Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

What Paul says in verse 6 can be interpreted in two ways so that both statements are equally true. Although I know Paul had one intended meaning, I cannot be certain which of the two is the one he intended.

The first is that the Thessalonians now know what is keeping the Antichrist from being revealed until it is the Antichrist’s time. The second is that the Thessalonians now (henceforth) know (because Paul just told them in verse 3) what is preventing the revelation of Christ (the day of Christ), the falling away and the revelation of the man of sin must come first. Both statements are true, but I cannot be certain which Paul meant. It is difficult to identify the subject of the pronouns that Paul uses. There is also something or someone preventing both Christ’s day from being at hand and the revelation of the Beast. The use of “what” also points towards it referring to Christ. Much writing could easily be devoted to these two interpretations, but I will not do that here. The important thing is to recognize that both statements are true, whichever Paul meant.

2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 

In verse 7 the one withholding is a he, not a what. It should be noted that the same Greek word is used for “withholdeth”, “letteth”, and “let”. Each expresses the idea of hindering or restraining. It should also be noted that the word translated “the way” is the Greek word “mesos” which means middle. Additionally, we should consider the unusual translation of “ginomai” in this text. Of the 672 uses of the word in the NT, only once, here in this text, is it translated “be taken”. What does all this mean? It means that we must with great care be diligent to not err concerning who this restrainer of the mystery of iniquity is. Who is presently restraining Satan from giving power unto the man of sin?

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 

The restrainer is Michael the archangel that Daniel said would stand up (stand aside) after which would be a time of unparalleled trouble. This unparalleled trouble is that same period of persecution that Jesus called great tribulation.

...

Glory be to Jesus

In my opinion, you have gone off the deep end here. Are both statements true? I don't think so.  We must leave all these verse in their context! Paul introduces the man of sin in verse 3 at the end of the verse:

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [the day of the Lord] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition [the man of sin introduced here]

⁴ Who [the man of sin] opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he [the man of sin] as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself [the man of sin] that he [the man of sin] is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I [Paul] told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth [or is restraining, holding back] that he [in context can only be the man of sin] might be revealed in his [the man of sin] time. [The man of sin will be revealed when he enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews. In Context this cannot be referring to anyone else BUT the man of sin.]

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work [the spirit of antichrist was already at work]: only he [I take this to mean the Holy Spirit working through the church: the theme of the passage is the gathering of the CHURCH, not anything to do with an arc angel.] who now letteth [restrains the man of sin] will let [continue to restrain] , until he be taken out of the way [or "becomes out of the midst:" either translation fits the church being taken to heaven].

 I think it is a HUGE stretch to interject Michael into this text. Is there a hint anywhere in the bible that Michael is "taken out of the way?" There IS A TEXT that tells us the church will be taken out of the way. And the rapture of the church is the very THEME of this passage.

I can only see verse six with ONE meaning: Paul just told them who was the restrainer, but did it in a way which they might miss: so he wrote "now you know" so they would dig deeper. I think you will find, when you arrive in heaven, that Michael is NOT the restrainer. You have pulled him "out of a hat" so to speak.  

Again I must remind you, there is only ONE THING that must come first. NOT two things, not three things: Only ONE THING: the apostasia must come first. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

The revelation of the Beast in the Temple takes place in the middle of the week.

Michael stands aside in the middle of the week. Satan is cast out of heaven by Michael in the middle of the week. The middle is very significant.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 

Dan 12:7b  … it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 

Michael is specially equipped to deal with Satan.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 

Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 

Dan 10:13  But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 

When Michael casts Satan to the earth in the middle of the week (Rev 12) the Antichrist shall be revealed. His end is to be consumed in the brightness of Christ’s presence.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 

Satan gives the Beast his power and lying wonders are performed by the False Prophet. Those who choose not the love of the truth are deceived and perish.

