What Happens When you Die?

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

If you wish to get into a debate over the pictographic language oxhead = alef house = bayith etc. and their meanings... you are going to debate only yourself. 

The idea God coveys to man about wind, breath, etc. is about that which is living and animates us which we cannot see or hear but is nevertheless existent:  spirit

If you choose to lapse into whichever interpretation suits you to disbelieve at whatever point you wish that God is speaking about a spirit (i.e. a spirit in man) because you are locked into a predetermined, extrabiblical belief system... then you have every right to do so. But you are never going to convince people who can read their Bibles that God is not referring to the spirit of man in the verses I already showed in Ecclesiastes and other places in the word of God.

For all I care, you can believe the word Ab  means oxhead house and not father.

 

Shabbat shalom, JohnD.

I'm feeling the frustration in your post, brother. My whole point is that NO verse REQUIRES the "spirit," whether translated from "ruwach" or "pneuma," to be any living entity that survives death! Death is defined as the "cessation of life" ... EXCEPT for us who believe in the RESURRECTION!!!

See, that's the WHOLE POINT as to WHY there will be a RESURRECTION in the first place!

We don't just "fly off to be alive eternally in Heaven spiritually!" We get that in the FICTION of Greek/Roman mythology and Norse mythology, which we must suffer from the history of our languages and our peoples that endures in our society's collective mind! Our God doesn't live on the top of Mt. Olympus or in Asgard, and He's not limited to some theoretical/theological place called "Heaven," either!

Instead, we are re-created in the Resurrection, and we are changed into immortal, indestructible, super-strong bodies that will NEVER die again! We don't "go to Heaven"; our "Heaven" comes HERE! (It's called the "New Jerusalem.") In between the Resurrection and the Arrival of the New Jerusalem is the Millennium, the 1,000 years of haSatan's incarceration, when we "live and reign with the Messiah" upon this earth!

THAT'S how our theology should have been shaped!

[JohnD]

On 6/29/2019 at 5:59 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, JohnD.

I'm feeling the frustration in your post, brother. My whole point is that NO verse REQUIRES the "spirit," whether translated from "ruwach" or "pneuma," to be any living entity that survives death! Death is defined as the "cessation of life" ... EXCEPT for us who believe in the RESURRECTION!!!

See, that's the WHOLE POINT as to WHY there will be a RESURRECTION in the first place!

We don't just "fly off to be alive eternally in Heaven spiritually!" We get that in the FICTION of Greek/Roman mythology and Norse mythology, which we must suffer from the history of our languages and our peoples that endures in our society's collective mind! Our God doesn't live on the top of Mt. Olympus or in Asgard, and He's not limited to some theoretical/theological place called "Heaven," either!

Instead, we are re-created in the Resurrection, and we are changed into immortal, indestructible, super-strong bodies that will NEVER die again! We don't "go to Heaven"; our "Heaven" comes HERE! (It's called the "New Jerusalem.") In between the Resurrection and the Arrival of the New Jerusalem is the Millennium, the 1,000 years of haSatan's incarceration, when we "live and reign with the Messiah" upon this earth!

THAT'S how our theology should have been shaped!

Okay, so how would God describe spirit to man for the first time?

And then top refer back to it consistently to insure it is understood how the same thing is being referred to?

Booga Booga... (what's that? says man) 

It's what lives in you. It's undetectable to all your senses, but you have a booga booga.

Man: Okay. What's it like.

Just accept it, already. You are part booga booga.

No, God introduced man to the things that are (like spirit) using examples like wind and breath which man can detect somewhat

we can feel but we can't the wind and the breath... and the absence of breath we observe is death.

You cannot over emphasize the examples (like you do) to disprove the truth God is teaching mankind.

I am sorry, but to interpret this verse as you have (that man dies on his back and animals die on their stomachs) sounds ridiculous. But absurdity is the resort people flee to who misinterpret the truth or refuse to believe it.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (AV)
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

We must all beware of our unwillingness to submit to the interpretation of the Holy Spirit in this manner.

 

 

[Robert.A]

i think as someone else posted. Jesus told the thief TODAY you will be with my in PARADISE. so if death is death until the resurection did Jesus lie. no of course not.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Robert.A.

Yes, I know. However, it's not a lie to understand that, from the thief's perspective, it WOULD still be "today" when he would be resurrected. After all, the thief died very soon after having his legs broken. He would close his eyes in "sleep" and open them, immediately for him, in the Messiah's Kingdom.

Remember, too, that the word "paradise," a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos" which in turn was a transliteration of the Hebrew word "pardeec" (pronounced "par-DACE"), simply means a "park of trees" or an "orchard." And, while Yochanan (John) associates "the paradise of God" with the future New Jerusalem, ANY such "park of trees" would qualify as a "paradeisos/pardeec/park."

In God's Kingdom in Israel, over which the Mashiyach Yeshua` shall reign as Melekh ("King"), any such garden He shall choose for Himself shall be the King's Park, and since the man was crucified with Yeshua` just outside the Old City of Jerusalem's walls, his burial location is somewhat near. Indeed, the foot of Har-HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) was a burial site, and the Garden of Gethsemane upon the Mount of Olives was such a park.

"I could be wrong," as Detective Adrian Monk would say, "but I don't think so."

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

Okay, so how would God describe spirit to man for the first time?

And then top refer back to it consistently to insure it is understood how the same thing is being referred to?

Shalom, JohnD.

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

"Booga Booga..." says God. 

"What's that?" says man. 

God: "It's what lives in you. It's undetectable to all your senses, but you have a booga booga."

Man: "Okay. What's it like?"

God: "Just accept it, already. You are part booga booga."

Use quotation marks; it will make it more intelligible.

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

No, God introduced man to the things that are (like "spirit") using examples like "wind" and "breath," which man can detect somewhat.

