Wheat and the Tares

[Daniel59]

Parable of the tares of the field.

Jesus explains

Matt 13:36-43 (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7 (KJV)

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Gen 7:8 (KJV)

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Gen 4:1-2 (KJV)

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Gen 4:25 (KJV)

Cont. 38-but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

I John 3:10-12

V10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

V11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

V12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did ea t

Gen 3:6 (KJV)

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Gen 3:13 (KJV)

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:14-15 (KJV)

John 8:38-48 (KJV)

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 8:38-48 (KJV)

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:11-12 (KJV)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have

their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 21:1-8 (KJV)

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Matt 25:31-32 (KJV)

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matt 13:36-43 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:1-4 (KJV)

Pray for discernment

I have tried to follow this thread, but this is what the Holy Spirit has guided me to.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Daniel59

[JohnD]

The union is also directed at today's church....the message is also for "US".

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Without a doubt the entire Bible has the Church in mind even if not dealing directly with the Church at the time of the writing. But it's more along these lines:

John 4:38 (NIV)

38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”

[JohnD]

Jesus spoke of the tares being sown in amongst the good seed in the good field while the workers slept... I for one interpret that as being not daily slumber but being asleep at the wheel (while on guard duty, if you will).

Exodus 18 (NIV)

1 Now Jethro, the priest of Midian and father-in-law of Moses, heard of everything God had done for Moses and for his people Israel, and how the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt.

2 After Moses had sent away his wife Zipporah, his father-in-law Jethro received her

3 and her two sons. One son was named Gershom, for Moses said, “I have become an alien in a foreign land”;

4 and the other was named Eliezer, for he said, “My father’s God was my helper; he saved me from the sword of Pharaoh.”

5 Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, together with Moses’ sons and wife, came to him in the desert, where he was camped near the mountain of God.

6 Jethro had sent word to him, “I, your father-in-law Jethro, am coming to you with your wife and her two sons.”

7 So Moses went out to meet his father-in-law and bowed down and kissed him. They greeted each other and then went into the tent.

8 Moses told his father-in-law about everything the LORD had done to Pharaoh and the Egyptians for Israel’s sake and about all the hardships they had met along the way and how the LORD had saved them.

9 Jethro was delighted to hear about all the good things the LORD had done for Israel in rescuing them from the hand of the Egyptians.

10 He said, “Praise be to the LORD, who rescued you from the hand of the Egyptians and of Pharaoh, and who rescued the people from the hand of the Egyptians.

11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.”

12 Then Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, brought a burnt offering and other sacrifices to God, and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law in the presence of God.

13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening.

14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”

15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will.

16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and laws.”

17 Moses’ father-in-law replied, “What you are doing is not good.

18 You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone.

19 Listen now to me and I will give you some advice, and may God be with you. You must be the people’s representative before God and bring their disputes to him.

20 Teach them the decrees and laws, and show them the way to live and the duties they are to perform.

21 But select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens.

22 Have them serve as judges for the people at all times, but have them bring every difficult case to you; the simple cases they can decide themselves. That will make your load lighter, because they will share it with you.

23 If you do this and God so commands, you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied.”

24 Moses listened to his father-in-law and did everything he said.

25 He chose capable men from all Israel and made them leaders of the people, officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens.

26 They served as judges for the people at all times. The difficult cases they brought to Moses, but the simple ones they decided themselves.

27 Then Moses sent his father-in-law on his way, and Jethro returned to his own country.

Moses did not as much as consult the LORD on this matter. Advice he received from his pagan priest father-in-law and put into practice as the leader of the chosen people of God as the Law Giver (Torah giver)... without any input or consultation from the God of the people Moses lead.

Let this sink in a moment.

It would be likened to Jesus not silencing the demons who proclaimed him Christ and accepting their testimony... which he most certainly did not do.

Moses was asleep at the wheel... while on guard duty... and he created a body of judges which the Sanhedrin of the First Century CE traces its beginning to... the very body of judges who opposed the promised Messiah and who condemned the Holy One of Israel to death and turned him over to the pagans to do their bidding on the cross.

Moses could say a hearty "amen" to the proverb "there is a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death."

And by the way, I only report what the scriptures teach. Were I in Moses' shoes I would do far worse than he did. I could not hold a candle to Moshe ben Amram.

[gdemoss]

John, Moses did not do wrong. His father in law was the priest of Midian a descendant of Abraham who was of Jehovah God, just not an Israelite and God's chosen people. As he stated to Moses "And God command thee", where he acknowledges God must first agree that it should be so. If Moses dividing up the judging of the people were a bad things that was to destroy Israel then God would not had written of Moses in Hebrews saying that he was faithful in all of his house.

