What Happens When you Die?

[Jostler]

1 hour ago, BeauJangles said:

Thank you. 

there are too many of those for me to even consider ripping out  the pages they're on to come to an understanding that we don't have a spirit  

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, JohnD said:

Ecclesiastes 12 (AV)
1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Shalom, JohnD.

No argument against your quote of Scripture; HOWEVER, you should be careful to note that there is NOTHING in the verse you highlighted that REQUIRES personhood in this "spirit"; it is an IMPERSONAL "wind" of breath that returns to God who gave it, suggesting that the air of one's breath is recycled back into the winds of the atmosphere, as is the energy it took for that person to breathe.

Don't read into the Scriptures more than was written. To do so ADDS to God's Word, which is a dangerous activity at best!

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, Jostler said:

one thing that has been overlooked entirely is the fact there are two words in the Hebrew translated as spirit  or breath.   The revelation of how we're constructed that comes when both are taken into account is very enlightening...and very important.

In this account that "breath of life" is neshama, not ruach. 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5397&t=NKJV

...

That's not a complete list....but it's a start for anyone that wants to get with Him and dig deeper.  That's part of a more  in depth study I'm working  on for another thread...not quite complete yet but already quite eye-opening.

Shalom, Jostler.

That's what I was talking about. The word in Genesis 2:7 is "nishmat," a form of this "n'shaamaah" you've brought up, the "construct state" of the word, because that's how a possessive (translating to the two words with "of" in the middle) is made in Hebrew. The phrase is "nishmat chaayim," "puffs of-lives," and yes, you're right; these words are in the plural. It's no real mystery because animals and birds and even some sea-going mammals all possessed this "nishmat chaayim." (It's not really about "Eve" or Chavah at this point in time.)

21 hours ago, Jostler said:

note:  verses are quoted from the NKJV

Right now, I'm trying to hunt down evidence for a sneaking suspicion I got about the relationship between "pneuma" and "zoe" in the Greek.   I'm thinking  it _may_ be the NT Greek equivalent relationship between "ruach" and "neshama" in the OT if anyone wants to check with me

i do need to find a stopping point for this study....lol...it's late already 

There's no real connection between "zooee," spelled "zeta-omega-eta," and "n'shaamaah." It's really more the Hebrew word "chaayim" ("lives") that would have been translated as "zooee" (or one of its forms) in Greek. 

The Hebrew word "ruwach" means a powerful "wind," and by analogy, a person "blowing" like a wind, while the word "n'shaamaah" refers to a "puff" of air, as in "panting" or "gasping."

God was merely performing the first instance of "CPR," although technically it was NOT "Cardio-Pulmonary RE-suscitation," as Adam had never been alive before this event.

[Retrobyter]

(No content.)

I guess I didn't lose the post after all.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Retrobyter

[JohnD]

On 6/23/2019 at 10:15 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JohnD.

No argument against your quote of Scripture; HOWEVER, you should be careful to note that there is NOTHING in the verse you highlighted that REQUIRES personhood in this "spirit"; it is an IMPERSONAL "wind" of breath that returns to God who gave it, suggesting that the air of one's breath is recycled back into the winds of the atmosphere, as is the energy it took for that person to breathe.

Don't read into the Scriptures more than was written. To do so ADDS to God's Word, which is a dangerous activity at best!

Um, the dust and spirit refer back to:

Genesis 2:7 (AV)
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So, there is a biblical cross reference in the interpretation of what I highlighted in the scripture I quoted (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

You, however, choose to over emphasize as literal the word ruach as meaning only breath or wind in accordance with your predetermined theology 

which is the most dangerous way to interpret scripture.

There is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof...

This is why we are to know first that interpretation of the Holy Scriptures is exclusively that of the Holy Spirit and not man.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Um, the dust and spirit refer back to:

Genesis 2:7 (AV)
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So, there is a biblical cross reference in the interpretation of what I highlighted in the scripture I quoted (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

You, however, choose to over emphasize as literal the word ruach as meaning only breath or wind in accordance with your predetermined theology 

which is the most dangerous way to interpret scripture.

There is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof...

This is why we are to know first that interpretation of the Holy Scriptures is exclusively that of the Holy Spirit and not man.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Shalom, JohnD.

Ummm.... The Hebrew word "ruwach" isn't in Genesis 2:7.

[JohnD]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JohnD.

Ummm.... The Hebrew word "ruwach" isn't in Genesis 2:7.

Breath in either case. 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

Breath in either case. 

Shalom, JohnD.

Well, not exactly. They are NOT just synonyms. IF "ruwach" is used for "breath," it's a FORCEFUL breath - BLOWING like the "wind," as an analogy. When "nshaamaah" is used, it is used for a "puff" of air, often used for a "gasp" or a "panting."

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) -- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

That's "sensible" in the sense of "palpable," "able to feel it." 