2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 

2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 

Because they didn’t love, but instead rejected the truth, the earth dwellers will be convinced by the miracles performed by the False Prophet and worship the Beast, receiving his mark and thereby be eternally damned. God gives those, who refuse the truth and love their sins, a lie that they might be damned.

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 

2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

Glory be to Jesus

No, Michael does NOT "stand aside! He goes to war with Satan! That is a terrible translation that does not in any way fit the context.  Revelation shows us that Rev. 12:1 is the midpoint of the week. It is where Michael goes to war. That is certainly NOT "standing aside."  I agree, the midpoint of the week is VERY important. John spends chapters 11-14 on the midpoint events!

Daniel 12:2 is NOT in the middle of the week.

Daniel 12:7 gives us God's purpose of the 70th week: it is to completely shatter the power of Israel. Today they trust in their IDF.

Daniel 9:27 covers the entire 70th week in one verse. Revelation covers that one week in 9 chapters!

I disagree: I think the man of sin will be revealed the very moment he says he is God.  He is certainly revealed at that time to those that flee!

And then shall that Wicked be revealed  WHEN is then? When the one restraining is taken out of the way: the rapture. The man of sin will never be revealed while the church in here.

You and I are just not going to agree on much here.

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, Cletus said:

you said "Which means they can repent, but chose not to it would seem."  and seem so it is... which means the mercy seat is still available.  therefore the church has not been caught up.  yet.  simple math. 

who told you the seals are called the lambs wrath?  who?  certainly not the Word of God.  Nowhere, i repeat, nowhere does the bible say this however it refers to the bowls/vials as Gods wrath...

Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

again, go back and read what i wrote.  look up those passages, and words. 

there is not one scripture that refers to the seals as Gods wrath.  or is there?  can you provide one?  i looked, and came up empty handed.  if you cant provide even one then you are speaking a teaching of man, and does not agree with scripture.   until you can do this, i see no reason to go on with the rest of what you wrote because i have already shown how pre trib logic fails.  Gods word does not contradict itself.  and what you have said does not line up with scripture, so far.  i highly doubt the rest will either.  you had one small part right but even in that there was misunderstanding... if they could repent the door isnt shut yet... so then, the groom didnt come yet. 

what i have said in every single post of mine in this thread was not taught to me by a man. 

edit:  no trickery involved. 

"you said "Which means they can repent, but chose not to it would seem."  and seem so it is... which means the mercy seat is still available.  therefore the church has not been caught up.  yet.  simple math. "  Please, enlighten us on your thought process here. I don't agree, not can is see any relationship to the mercy seat and what is happening.  The church caught up took full advantage of the mercy seat when they believed in Jesus and were translated from the world into the Kingdom of God. 

Rev. 15:1 does NOT mean that is the start of God's wrath! It only means what is says: that each vial is filled with His wrath. 

I agree with you here: the seals are NOT God's wrath! Good job! Revelation Man missed it for sure. God is not killing His martyrs through is wrath - He is NOT ANGRY with the martyrs. The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel: God is not angry with the church either! 

Now we disagree: it is impossible for you to show how pretrib logic fails, for GOD HIMSELF is pretrib. 

Please, pick one scripture to "prove" pretrib as false and let's work on it verse by verse. I don't think you have such a verse.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

At the root of this remains the 70th week itself. I know all pre-millennialists have made the same assumption that the entire 70th week remains unfulfilled - (and some are even suggesting MORE than 7 years?). 

I have been asking this for weeks and no one has responded. Why are you so afraid?

Please show the proof for the end of the 69th week. If you say it is the baptism (thank you for agreeing with me), then answer why the ministry and death of the Messiah are not necessary to be part of the 70 weeks when it specifically mandated a "set" or "determined" amount of time (70 weeks) for the Jewish people and the city of Jerusalem to accomplish 6 very specific things within the 70 weeks time frame. 

