Romans VIII Contrast

[WordSword]

The Eighth Chapter of Romans describes the identification of the two types of humanity: those who walk “after the flesh”; and those who walk “after the Spirit” (v 1). I think this discussion should begin with what Paul may have intended to mean by “walk after.” One might interpret this to relate to how one lives and another, how one desires to live, that is, we can seek to live according to the Spirit of God, but desire and do are not the same because the former leads to the latter.

Initially all reborn (since the days of the Apostles) are at the “babe in Christ” (1Cor 3:1) point of maturity and begin to grow into “Christ’s image” by manifesting the desire for “the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby” (1Pe 2:2). Though the primary objective of redemption in the Lord Jesus is fully complete (salvation does not admit in degrees) at rebirth, “growing up into Him in all things” (Eph 4:15) is God’s work of “conformation” (Rom 8:29; 2Co 3:18) for the remnant of our earthly lives.

One who is reborn will soon become aware of an ominous presence “to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phl 2:13). Scripture teaches the reality of this presence (new nature or new man) is genuine in the fact that this overwhelming desire to please God, though repeatedly interrupted within believers, ever remains with them (Mat 24:13; Heb 10:38). Therefore, from rebirth to our rest or rapture, believers are continually manifesting by their lives a walk and desire after the Spirit.

Those who are unregenerate cannot “walk after the Spirit,” nor can those regenerated “walk after the flesh.” The intention of the word “walk” is in reference to that which one seeks above all things. Though there will be times of sin in the lives of the believers due to their indwelling of old man, their overall desire is to please God. This defines walking after the Spirit, which will be manifested in the lifestyles of the saints.

The Lord Jesus proclaimed that “a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit” (Luke 6:43). He also indicated “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt (Mat 12:33). James reiterated this when he wrote that “Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter . . . . So can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh (3:11, 12).

Seeking to live according to the sin nature (flesh) reveals domination of the old man and therefore manifests one who has not been redeemed. Being free from the “reign” and dominion” of sin (Rom 6:12, 14) to me means the old man can no longer cause the believer to "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26), or intentionally “serve sin” (Rom 7:25).

The will and desire of the saints to please God supersedes the desires of the old man in them, for God considers them being after the Spirit, as they “are not after the flesh” (Rom 8:9). No believer can live after the flesh and after the Spirit.

I think most of the confusion here lies with the deceptiveness of imitation. One can appear to be after the Spirit, but cannot continue to do so permanently if not reborn! As it is known, “Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light,” and that which false professors do will eventually be made manifest “according to their works” (2Co 11:14, 15).

If those reborn can “be carnally minded,” they abide in “death,” which not only conflicts with “to be spiritually minded is life” (8:6, 13), but also with the Lord’s declaration of “whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die” (Jhn 11:26).

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by WordSword

[simplejeff]

King David,  declared by Yahweh to be "a man after God's Own Heart" (not many of those today, eh?) ,

Chosen by Yahweh and anointed to be King,

also 'fell' into sin "after the flesh" (very many of those today) ,  and was forgiven entirely (though suffered severe consequences)....

Balaam told the enemy army leader how to get Israel cursed by God.  

The same tactic has been used for thousands of years, and still works, to get Christians cursed, or fallen into sin.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, WordSword said:

The Eighth Chapter of Romans

Your title has a unit missing, VII is 7th, should be VIII if we are discussing Romans 8. You may have access to the title panel in your "edit" option, WordSword, in which case you can correct this. (I'm into details.) 

[WordSword]

4 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Your title has a unit missing, VII is 7th, should be VIII if we are discussing Romans 8. You may have access to the title panel in your "edit" option, WordSword, in which case you can correct this. (I'm into details.) 

Much Thanks M37!

[Michael37]

23 minutes ago, WordSword said:

Much Thanks M37!

My pleasure, I enjoyed your OP and so went looking through various translations of the initial verse. Lo and behold a few of them omit the words, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." ASV, ESV, ISV, & RV are guilty of this, but in summary the main point is present in this translation below.

Rom 8:1 (ISV) Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus.

Still, I was raised on the premise that the world, the flesh, and the devil must be renounced in order to live for Christ, so I am at home with the KJV and the antiquated antithesis flesh versus Spirit in the full sentence. Good post, WordSword.

[Tzephanyahu]

7 hours ago, simplejeff said:

King David,  declared by Yahweh to be "a man after God's Own Heart" (not many of those today, eh?) ,

Chosen by Yahweh and anointed to be King,

also 'fell' into sin "after the flesh" (very many of those today) ,  and was forgiven entirely (though suffered severe consequences)....