7306 ruwach (roo-akh'). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy) -- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

5397 nshaamaah (nesh-aw-maw'). From naasham; a puff, i.e. Wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. Or (concretely) an animal -- blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

5395 naasham (naw-sham'). A primitive root; properly, to blow away, i.e. Destroy -- destroy.

And, the NAS Exhaustive Concordance and Brown-Driver-Briggs correct this to say that the definition is "to pant."

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JohnD.

Continuing on...

Anyway, the point is that God did NOT create some "immaterial part" of the Man in Genesis 2:7; He was "PUFFING" INTO HIS NOSTRILS, BLOWING UP HIS BRAND NEW LUNGS for the first time, starting the Man's breathing process, and the Man became a living "air-breather," a living "SOUL!" The concept of an "immaterial part" to a man (or woman) is a Greek mythological/philosophical adaptation that was adopted, first by Judaism and then later by Christianity!

When one comes to accept that fact, all the pieces begin to fall into place! It's not hard, nor is it a "great mystery!"

So, when Yeshua`, for instance, "breathed His last breath," He became a CORPSE - a "NON-air-breather!" When He went to "sh'owl" (or "sheol," as many choose to write it), He was simply put in the tomb as one dead!

When His Father raised Him from the dead, He made Him an "air-breather" once again; however, He ADDED a strength that wasn't there before. God made Yeshua` an "air-BLASTER," a "spiritual body!" Paul talks about this in the Resurrection Chapter, 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 (KJV)

12 Now if Christ (the Messiah) be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Later, he continues:

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but ..

there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes, and 
another of birds. 

40 There are also ...
celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies above-[the]-sky"),
and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies above-[the]-earth"):

but the glory of the celestial is one (visible light), and the glory of the terrestrial is another (infrared light). 

41 There is one glory (radiance) of the sun,
and another glory (radiance) of the moon,
and another glory (radiance) of the stars:
for one star differeth from another star in glory (radiance).

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption (Greek: fthora = "decay");
it is raised in incorruption (Greek: aftharsia = "indestructabiliy"): 
43 It is sown in dishonour (Greek: atimia = "disgrace");
it is raised in glory (Greek: doxee = "fame"):
it is sown in weakness (Greek: astheneia = "frailty");
it is raised in power (Greek: dunamei = "physical power"): 
44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "a-body air-breathing");
it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "a-body air-blasting").

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The (first) man - Adam - was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "an-air-breather living")";

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "life-giving wind"). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: ek gees, choikos = "out-of [the] earth, dustlike"):
the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou = "out-of [the] sky"). 

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy (Greek: hoios ho choikos, toioutoi kai hoi choikoi = "like the dustlike [one] so also the dustlike [ones]") : and
as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoios ho epouranios, toioutoi kai hoi epouranioi = "like the [one] above-the-sky, so also the [ones] above the sky"). 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For ...

this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
this mortal must put on immortality. 

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory." 

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (through our Master, Yeshua`, the Messiah).

And, to keep us from coming to the wrong conclusions by misunderstanding Paul's words here, Yeshua` has this interchange with His disciples soon after His resurrection:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Thus, a "spiritual body" is still physical! He could eat, be felt, and be handled. While He was more than "flesh and blood," He was still "flesh and bones."

[JohnD]

On 6/27/2019 at 6:32 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JohnD.

Well, not exactly. They are NOT just synonyms. IF "ruwach" is used for "breath," it's a FORCEFUL breath - BLOWING like the "wind," as an analogy. When "nshaamaah" is used, it is used for a "puff" of air, often used for a "gasp" or a "panting."

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) -- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

That's "sensible" in the sense of "palpable," "able to feel it." 

7306 ruwach (roo-akh'). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy) -- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

5397 nshaamaah (nesh-aw-maw'). From naasham; a puff, i.e. Wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. Or (concretely) an animal -- blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

5395 naasham (naw-sham'). A primitive root; properly, to blow away, i.e. Destroy -- destroy.

And, the NAS Exhaustive Concordance and Brown-Driver-Briggs correct this to say that the definition is "to pant."

If you wish to get into a debate over the pictographic language oxhead = alef house = bayith etc. and their meanings... you are going to debate only yourself. 

The idea God coveys to man about wind, breath, etc. is about that which is living and animates us which we cannot see or hear but is nevertheless existent:  spirit

If you choose to lapse into whichever interpretation suits you to disbelieve at whatever point you wish that God is speaking about a spirit (i.e. a spirit in man) because you are locked into a predetermined, extrabiblical belief system... then you have every right to do so. But you are never going to convince people who can read their Bibles that God is not referring to the spirit of man in the verses I already showed in Ecclesiastes and other places in the word of God.

For all I care, you can believe the word Ab  means oxhead house and not father.

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by JohnD