Those Days Will Be Shortened

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Interesting, you claim God has not shown the beginning of Tribulation, yet, the Angel specifies the great multitude COMES FROM TRIBULATION and then in chapter 20 we find the beheaded's (much much much smaller number).

Can you twist this any more for your False View?

Wow! Is the daylight beginning to shine through? That would be a miracle! 

Imagine you pick up a book titled "World War II From Start to Finish." You begin reading of Japan's push up into China, before the war officially began.  After a while you read of Germany's invasion of Poland. But the next chapter catches you entirely by surprise. It is titled "the US invasion of Okinawa. You wonder, what on earth is that doing in the front of the book: that was the last big battle of the war!  I just couldn't be in the front of the book. You finally call the author and ask. He tells you it was a mistake of the publisher, and they are correcting it. That chapter was suppose to be in the back of the book!

You see, your scenario of this great crowd, too large to number being those martyred by the Beast, just does not fit in chapter 7! John has not yet started "the tribulation!" It is not a publisher's mistake either - it is a problem of mistaken identity!  These people are not martyrs of any time, and John has not yet started the "70th week" or "the tribulation" as some call it. That time starts with the 7th seal and ends at the 7th vial. According to Jesus, the days of great tribulation won't begin until after the abomination. That means the MIDDLE Of the week.  Your theory that pulls people from after the midpoint, somewhere in chapters 11 through 14, and places them OUT OF TIMING into chapter 7. You have been caught! Your human reasoning has been found wanting. Your theory simply won't work. We find the FIRST martys from the BEAST showing up in heaven in chapter 15! This is 8 chapters after chapter 7.  Now, WHO is trying to twist scriptures? 

Did you just overlook the fact that John mentions those two words together: "great tribulation" in chapter 2 also? He was CERTAINLY not speaking of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. The ONLY conclusion a good bible student can come up with is that when these two words are used together, "great" and "tribulation" it does not always mean those days Jesus spoke of that come in the second half of the week, AFTER the man of sin has been revealed, the daily sacrifices stopped, and the False Prophet showed up. In fact, it seems to have gone right over your head that these two words, "great tribulation" were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe those days after the abomination, when the man of sin will turn into the Beast.  Jesus had to go on to say there was never and will be never again such days.

You should know now that the huge crowd seen in chapter 7 has NOTHING TO DO with the days of tribulation. Those days have not arrived yet in John's narrative.  The truth? You should know better. You have been to seminary.

In other words, the CHURCH AGE has been both tribulation and great tribulation, but neither are about those days of GT that Jesus spoke of that won't come until the second half of the week.

Edited May 13, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Now you are just taking scripture with WRATH in it to create a mythical scenario...

You just cannot admit you are in error. So be it. All the readers know.

[childoftheking]

35 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Wow! Is the daylight beginning to shine through? That would be a miracle! 

Imagine you pick up a book titled "World War II From Start to Finish." You begin reading of Japan's push up into China, before the war officially began.  After a while you read of Germany's invasion of Poland. But the next chapter catches you entirely by surprise. It is titled "the US invasion of Okinawa. You wonder, what on earth is that doing in the front of the book: that was the last big battle of the war!  I just couldn't be in the front of the book. You finally call the author and ask. He tells you it was a mistake of the publisher, and they are correcting it. That chapter was suppose to be in the back of the book!

You see, your scenario of this great crowd, too large to number being those martyred by the Beast, just does not fit in chapter 7! John has not yet started "the tribulation!" It is not a publisher's mistake either - it is a problem of mistaken identity!  These people are not martyrs of any time, and John has not yet started the "70th week" or "the tribulation" as some call it. That time starts with the 7th seal and ends at the 7th vial. According to Jesus, the days of great tribulation won't begin until after the abomination. That means the MIDDLE Of the week.  Your theory that pulls people from after the midpoint, somewhere in chapters 11 through 14, and places them OUT OF TIMING into chapter 7. You have been caught! Your human reasoning has been found wanting. Your theory simply won't work. We find the FIRST martys from the BEAST showing up in heaven in chapter 15! This is 8 chapters after chapter 7.  Now, WHO is trying to twist scriptures? 

Did you just overlook the fact that John mentions those two words together: "great tribulation" in chapter 2 also? He was CERTAINLY not speaking of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. The ONLY conclusion a good bible student can come up with is that when these two words are used together, "great" and "tribulation" it does not always mean those days Jesus spoke of that come in the second half of the week, AFTER the man of sin has been revealed, the daily sacrifices stopped, and the False Prophet showed up. In fact, it seems to have gone right over your head that these two words, "great tribulation" were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe those days after the abomination, when the man of sin will turn into the Beast.  Jesus had to go on to say there was never and will be never again such days.

