesus, the wheat is not harvested before the tares.
5. I Thessalonians 4:15-18 talks about the rapture of those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord. The Greek word for remain is “perileipo.” According to Strong’s, it can also be translated as “survive.” This is not surprising, because the word “peril” is at the root of “perileipo.” Remain means “remain as in surviving the peril.” This does not seem to support a pre-tribulation rapture theory.
6. In Revelation 13:7, the Antichrist makes war against saints who are from all kindreds, tongues, and nations. That does not describe Jews-only.
7. I Corinthians 15:51-54 speaks of the last trump. Revelation 11:15-19 speaks of the last trump. The description of what happens at the last trump in each of these passages is the same.
8. Every prophecy student would agree that the rapture is when the Lord comes as a thief. Many warnings are given of this in the New Testament, among them Matthew 24:42-43, I Thessalonians 5:2, and II Peter 3:10. One such warning is given in Revelation 16:15. It’s the final, last minute warning: “Behold, I come as a thief.” But notice the context. The following verse is the Battle of Armageddon – the 7th Vial. Why would God be issuing a warning that He will be coming as a thief right up until Armageddon, if He came as a thief seven years prior to this? The answer is, of course, He wouldn’t.
9. It has been theorized that when the Lord comes as a thief in the night, this speaks of a Secret Coming. I Thessalonians 5:1-8 clearly teaches, however, that the church will know when He is coming. The Church will not be taken by surprise. Only the unsaved will be taken by surprise. It is hard to understand where the Secret Coming theory was even conceived.
10. It has been commonly taught that the Great Tribulation is the Wrath of God. The Bible teaches the opposite. When the Great Tribulation ends, this is when the God’s Wrath begins. Proof: One of the events that takes place during the Wrath of God is that the sun, moon, and stars will go dark. It is described in the 6th Seal – Revelation 6:12-17. It specifically calls it the Wrath of God. The sun, moon, and stars going dark is also spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:29, only Jesus gives us the timing. He says that it occurs after the Great Tribulation. According to Jesus, the Wrath of God is not the Great Tribulation, but rather, the Wrath of God occurs after the Great Tribulation. To operate under the wrong assumption that God’s Wrath is the Tribulation results in nothing but confusion.
11. Revelation 12:7-17 describes the events of the Great Tribulation. This can be proven by comparing it with all other passages in the Bible that speak of a three and one-half year period of time (1,260 days, 42 months, “time, times, and half a time”). Verse 12 calls the Great Tribulation the time of Satan’s Wrath. After all, God does not persecute His own people. Satan does.
12. I Thessalonians 5:9 teaches that God’s people are not appointed unto God’s Wrath. The post-tribulation rapture teaching agrees with this. As stated above, the Great Tribulation is not God’s Wrath. It is Satan’s Wrath. History records that 11 of the 12 apostles were martyred. Saints today are not immune from the trials, temptations, and persecutions of Satan. It has been said that God wouldn’t beat up His bride before marrying her. That is certainly true. He wouldn’t. But Satan would.
13. The pre-tribulation rapture theory states that there is one Second Coming, but that it happens in two phases. (We find this premise to be a stretch.) It is said that the first phase is for His church. It’s the rapture, also called the Secret Coming. The second phase is Matthew 24:31’s gathering of the Jews, which they call the Glorious Appearing. It occurs at the end of the final seven years. There are some scriptures which are in conflict with this theory. Here are two: Titus 2:11-13 instructs the church to live righteously in this present world right up until, not the Secret Coming, but the Glorious Appearing. I Peter 1:5-7 teaches that trials and temptations will continue for the church all the way up until, not the Secret Coming, but the Glorious Appearing.