I do agree with you about being asleep at the wheel is how the tares get sewn though. Men slept who needed to awake unto righteousness and sin not. The need to put away the leaven from the lump that they might be a new lump.

God Bless,

Gary

[JohnD]

John, Moses did not do wrong. His father in law was the priest of Midian a descendant of Abraham who was of Jehovah God, just not an Israelite and God's chosen people. As he stated to Moses "And God command thee", where he acknowledges God must first agree that it should be so. If Moses dividing up the judging of the people were a bad things that was to destroy Israel then God would not had written of Moses in Hebrews saying that he was faithful in all of his house.

I do agree with you about being asleep at the wheel is how the tares get sewn though. Men slept who needed to awake unto righteousness and sin not. The need to put away the leaven from the lump that they might be a new lump.

God Bless,

Gary

If the standard you are setting were true, then the time Moses struck the rock a second time and the time he killed an Egyptian would be more than enough to disqualify him of being faithful in all of his house.

So the standard you set above cannot be true.

If you have found a scripture where it says God commanded Moses to do as his father-in-law suggested, by all means cite it here. I have not found such a scripture, but if one exists I shall defer to that scripture and retract my point. But if it is not found then my point was merely stating facts.

And, if you can cite scriptures stating Midianites were not Gentiles / pagans, I will reconsider also the fact that Jethro was a pagan priest.

[tsth]

It seems as though this topic has veered into something else...........so be it.

Here is the order of events that are mentioned above with regard to Moses and his father-in-law.

Exodus 18: 10 And Jethro said, "Blessed be the Lord, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians and out of the hand of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. 11 Now I know that the Lord is greater than all the gods; for in the very thing in which they behaved proudly, He was above them." 12 Then Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and other sacrifices to offer to God. And Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law before God. 13 And so it was, on the next day, that Moses sat to judge the people; and the people stood before Moses from morning until evening. 14 So when Moses' father-in-law saw all that he did for the people, he said, "What is this thing that you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit, and all the people stand before you from morning until evening?" 15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, "Because the people come to me to inquire of God. 16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws." 17 So Moses' father-in-law said to him, "The thing that you do is not good. 18 Both you and these people who are with you will surely wear yourselves out. For this thing is too much for you; you are not able to perform it by yourself. 19 Listen now to my voice; I will give you counsel, and God will be with you: Stand before God for the people, so that you may bring the difficulties to God. 20 And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do. 21 Moreover you shall select from all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them to be rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. 22 And let them judge the people at all times. Then it will be that every great matter they shall bring to you, but every small matter they themselves shall judge. So it will be easier for you, for they will bear the burden with you. 23 If you do this thing, and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all this people will also go to their place in peace." 24 So Moses heeded the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.

The structure given is given as godly order....much like how the order of the NT church was supposed to be. (see 1st Timothy and Titus)

In His Love,

Suzanne

[gdemoss]

John, Moses did not do wrong. His father in law was the priest of Midian a descendant of Abraham who was of Jehovah God, just not an Israelite and God's chosen people. As he stated to Moses "And God command thee", where he acknowledges God must first agree that it should be so. If Moses dividing up the judging of the people were a bad things that was to destroy Israel then God would not had written of Moses in Hebrews saying that he was faithful in all of his house.

I do agree with you about being asleep at the wheel is how the tares get sewn though. Men slept who needed to awake unto righteousness and sin not. The need to put away the leaven from the lump that they might be a new lump.

God Bless,

Gary

If the standard you are setting were true, then the time Moses struck the rock a second time and the time he killed an Egyptian would be more than enough to disqualify him of being faithful in all of his house.

So the standard you set above cannot be true.

If you have found a scripture where it says God commanded Moses to do as his father-in-law suggested, by all means cite it here. I have not found such a scripture, but if one exists I shall defer to that scripture and retract my point. But if it is not found then my point was merely stating facts.

And, if you can cite scriptures stating Midianites were not Gentiles / pagans, I will reconsider also the fact that Jethro was a pagan priest.

John, you make a great point. The scripture I quoted about Moses being faithful in all of his house must be seen in light of the fact that he did disobey God. That doesn't automatically make your point correct though. You assume that because Moses father in law was the priest of Midian that he was a pagan priest who worshiped pagan deities. There is no scriptural support for your claim. Just because the Midianites were such people doesn't mean that Jethro was teaching such things. Israel was instructed to in the ways of Jehovah but followed after pagan Gods. The prophets were all men of God but subject unto disobedient people. God has chosen to put prophets of his in other places than Israel. This point can be made in Balaam, who was a prophet of Jehovah God even though he did evil, who was not of Israel. Just as Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God. God did not limit himself to revelation only through Israel as a vehicle.