You should know now that the huge crowd seen in chapter 7 has NOTHING TO DO with the days of tribulation. Those days have not arrived yet in John's narrative.  The truth? You should know better. You have been to seminary.

In other words, the CHURCH AGE has been both tribulation and great tribulation, but neither are about those days of GT that Jesus spoke of that won't come until the second half of the week.

 

If you are using the verses that prove the Second Coming for a Pre-Trib rapture, then where are the other set of verses about the Second coming?

 

And so far, you used Luke (which was discussing the snares of this world NOT THE TRIBULATION), and have used 1 Thess (which is clear as a new plane of glass, that Paul answered their question if they would ever see their dead friends and loved ones again).   Then you believe that the Chapters are in chronological order in the Book of Revelation (because chapter 7 speaks of the Elect gathered at the END of Tribulation and chapter 20 mentions those who refused the Mark).   

 

So far, nothing you claim lines up.

 

And, it's obvious the verses you use for Pre-Trib describe the Second Coming.

 

No wonder no one but Montana believes you.   Everyone else understands your verses are specifically for the Second Coming, not about 2 Comings of Yeshua.

 

 

[childoftheking]

42 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You just cannot admit you are in error. So be it. All the readers know.

 

No, only ONE has claimed to believe you.   The rest who have posted have been against you.   You are only deceiving yourself!!

[childoftheking]

CHAPTER 4

AND now Hezekiah and Josab my son, these are the days of the completion of the world.

2. After it is consummated, Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king.

3. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.

4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.

5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.

6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."

7. And all the people in the world will believe in him.

8. And they will sacrifice to him and they will serve him saying: "This is God and beside him there is no other."

9. And they greater number of those who shall have been associated together in order to receive the Beloved, he will turn aside after him.

10. And there will be the power of his miracles in every city and region.

11. And he will set up his image before him in every city.

12. And he shall bear sway three years and seven months and twenty-seven days.

13. And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping, who was crucified, Yeshua, [after that I, Isaiah, had seen Him who was crucified and ascended] and those also who were believers in Him - of these few in those days will be left as His servants, while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved.

14. And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies.

15. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed]:

Edited May 13, 2019 by childoftheking

[Montana Marv]

54 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

CHAPTER 4

AND now Hezekiah and Josab my son, these are the days of the completion of the world.

2. After it is consummated, Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king.

3. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.

4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.

5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.

6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."

7. And all the people in the world will believe in him.

8. And they will sacrifice to him and they will serve him saying: "This is God and beside him there is no other."

9. And they greater number of those who shall have been associated together in order to receive the Beloved, he will turn aside after him.

10. And there will be the power of his miracles in every city and region.

11. And he will set up his image before him in every city.

12. And he shall bear sway three years and seven months and twenty-seven days.

13. And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping, who was crucified, Yeshua, [after that I, Isaiah, had seen Him who was crucified and ascended] and those also who were believers in Him - of these few in those days will be left as His servants, while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved.

14. And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies.

15. And He will give rest of the godly whom He shall find in the body in this world, [and the sun will be ashamed]:

I like your verse 7.  And all the people in the world will believe him.  And you say you are Post Trib.  So you will believe him with the rest.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, childoftheking said:

3. Will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.

The Church and Apostles were a mystery not given until after Christ's death.  It was not foretold.

1 hour ago, childoftheking said:

14. And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies.

And this one;  first time I have ever heard of the seventh heaven.  2 Cor 12:2 mentions the Third Heaven

I can see why this was not part of the Canon of Scripture.  Looks like an Unbelievers paraphrase.

Keep it coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[childoftheking]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

I like your verse 7.  And all the people in the world will believe him.  And you say you are Post Trib.  So you will believe him with the rest.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Yes, those who have denied the INVISIBLE GOD will believe the visible God.   For the Believers, that will be an obvious red flag.   Well, except for the Pre-Tribbers convinced He will return like verse 13 points out:

 

13. And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping, who was crucified, Yeshua, [after that I, Isaiah, had seen Him who was crucified and ascended] and those also who were believers in Him - of these few in those days will be left as His servants, while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved.