Balaam told the enemy army leader how to get Israel cursed by God.  

The same tactic has been used for thousands of years, and still works, to get Christians cursed, or fallen into sin.

Shalom simplejeff & WordSword

I have been considering this matter recently actually. There is a subtle glimmer of encouragment in this incident with David...

Yahweh's Spirit was upon David, yet he still managed to sin. Yes, things fell apart for him from that day onwards because of it but he still had Yahweh's anointing. 

The encouragement for us, as Spirit filled believers, is that we're still capable of mistakes. Yet that doesn't mean the Spirit has never been with us. Rather, that we have fallen for a moment to the flesh. But the Spirit will return to fill us afresh after we change our ways a seek Him again. I think that's important as some believers think in black and white and say "if you can sin then God's Spirit cannot be in you". That's unrealistic. 

The flesh can truly be our worst enemy! It knows exactly how to reason with us logically to justify any sin that comes our way. If you want to fight it with wisdom, it will be wise back. If you want to fight it with scripture, it will fight back with doubt...

The best way to fight the flesh is to not even get into debate with it - but to take the thought or temptation captive immediately and respond like a judge, saying "Overruled!" 

Love & Shalom 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Tzephanyahu

[WordSword]

9 hours ago, Michael37 said:

My pleasure, I enjoyed your OP and so went looking through various translations of the initial verse. Lo and behold a few of them omit the words, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." ASV, ESV, ISV, & RV are guilty of this, but in summary the main point is present in this translation below.

Hi, and appreciate your reply! Your comment here has much more significance than most know, and it's my belief that it should be common knowledge. Nearly all the modern translations do not retain what most of extant copies have available. They utilize what's known as the Minority Text, which contains numerous rejected writings by the early scribes when compiling a codex. They are the oldest copies known but are the fewest because the copiers found they did not contain enough of the majority of existing copies, and thus the copies did not wear out from being used, hence their early dating. I believe the preferred translations for most Bible commentators are those deriving within the Majority Text, which are those from most of extant copies.

A couple examples of a Minority codex translation are that they retain the errant reading in 2Sam 21:19. A copier (scribe) somehow forgot to include the phrase "the brother of" and thus the reading renders the error that Elhanan killed Goliath, and not David, as confirmed by 1Chron 20:5, which reiterates the correct account (NIV recently changed this but still uses the inferior Text). The other problem with the Minority Text of course is the most significant, in that they omit many of the writings contained within the Majority Text. A couple prominent examples (among hundreds of other omissions) are the Trinity passage in 1Jhn 5:7 (they claim was added in the Majority Text); and often passages that attempt to delete the deity of Christ, like His omnipresence in John 3:13--"even the Son of Man which is in heaven" is omitted.

If you're interested in this subject (which all believers should be) the best book I've found so far is "Which Bible" by David Otis Fuller, D.D.

Blessings to your Family!

Edited February 20, 2019 by WordSword

[WordSword]

10 hours ago, simplejeff said:

King David,  declared by Yahweh to be "a man after God's Own Heart" (not many of those today, eh?) ,

Chosen by Yahweh and anointed to be King,

also 'fell' into sin "after the flesh" (very many of those today) ,  and was forgiven entirely (though suffered severe consequences)....

Balaam told the enemy army leader how to get Israel cursed by God.  

The same tactic has been used for thousands of years, and still works, to get Christians cursed, or fallen into sin.

Hi and appreciate your input! Yes, God began using many of those whom He chose after learning from their sin!

Blessings!

[simplejeff]

Moses and Samson and King David and others in the Bible sinned long after Yahweh chose them, called them, and directed ('used') them.

Some repented.  Some did not repent.

[simplejeff]

On 2/20/2019 at 4:41 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

The flesh can truly be our worst enemy! It knows exactly how to reason with us logically to justify any sin that comes our way. If you want to fight it with wisdom, it will be wise back. If you want to fight it with scripture, it will fight back with doubt...

The best way to fight the flesh is to not even get into debate with it - but to take the thought or temptation captive immediately and respond like a judge, saying "Overruled!"  

 

Not just our own flesh.    As seen in Corinthians,  those dominated by the flesh cannot comprehend things of the spirit.  They do things because of the flesh, the natural mind, the world's way(s).

Best not to debate with it, as you posted, yes.  Debate doesn't educate the flesh, it just comes back with more stuff not edifying anyone.