DAniel 9

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks [this is the END of the 7 weeks and 62 weeks [of years]) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come [this is after the 69 weeks but before the 70th] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [this happened in 70 AD, AFTER the 69 but BEFORE the 70th.]

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:... [This is the 70th week - still future.]

[iamlamad]

41 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

If we can look into scripture for the first use (Law of Primacy) of the word "Apostasy", we find it in the Old Testament,  in Jer 2:19, and Josh 22:22. Every time it means apostasy or rebellion in a religious or political sense.....never used as a spatial or physical sense.

Even the pre-tribulationist scholar Paul D Feinburg, who wrote the argument FOR the pre-tribulation view in the first edition of "Three views of the Rapture" admits, and quotes....

"If one searches for the uses of the noun 'apostasy' in the 355  occurrences over the 300 years period between the second century BC and the first century AD, one will not find a single instance where this word refers to a physical departure"

If Thomas Ice had used the Greek, (which he doesn't appeal to) he would have found this: (by the way, this is the same Greek Dictionary that you appealed to in an earlier response)

Greek Bible Lexicon

Dictionary Search Results

1 - 9 of 9 results for apostasy    Go Back 

---

 

1.G0646 apostasia apostaseeah feminine of the same as G0647 n f
a falling away defection apostasy Feminine of the same as G0647 defection from truth properly the state apostasy falling away forsake

2.G1042 gabbatha gabbathah of Aramaic origin H1355 n pr loc
...avement of stones In Ahazs case his act was the conclusive token of his abject apostasy So here of Pilate coming down to the apostate Jews In the former case it was a Jewish ruler dominated by a Gentile idolater in the latter a Gentile idol...

3.G2692 katastrophe katastrofay from G2690 n f
...onsecration From G2690 an overturn catastrophe that is demolition figuratively apostasyoverthrow subverting

4.G3038 lithostrotos lithostrotos from G3037 and a derivative of G4766 adj
...ones In Ahazs case his act was the conclusive token of his surrender to abject apostasy So here of Pilate coming down to the level of the apostate Jews In the former case it was a Jewish ruler dominated by a Gentile idolater in the latter a...

5.G4348 proskomma proskommah from G4350 n n
...s by which is caused to sin From G4350 a stub that is figuratively occasion of apostasy offence stumblingblock stumblingstone

6.G4566 Satan satan of Hebrew origin H7854 n pr m
...e prince of evil spirits the inveterate adversary of God and Christ he incites apostasy from God and to sin circumventing men by his wiles the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control by his demons he is able to take possession...

7.G4567 Satanas satanas of Aramaic origin corresponding to H4566 with the definite affix n pr m
...e prince of evil spirits the inveterate adversary of God and Christ he incites apostasy from God and to sin circumventing men by his wiles the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control by his demons he is able to take possession...

8.G4624 skandalizo skandalidzo scandalize from G4625 v
...5 to entrap that is trip up figuratively stumble transitively or entice to sin apostasy or displeasure make to offend

9.G5289 hupostole hoopostolay from G5288 n f
...one stealthily retreating From G5288 shrinkage timidity that is by implication apostasy draw back

You are answering the wrong question: the question is, CAN this word mean a spatial departing?

Transliteration apostasia  Pronunciation  ä-po-stä-sē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech:  feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Feminine of the same as ἀποστάσιον (G647)

 

G647

apostasion  Pronunciation  ä-po-stä'-sē-on (Key) 

Part of Speech  neuter noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of ἀφίστημι (G868)

(G868)

Now we get into the compound word: APO and STASIA

 

aphistēmi  Pronunciation  ä-fē'-stā-mē (Key)  

Part of Speech  verb

Root Word (Etymology)

From ἀπό (G575) and ἵστημι (G2476)

 

G575

apo

Pronunciation   ä-po' (Key)  

Part of Speech  preposition

Root Word (Etymology)

A primary particle

 

So what does APO mean? 

of separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

2. of separation of a part from the whole

   1. where of a whole some part is taken

 

Verses using APO

Mar 7:4 - And when they come from ^G575 the market...    (Spatial movement)

Act 24:18 - Whereupon certain Jews from ^G575 Asia           (Spatial movement)

It should be very easy to see that the first word that makes up the compound word "apo-stasia" includes the meaning of a spatial movement: a PART of a while is removed to another location.