Can we say that Moses harkening unto Jethro is his being disobedient to God and asleep at the wheel? I don't think that the scripture supports the claim without serious doubt. Moses was a type of Christ for the earthly kingdom of God through Israel. Christ himself will divide his kingdom in the same fashion when he comes to rule and reign over the earth for his millennial kingdom. How is it that you say it is wrong to do such a thing? Even the church itself is divided up in the same manner by order of authority as found in the Corinthian epistle. Heaven itself is ordered by dominion of principalities and powers given for the purpose of governing all of creation. The human family is ordered by authority through birthrights which are the assignment of power and authority by God.

In Num 11:16 we find that God himself is the one who tells Moses to gather 70 elders of the people together, whom he gives a portion of his own spirit too. The Sanhedrin was Gods idea, no doubt.

I can't help but believe that Moses did properly in this matter.

[JohnD]

I am seeing a lot of supposition in response to my apologetic. Midianites weren't pagans. Moses did properly when he did not as much as consult the Lord. Maybe when Joshua did not consult the Lord he actually did okay too (Joshua 9 particularly verses 14 and 15)?

Numbers 22:7 (NIV)

7 The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination. When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said.

Leviticus 19:26 (NIV)

26 ”‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. ”‘Do not practice divination or sorcery.

There, now you have it. Midian practiced divination / sorcery. Pagan.

[gdemoss]

I am seeing a lot of supposition in response to my apologetic. Midianites weren't pagans. Moses did properly when he did not as much as consult the Lord. Maybe when Joshua did not consult the Lord he actually did okay too (Joshua 9 particularly verses 14 and 15)?

Numbers 22:7 (NIV)

7 The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination. When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said.

Leviticus 19:26 (NIV)

26 ”‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. ”‘Do not practice divination or sorcery.

There, now you have it. Midian practiced divination / sorcery. Pagan.

I never said Midianites where not a pagan nation as a whole. They were, however, descendants of Abraham and would have originally had the covenant of circumcision as the scripture says that Abraham kept all of Gods laws. I said Jethro could have been a priest of the Lord, the scriptures only say he was the priest of Midian and you choose to see this as the only possible explanation being he was a pagan priest. The scriptures don't say either way. Israel practiced sorcery at times too. They behaved like a pagan nation. Joshua did not consult the Lord and the Lord decided to write that fact in his word for us to review as far as Joshua was concerned. The scripture gives no reference to Moses consulting the Lord or not consulting the Lord. If you can show where it does or doesn't I will concede the point.

I only brought these things up out of concern that you might wish to reconsider your thoughts but I understand that you are not interested. I will leave you alone now. I have no need to return to this thread. Have a good day.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[JohnD]

I am seeing a lot of supposition in response to my apologetic. Midianites weren't pagans. Moses did properly when he did not as much as consult the Lord. Maybe when Joshua did not consult the Lord he actually did okay too (Joshua 9 particularly verses 14 and 15)?

Numbers 22:7 (NIV)

7 The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination. When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said.

Leviticus 19:26 (NIV)

26 ”‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. ”‘Do not practice divination or sorcery.

There, now you have it. Midian practiced divination / sorcery. Pagan.

I never said Midianites where not a pagan nation as a whole. They were, however, descendants of Abraham and would have originally had the covenant of circumcision as the scripture says that Abraham kept all of Gods laws. I said Jethro could have been a priest of the Lord, the scriptures only say he was the priest of Midian and you choose to see this as the only possible explanation being he was a pagan priest. The scriptures don't say either way. Israel practiced sorcery at times too. They behaved like a pagan nation. Joshua did not consult the Lord and the Lord decided to write that fact in his word for us to review as far as Joshua was concerned. The scripture gives no reference to Moses consulting the Lord or not consulting the Lord. If you can show where it does or doesn't I will concede the point.

I only brought these things up out of concern that you might wish to reconsider your thoughts but I understand that you are not interested. I will leave you alone now. I have no need to return to this thread. Have a good day.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Gary, if you'd quit defending your ideal Moses (realizing he was an outstanding leader and all but still only human) and quit trying to salvage your own argument and look to just the scriptures, you will see I am not unwilling to reconsider my thoughts so long as you or anyone else provides biblical texts to the contrary.

So, this is not the "my opinion is as good as your opinion" scenario you are implying it is. These are Bible based points I am making.