2 Corintians Chapter 3

[BlindSeeker]

Phil. 3:1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,

[JohnS]

n order to understand "righteous love" a distinction must be made between our natural humanistic "love" and God's required "righteous love." Humanistic love (considering man's fallen nature) is whimsical and unstable.  It fluctuates with the changing of emotions and will often cease without reason.  

William,

 You absolutely massacre every precept by overcomplicating things. No, it's not our natural humanistic love ...the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)Just as human nature is put to the test in the actual circumstances of life, so the love of God in us is put to the test. Keep yourselves in the love of God,says Jude, that is keep your soul open not only to the fact that God loves you, but that He is in you, in you sufficiently to manifest His perfect love in every condition in which you find yourself as you rely upon Him.

Again, I clearly stated those who come to Christ must "surrender" to Him? Is this not also a contingency for ones salvation?  What says the scriptures?  What said Jesus Himself?

     Luke 14:25  And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,

     26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

     27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be My disciple.

     28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

     29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

     30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

     31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

     32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

     33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple.

      A man may be magnificently saved and appallingly backward in development, or he may be a maturely developed saint, like the Apostle Paul; but neither is more than saved by God's grace. Pharisaic holiness means that my eyes are set on my own whiteness.

       

We are not sent to specialize in doctrine, but to lift up Jesus, and He will do the work of saving and sanctifying souls. When we become doctrine-mongers God's power is not known, only the passionateness of an individual appeal. Oswald Chambers

When Paul stated, "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father," the fear in question was the fear of death.  We have caused to hope because we have escaped the fear of death's sting because we have been forgiven and quickened.

William, that makes no sense at all. If you have been forgiven and no longer fear death, then the only thing left to fear is that God will change His mind. That's what all this is about...lack of security and lack of security comes from thinking that it is what you do that saves you. The next verse says The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God and if children, then heirs - heirs of God and joint heirs of Christ if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

If indeed we suffer with Him....

But if Himself He come to thee, and stand

Beside thee, gazing down on thee with eyes

That smile, and suffer; that will smite thy heart,

With their own pity, to a passionate peace;

And reach to thee Himself the Holy Cup

(With all its wreathen stems of passion-flowers

And quivering sparkles of ruby stars),

Pallid and royal, saying,"Drink with Me";

Wilt thou refuse? Nay, not for paradise!

---The pale brow will compel thee, the pure hands

Will minister unto thee; thou shalt take

Of that communion through the solemn depths

Of the dark waters of thine agony,

With heart that praises Him, that yearns to Him

The closer through that hour. Hold fast His hand,

Though the nails pierce thine too! take only care

Lest one drop of the sacramental wine

Be spilled, of that which ever shall unite

Thee, soul and body to thy living Lord!

For the glory and passion of this midnight

     I praise Thy name, I give Thee thanks.

          O Christ!

Thou that hast neither failed me nor forsaken,

     Through these hard hours with victory

           Overpriced;

Now that I too of Thy passion have partaken,

      For the world's sake called, elected, sacrificed.

Thou wast alone through Thy redemption-vigil,

      Thy friends had fled;

The angel at the garden from Thee parted,

       And solitude instead

More than the scourge, or cross, O tender-hearted,

       Under the crown of thorns bowed down

            Thy head.

But I, amid the torture, and the taunting,

       I have had Thee!

Thy hand was holding my hand fast and faster,

       Thy voice was close to me

And glorious eyes said,"Follow Me, Thy Master,

       Smile as I smile thy faithfulness to see."

                                              H.E. Hamilton King        

       

I see now why you think Paul had to be talking about his pre-conversion self in Romans 7. It's the only way your creed works. How could someone be so close to Jesus and think themselves anything but wretched. Note Job in the presence of God, Behold, I am vile (Job 40:4) and Isaiah:Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The Lord of Hosts.(Isaiah 6:5) John fell at His feet as dead in Revelations. John the Baptist said he wasn't worthy to unlatch His sandal. None of these men thought they were righteous.

Cool, it's late. Hope your family is well.

[BlindSeeker]

William,

[wordsower]

I too view ceremonial circumcision as a mutilation  - but accept circumcision done to remedy a medically and surgically curable condition.

Hu?

Yes, I have black hair, but they tell me my roots are blonde, can you tell me what that has to do with anything?