 

Now, how about the OTHER part of this compound word?

histēmi  (G2476)

Pronunciation  hē'-stā-mē (Key) 

Part of Speech  verb

Root Word (Etymology)

A prolonged form of a primary stao {stah'-o} (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses)

stand (116x)  stand still (4x)

to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set

1. to bid to stand by, [set up]

 

1. to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm

   1. of the foundation of a building

If we put these two meanings together, APO and Stasia, what then could the meaning be?

Consider the rapture of the church: the church "taken out of the way."

Does it fit a PART of a while removed from the whole - while the rest of the whole is left standing?

The rapture will take place instantly: so fast the rest of the world will seem to be still - not moving.

By the way, we get our "stationary" as in a stationary engine (not moving) from this Greek word.

This may not be the normal use of this compound word - but the truth is, it certainly COULD be used as this meaning.  I think this is why Paul wrote, "and NOW YOU KNOW..." because he used this word in an unusual way. 

Edited February 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:

hello sir,

You do agree that there is "GAP" in the 70 weeks per your posts. I agree that there is a gap also, my point is that this gap is in the middle of the 70th week while you (and almost everyone else) say it is when the 69th week ends. I have shown with all Biblically (and historically) accurate calculations included how the 69th week ended at the baptism. The gap "after the cross" is crucial because the ministry and the cross are NECESSARY to be included as part of the 70 weeks prophecy. I say this because of the specific purposes outlined in Dan.9 - all of which the 70 weeks is the "determined" time for those purposes to be fulfilled. The ministry and cross are the most important and vital part of the prophecy. The prophecy is for the Jews (and city of Jerusalem) to fulfill. 

The covenant mentioned in the 70th week is THE covenant between Israel and God. It does NOT say, treaty or league, or agreement which are all OT words used for 'peace treaties between nations'. 

The "confirmation/ or strenghtening" of this covenant occurs when Jesus is baptized, preaches for a specific number of "days" as outlined in Daniel, and finally is cut-off or killed as the FINAL and ONLY sacrifice that God will accept from then on. Any further temple sacrifices would be considered an ABOMINATION. And for continued abominations (temple sacrifices), the temple itself is eventually destroyed.

By making all this about the A/C means that only the first few words of vs 26 refer to Jesus/the Messiah while everything else refers to the A/C. The ONLY mention of Jesus is that he comes at the end of the 69th week and that He is killed "but not for himself". The city and sanctuary being destroyed - then MUST have occurred in 70ad, and the desolations have continued. Yes, Israel has been restored as a nation, but NOT the temple. So you therefore must agree that the "people of the prince" are the Romans - thank you for confirming that by your own statements, because the 70th week (vs 27) has not yet begun on your chart.

Again, it is completely illogical to assume that the A/C would stop sacrifices in a rebuilt temple knowing that the temple and any activity within it would be considered an Abomination to God all by themselves. 

I have read it over and over...

MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ IT AGAIN - this time with your eyes OPEN!

Please tell us: do you see the trumpet judgments as history, or future?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Concerning the day of Christ (the Lord) and the rapture, it really isn't that hard. Jesus told His disciples that He would come again and receive them unto Himself. Paul calls this coming again the parousia in 1Thes 4:15. Jesus is asked by His disciples "what shall be the sign of thy parousia"? Jesus tells them of the condition of the world and the church (His followers) prior to His parousia. He tells them of the cosmic sign which will indicate that their redemption is nigh.

...