14. In order to know the timing of the rapture, you must of course understand how the book of Revelation is structured. The pre-tribulation rapture theory is based on the assumption that Revelation was written in a chronological sequence. This means, it is assumed that the events of the endtime are recorded in Revelation in the order they will happen: First the Seals, then the Trumpets, and then the Vials. If it can be proven, however, that Revelation was not written in chronological order, then the house of cards falls. And it does. A simple comparison between the 7th Trumpet (Chapter 11) and 7th Vial (Chapter 16) reveals that they are the same, singular event. Add to this comparison the 6th Seal (Chapter 6), Ezekiel 38:18-22, and Matthew 24:29 and we find that all five of these passages describe the exact same event. The 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial is one event that is described in Chapter 6, again in Chapter 11, and again in 16. Obviously, Revelation is not in the assumed chronological sequence. This is one of several proofs that Revelation is not sequential from front to back. And with this understanding, the underlying assumption upon which the pre-tribulation rapture is based collapses.
15. It has been commonly accepted that in order for the Antichrist to rise to power, the Holy Ghost must be removed from the earth. The basis for this conclusion is II Thessalonians 2:7. There are a few problems with the theory. First and foremost, we already demonstrated above that the first 4 verses of this same chapter mandate the revelation of the Antichrist before the rapture, not after. Paul would not reverse his position so radically three verses later. Second, it is assumed that the “he” in verse 7 is the Holy Ghost, but there is no proof whatsoever for this. And finally, if there is no Holy Ghost on earth during the Great Tribulation, then what power is being used by the Two Witnesses to perform all of their miracles. Revelation 13:5-7 and other passages describe people on earth during the Tribulation who are born again. How can a person be born again without the Holy Ghost? The pre-tribulation rapture theory states that those who are left behind will have a second chance at salvation. The parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) teaches that He comes once and there is no second chance to make the rapture.
16. Some have taught a mid-tribulation rapture. However, this position is impossible since it assumes that the Tribulation lasts for seven years. Yet, there is not one scripture in the entire Bible that describes a seven-year tribulation. Every description of the Tribulation in the Bible teaches that it lasts for three and one-half years. Daniel 7:25, 12:1-7, Revelation 11:3-12, 12:6, 12:7-12, 12:13-17, and 13:5-7. The misunderstanding about a seven-year tribulation comes from Daniel 9:27, which speaks of a covenant that will be confirmed for seven years. This verse teaches that the abomination of desolation will occur halfway through the seven-year period. Jesus said that the abomination of desolation would mark the beginning of the great tribulation (Matthew 24:15-21). From this we know that the great tribulation only lasts for three and one-half years.
17. Many have taught that the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1. John is told to “Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.” This passage has nothing to do with the rapture. It simply means what it says: “I will show you things that must be hereafter.” This is simply the point in John’s writings when he begins recording the events of the future.
    In Revelation 1:19, John is told to write three things: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.” Chapters 1-3 contain “…the things thou hast seen, and the things which are.” Chapter 4, verse 1 simply moves into “… the things which shall be hereafter.”
18. Revelation 3:10 is cited by some as proof of a pre-tribulation rapture. The passage says: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Some contend that as God protected the church of Philadelphia from temptations that would come upon the world, so shall He protect us from the Great Tribulation. This passage was simply a message to the Philadelphian church that John had oversight of after he was released from the exile on the Isle of Patmos. A similar message was written to the church of Smyrna in Revelation 2:10: “…the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days…” Does this mean that the great tribulation will only last ten days? Of course not. Again, this is a message to one of the seven churches of Asia Minor, which John would overseer after his release from exile.
19. Matthew 24:37, “But as the days of Noah were so shall the coming of the Son of man be,” is offered as proof of a pre-tribulation rapture by some. It is explained that God helped His chosen escape the great tribulation of the flood, and so likewise shall He rapture His church from the coming tribulation. However, it should be noticed that God protected Noah through the flood. He did not bring Noah into heaven to avoid the flood. Furthermore, the coming of the Son of man to which the days of Noah were being compared was the coming just described in verses 29-31, which the passage specifically says will take place immediately after the tribulation.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by childoftheking