I don't think John has any intention of being disrespectful, I know I don't and you have said the same to me, it is very hard to convey a personality on a typed screen.  Personally, I consider it very condescending when you say how it saddens you that I believe the way I do, but I know you are being genuine and not condescending.  I have JOY JOY JOY, I've never been closer to God or happier, or been able to reach more people for the gospel in my life, so don't be sad about me!  I KNOW that I KNOW that I KNOW what I heard from God, not once, but about 5 times and my spirit bears witness that I am a child of God.  I do not think it is a salvation issue and so I am not sad for you in that respect, I just think it would be a BIG LOAD off if you realized that we can't solve anything by a change in behavior, we have to have a change of heart and that or rather, Jesus will change our behavior.

[JohnS]

Perhaps it is you JohnS who neglects things and reduce them to simplistic believe-ism.

Bingo! Thank you, William, that's where I want to be. Come as a child, simply believing in Jesus to sustain, to complete the good work He has begun. His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Just how then do you propose we should prove all things? Oh yeah . . . there would be nothing to prove or disprove.

Like it or not, we can't open anyone's eyes, only God gives the increase. Look at 1 Corinthians 3. What does the carnal Christian say? "I am of Paul" and "I am of Apollos". Is this not the same thing as "I am a sabbatarian" and "I am oneness"? Are you not creating divisions? And what does Paul say? And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Pretty simplistic, huh? Brother, I have a collection of commentaries and concordances that might  rival your own, but that doesn't save me.

 

   John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

     15:9  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

     10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Perhaps that is how we keep ourselves in God's love . . . I hope I didn't overly complicate that . . .or massacre it as well . . . sigh . . .  

And what were the commandments? Love God and love your neighbor. And how is that accomplished? By the love of God that was poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to us. Wow...doesn't leave anything for us to take credit for, does it?

Yes, a man may be appalling when he comes to the Lord . . . but he will only stay that way if he frustrates the grace given to change him.

By the way, are you calling me a pharisee as well ? Can't you speak directly?

Is the man still saved? Are your eyes set on your own whiteness?

Perhaps you would like to negate those words of Paul as well.  Is he trying to make Timothy a "doctrine-monger?"  It is false doctrine contrary to the precepts of God that one needs to be aware of,  not line upon line, precept upon precept sound doctrine.  Or was God over complicating it that way?

Quote (JohnS @ May 04 2003,1:25 am)

When we become doctrine-mongers God's power is not known, only the passionateness of an individual appeal. Oswald Chambers . . .

Is Oswald Chambers an apostle?  Should his words be given the same credence as Paul's? By the way . . . did you just call me a "doctrine-monger?"  Like I said, you sadden me.

Where we blunder is in trying to expound the Cross doctrinally while refusing to do what Jesus told us to do, viz., lift Him up. "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself"(John 12:32 RV).

Belief is the abandonment of all claim to merit. That is why it is so difficult to believe.   Oswald Chambers

Likewise I see why you discard all of God's commandments, it's the only way your creed work.

I would rather believe God's grace can enable me to walk righteously in the light of His word - then accept that it is powerless to change me from a vile creature.

Where exactly did I say to discard God's commandments? The whole point is that it's not you, it's Christ in you. The old man died, remember? It's Christ in you. It's His righteousness.

     Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Paul knew it wasn't himself. In 1 Corinthians 3:5, he and Apollos were diakonos...table-waiters. In 4:1, huperetes... under-oarsmen, the lowest level of rowers on a Roman ship.

[BlindSeeker]

Hu?

Yes, I have black hair, but they tell me my roots are blonde, can you tell me what that has to do with anything?

Since you posted from Philippians without any comments,

I figured you were addressing circumcision as something I would deem necessary.  I have no idea why you posted it then.

[wordsower]

Blindseeker,

I was thinking you wouldn't deem in necessary--at least for salvation and that was the point, the passage is really really clear to me, especially:

7But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

We are of the circumcision of the heart

You can give someone a list of laws and they may keep them if they are afraid of the consequence of death but if they don't love anybody, what good is it?

On the other hand, if they love everybody like Christ loved us, what do they need a law for?

[BlindSeeker]

Like it or not, we can't open anyone's eyes, only God gives the increase. Look at 1 Corinthians 3. . . .

Yes, God gives the increase.

[JohnS]

We do not lift Jesus up

I do!  

[BlindSeeker]

We do not lift Jesus up

I do!