Why would you even imagine Jesus, talking to His Jewish followers and answering their question about the end of THEIR age  - would have anything to do with the end of the GENTILE church age? (I could answer, "never the twain shall meet."   Daniel was clear that the entire 70 weeks was for HIS people. Therefore it has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today.  The truth is, Jesus answer to them was indeed about the end of THEIR age, proven by His mention of the abomination and days of GT.  He was not talking about the end of the church age. It will end before THEIR time of the 70th week will start. You are trying to compare oranges with bananas: it won't work.  No wonder we don't agree on much. 

The cosmic signs given in Matthew 24 are the sign of His coming - post trib as shown in Rev. 19. This sign is DIFFERENT that the 6th seal sign and will come over 7 years later.

Edited February 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

The future coming (parousia, which means arrival and continuing presence) of Christ only happens once. It is made up of His arrival and all that follows, even His destruction of the Antichrist at Armageddon which takes place much later in the day of the Lord. Revelation 19 is not describing Christ's arrival, His appearing gloriously in the clouds with the mighty Angels for every eye to see (Rev 1:7), it is describing His victory over the Beast and the nations which follow him.

I disagree - and so do untold millions of believers in the world today. There is ample evidence that He will come pretrib FOR His saints, take us back to heaven, and then come 7 plus years later WITH His saints to the battle of Armageddon. I think you will find it extremely difficult to prove a continual presense in Paul's classic rapture verses. I will agree, when He comes as shown in Rev. 19. He will STAY - for the 1000 year reign.

I can't align His coming where "every eye will see Him" when He is hidden in a cloud!  It shows us TWO more comings. 

We are certainly not going to agree on this.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

The church always taught one future coming (parousia) as witnessed by Paul in Heb 9:28 and elsewhere. The idea of two future parousias is not only foreign to Scripture, it is practically non-existent in church history prior to JND.  No wonder you are so confused, Jesus didn't say I'm going to come again and again.

The parousia will end the unprecedented persecution of the saints. But it appears that most of the Saints will have been martyred by then.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

...

Glory be to the Lamb

I disagree. There is proof that some in the first century taught a pretrib rapture. 

I disagree - and so do millions of others: TWO comings are what is written! It is very difficult to force all scriptures into ONE coming: it simply does not work. For example: every eye sees Him and He is hidden in a cloud!  For example, a sign of a blood moon compared to a dark moon: the sun and moon both dark - meaning total darkness. The moon will be INVISIBLE: there are TWO signs of the end, over 7 years apart.  One coming is before His wrath, as shown in 1 Thes. 5. One coming is after the entire 70th week! These cannot be forces to fit together.  I know, you will try...and fail.  

Again a jab. Why do you imagine I am confused? Just because I will not agree with you? 

Again you are dead WRONG! His coming as seen in Rev 19 is AFTER the days of tribulation. How then can his coming end the persecution? You missed it! The truth is, the vials of His wrath is what END the days of GT. They render the Beast and His armies helpless. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

...

Jesus comes in the second half of the week to end the great tribulation by rescuing those of us who are alive and remain after which He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers.

Glory be to the Lamb

How can you say Jesus comes in the second half of the week when Revelation CLEARLY shows His coming after the 70th week has ended? 

Sorry, but your theories simply do not follow the scriptures correctly understood. 

"

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Please tell me you don't or won't put these days of "tribulation" before the 6th seal!  That theory is absurd! Jesus told us the days of GT will start after the midpoint (Just so you know, that midpoint is in chapter 11.)

I have a novel idea: why don't you just follow John? The week ends at the 7th vial. The events of chapters 17 and 18 take place. Then the marriage and supper take place. Then, finally, Jesus comes when every eye will see Him. This theory follows Revelation EXACTLY.  Your theory DESTROYS Revelation, forcing a total rewrite - rearranging to fit a false doctrine.

Again, a novel idea: why not form your theory using Revelation AS WRITTEN? Then you would be in agreement with the scriptures!