We can feel but we can't [see] the wind and the breath... and the absence of breath we observe is death.

Okay, stop right there! Why does it have to be analogous for something else? You just said, "The absence of breath we observe is death"! That's enough!

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

You cannot over emphasize the examples (like you do) to disprove the truth God is teaching mankind.

I am sorry, but to interpret this verse as you have (that man dies on his back and animals die on their stomachs) sounds ridiculous. But absurdity is the resort people flee to who misinterpret the truth or refuse to believe it.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (AV)
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth.

We must all beware of our unwillingness to submit to the interpretation of the Holy Spirit in this manner.

Well, you're ASSUMING that "the interpretation of the Holy Spirit" is the same as YOUR interpretation. Many make the same assumption, but don't have a "scriptural leg" to stand on!

Even if you can't accept my simple explanation for the word "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 3:21, there's still a HOST of other interpretations before settling on YOUR interpretation!

Ever see a bull fight (in movies now as it's been ruled "animal cruelty")? As the great beast is slowing down, it snorts one last time, blowing dust from the ground below him, and falls, never to rise again. You may snigger at the suggestion, but it is a viable way to look at the wording of this verse! Even if you want to say that the "spirit" is something that is unique in a human being, differing from that of a beast, it still doesn't have to be a part of that person's personhood! It can STILL be the impersonal life, for instance, that is imparted by God to a human being that so differs from a beast! That's another interpretation that doesn't involve having a "spirit" being "part of a man" that lives on after death in some limbo called "Heaven!"

Why do the Scriptures use the same words, "ruwach" ("spirit") and "nefesh" ("soul"), for animals as well as human beings, if they're so "different?"

Observe:

Genesis 6:17-20 (KJV)

17 "And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath (Hebrew: ruwach) of life, from under heaven (the skies); [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die.

18 "But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every [sort] shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep [them] alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive...."

and

Genesis 7:19-23 (KJV)

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven (skies), were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life (Hebrew: nishmat ruwach chayiym = "puffs of wind/breath of lives"), of all that [was] in the dry [land], died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.

and

Genesis 1:20-21, 24-25 (KJV)

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breather") that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breather") that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

...

24And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breather") after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:"

and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 

[Robert.A]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Robert.A.

Yes, I know. However, it's not a lie to understand that, from the thief's perspective, it WOULD still be "today" when he would be resurrected. After all, the thief died very soon after having his legs broken. He would close his eyes in "sleep" and open them, immediately for him, in the Messiah's Kingdom.

Remember, too, that the word "paradise," a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos" which in turn was a transliteration of the Hebrew word "pardeec" (pronounced "par-DACE"), simply means a "park of trees" or an "orchard." And, while Yochanan (John) associates "the paradise of God" with the future New Jerusalem, ANY such "park of trees" would qualify as a "paradeisos/pardeec/park."

In God's Kingdom in Israel, over which the Mashiyach Yeshua` shall reign as Melekh ("King"), any such garden He shall choose for Himself shall be the King's Park, and since the man was crucified with Yeshua` just outside the Old City of Jerusalem's walls, his burial location is somewhat near. Indeed, the foot of Har-HaZeitiym (the Mount of Olives) was a burial site, and the Garden of Gethsemane upon the Mount of Olives was such a park.

"I could be wrong," as Detective Adrian Monk would say, "but I don't think so."

If that was true then Jesus deceived with his words. He didnt say , "You will die and when you awake you will be with me in Paradise, " No his words were chosen as they are true, "TODAY" this is a specific time. Not "oh by the way for the next few thousad years you will sleep , but hey hey you wont know" this isnt the matrix movie.

And as you like to use the Root words from Greek

 

sēmeron
on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed)
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

[Jostler]

28 minutes ago, Robert.A said:

If that was true then Jesus deceived with his words. He didnt say , "You will die and when you awake you will be with me in Paradise, " No his words were chosen as they are true, "TODAY" this is a specific time. Not "oh by the way for the next few thousad years you will sleep , but hey hey you wont know" this isnt the matrix movie.

And as you like to use the Root words from Greek

 

sēmeron
on the (i.e. this) day (or night current or just passed)
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The story of Lazarus told beginning  in Luke 16:20 gives some pretty strong support to your position.  Jesus went  to Hades and evidently at that time  there was a place VISIBLE from Hades where the righteous dead were "comforted" in the bosom of Abraham.  The thief would have been taken there, while Jesus' suffering  all that death means for our sake would logically have been observable to the thief.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Jostler

[Robert.A]

1 minute ago, Jostler said:

The story of Lazarus told beginning  in Luke 16:20 gives some pretty strong support to your position.  Jesus wen  to Hades and evidently at that time  there was a place VISIBLE from Hades where the righteous dead were "comforted" in the bosom of Abraham.  The thief would have been taken there, while Jesus' suffering  all that death means for our sake would logically have been observable to the thief.

umm i thought that was a parable,  only a story, not an exact retelling

[Jostler]

1 minute ago, Robert.A said:

umm i thought that was a parable,  only a story, not an exact retelling

I  think that's an arguable point, so I hate to be dogmatic, but notice that in parables, in no other case I am aware of does He use a proper name.  Given that, and His use of Lazarus to specifically identify a real person, I believe this was a real event He was describing in this case.

Your mileage may vary

[Robert.A]

1 minute ago, Jostler said:

I  think that's an arguable point, so I hate to be dogmatic, but notice that in parables, in no other case I am aware of does He use a proper name.  Given that, and His use of Lazarus to specifically identify a real person, I believe this was a real event He was describing in this case.

Your mileage may vary

Lazerus was a common name. But i see no evidence other than your suggestion that it real life.  

 

but each to their own i guess.