 

^love this verse:

 

The first part is a clear indicator of those believing in a False Doctrine and will accept the antichrist as the Christ returned and they become the antichrist's SERVANTS:

The second part are those NOT FOOLED by the antichrist because they NEVER fell for the False doctrine (obviously speaking about the False Demonic Doctrine of Pre-Trib) will run away knowing that IS NOT Yeshua (because they remember Matthew 24 that Yeshua does not return until AFTER Tribulation ends)!!

[childoftheking]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

The Church and Apostles were a mystery not given until after Christ's death.  It was not foretold.

And this one;  first time I have ever heard of the seventh heaven.  2 Cor 12:2 mentions the Third Heaven

I can see why this was not part of the Canon of Scripture.  Looks like an Unbelievers paraphrase.

Keep it coming.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

These Books were part of the Hebrew Collection before being destroyed and some were left out when restored by Ezra.

But, if you have never heard of more than 3 heavens, you clearly have not read Enoch or Jasher and those Books are mentioned in your current Canon.

"The 10 Heavens of the 2nd Book of Enoch (II Enoch) "

 

Shamayim (שָׁמַיִם), the Hebrew word for "heaven" (literally means heavens, plural):

 

 

Seven Heavens[edit]

The system of Seven Heavens, named:^[5][6][7]

1. Vilon (וִילוֹן) or Araphel (עֲרָפֶל) The first heaven, governed by Archangel Gabriel, is the closest of heavenly realms to the Earth; it is also considered the abode of Adam and Eve.
2. Raqia (רָקִיעַ): The second heaven is dually controlled by Zachariel and Raphael. It was in this heaven that Moses, during his visit to Paradise, encountered the angel Nurielwho stood "300 parasangs high, with a retinue of 50 myriads of angels all fashioned out of water and fire". Also, Raqia is considered the realm where the fallen angels are imprisoned and the planets fastened.^[8]
3. Shehaqim (שְׁחָקִים, Shechaqim): The third heaven, under the leadership of Anahel, serves as the home of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Life; it is also the realm where manna, the holy food of angels, is produced.^[9] The Second Book of Enoch, meanwhile, states that both Paradise and hell are accommodated in Shehaqim with hell being located simply "on the northern side".
4. Maon (מִעוּן): The fourth heaven is ruled by the Archangel Michael, and according to Talmud Hagiga 12, it contains the heavenly Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Altar.
5. Makon (מִכּוּן, Makhon): The fifth heaven is under the administration of Samael. It is also where the Ishim and the Song-Uttering Choirs reside.
6. Zebul (זִבּוּל): The sixth heaven falls under the jurisdiction of Sachiel.
7. Araboth (עֲרֵבוּת, Aravoth): The seventh heaven, under the leadership of Cassiel, is the holiest of the seven heavens because it houses the Throne of God attended by the Seven Archangels and serves as the realm in which God dwells; underneath the throne itself lies the abode of all unborn human souls. It is also considered the home of the Seraphim, the Cherubim, and the Hayyoth.^[10]

 

 

^{As I have been saying, until you know the actual Hebrew, you have no idea what they were told and instructed to understand by Yahweh!!}

Edited May 13, 2019 by childoftheking

[childoftheking]

Montana,

You really need to study!!

Your Canon is so limited it reveals just glimpses of God.

If you knew the Hebrew, it would allow you to even respect more of the greatness of Yahweh and His Creation:

 

 

 

 

the seven heavens refer to seven levels or divisions of Heaven. The concept can be found in the Abrahamic religions such as Islam, Judaism and Christianity; 

 

 

Abrahamic religions[edit]

Judaism and Christianity[edit]

The universe is made of seven heavens (Shamayim)^[9]

1. Vilon (וילון), Also see (Isa 40:22)
2. Raki'a (רקיע), Also see (Gen 1:17)
3. Shehaqim (שחקים), See (Ps 78:23, Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7)
4. Zebul (זבול), See (Isa 63:15, KJV)
5. Ma'on (מעון), See (Deut 26:15)
6. Machon (מכון), See (1 Kings 8:39, Deut 28:12)
7. Araboth (ערבות), The seventh Heaven where ofanim, the seraphim, and the hayyoth and the throne of the Lord are located.

The Jewish Merkavah and Hekhalot literature was devoted to discussing the details of these heavens, sometimes in connection with traditions relating to Enoch, such as the Third Book of Enoch.^[10]

 

In the second century, Irenaeus also knows seven heavens (see his Demonstration of Apostolic Preaching 9; cf. Against Heresies 1.5.2).

Edited May 13, 2019 by childoftheking