What are the three major points?

[thomas t]

Hi Tigger,

I appreciate your way of answering my post! Really.

20 hours ago, Tigger56 said:

A pediophile can claim their desire for little children is based on their sexuality,

but if a pedophile dares to abuse a child, he infringes the identity of the victim. So even if they claim child abuse to be part of their identity, this can't reasonably lead to accepting child abuse.

20 hours ago, Tigger56 said:

The Lord is not an unjust God

 

Your reasoning says that sexuality must be a choice since if it wasn't, God would be unjust.

Not necessarily, I think. If sexuality leads into trouble in the spiritual, God can expect less from gays and lesbians and everything would be just (in my opinion).

 

20 hours ago, Tigger56 said:

I look at it as a sexual choice

Homosexuality as a mere choice. I see this as an assumption of yours. This, in my opinion, is basically how you justify discrimination against gays and lesbians, if I get you right.

Discrimination, however, should never be based on assumptions, I think.

20 hours ago, Tigger56 said:

Should we love them?  Yes! But not condone their actions.

Since I see sexuality as identity being more than a array of actions and behavior... I would conclude that you can't love them the moment you speak up against a part of their identity. Their identity belongs to them.

 

Thank you for your friendly attitude towards me in your last post, again.

Regards,

Thomas

[Tigger56]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

Hi Tigger,

I appreciate your way of answering my post! Really.

but if a pedophile dares to abuse a child, he infringes the identity of the victim. So even if they claim child abuse to be part of their identity, this can't reasonably lead to accepting child abuse.

 

Your reasoning says that sexuality must be a choice since if it wasn't, God would be unjust.

Not necessarily, I think. If sexuality leads into trouble in the spiritual, God can expect less from gays and lesbians and everything would be just (in my opinion).

 

Homosexuality as a mere choice. I see this as an assumption of yours. This, in my opinion, is basically how you justify discrimination against gays and lesbians, if I get you right.

Discrimination, however, should never be based on assumptions, I think.

Since I see sexuality as identity being more than a array of actions and behavior... I would conclude that you can't love them the moment you speak up against a part of their identity. Their identity belongs to them.

 

Thank you for your friendly attitude towards me in your last post, again.

Regards,

Thomas

Thomas, good morning!

Let's look at what your responses are.  This may take a moment. I agree we should never accept child abuse, but as I see people accept the concept of homosexuality as being simply a matter of sexuality then pedophiles are next on the horizon. (note: I use the term "homosexuals" as an acceptable term over perhaps the term used in scripture, "sodomites".) I have even seen some articles on it where people are saying that they shouldn't be condemned or imprisoned or discriminated against because it is just the way they are born. Sad, but I do see this coming and hope you look around on some articles on it. Being a pedophile isn't simply "a sexuality" nor is being homosexual. It is choice. You state that it is an assumption of mine, but isn't it an assumption on your part that it isn't a choice. Why do so men become homosexual while in prison? They choose to sleep with other men. It isn't that all of them all of a sudden discover their "sexuality". God is just and he does condemn homosexuals in his holy word. When the men at Sodom desired the men (angels) at Lot's home over his own daughters, I don't see an exception being made for them. The Lord destroyed the cities. God's law is just and fair based upon love but without partiality, it is just and fair to all, but if one chooses to follow a path against the law of God then there are consequences.

In regards to not having "love" if you speak against someone's sexuality, this is in error. You say it is against their "sexuality" but it is against a choice. I truly believe God's word does show that it isn't simply a lifestyle, it is a choice. But if we wanted to say for argument's sake that it is their sexuality, then how can we speak against rapists? Yes, it isn't consensual, but how can we dare accuse or discriminate against the rapist, it is his sexuality, he can't control his urges... he was born that way.  If a pedophile attacks a child... how dare we accuse or discriminate... it is his sexuality, he can't control his urges....  To me this is the argument being used for people who chose to lie with those of the same sex.  This argument is a dangerous and slippery slope that opens the argument to these other choices.

But I can love the person and still speak against their actions. If love means never being able to speak against another's choices then how do we ever declare to a sinner that they need to repent? 

In history, it has been shown that homosexuality becomes more prevalent as a nation draws closer to its own demise. This should be a warning to many in our nation and world today. It is an evidence of darkness growing, it's not enlightenment. The book, "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" is a fascinating book to read and you will find similarities today.

If homosexuality is something God endorses (this has to be a question that can only be asked by ignoring segments of the Bible),  Then we have the old question but fair question of....  why didn't God create Adam and Bob instead of Adam and Eve.... Well, we do know they would have been totally unable to fulfill the command of be "fruitful and multiply".  But in fairness.... why not Adam and Eve, and in another section of the garden, Sam and Steve, just to be fair.

Thank you Thomas, you once again present questions or reasoning that face many. I believe many are deluded by the mainstream media and by Hollywood by making homosexuality as something beautiful and good. But it is not and those who participate in it need to be shown the truth and yes, I do believe truth can be presented in a loving and patient way. If a couple of homosexuals came to our church, they would be welcomed with love and kindness, and in God's love, I believe He would start opening their minds and hearts. I don't think it would be too difficult because gays or lesbians, though they defend their way in loud and hostile ways know deep down they are wrong.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Tigger56
Added more words and corrected an error in typing

[In Him]

On 5/23/2019 at 5:23 PM, Jostler said:

I appreciate the topic, and i have a feeling the REAL answers are more  like a spiderweb in relation  to  each other, than a linear list  of importance,  so I'd expect different ones among us may highlight different perspectives, but  I bet  the discussion  will be thought provoking.  I doubt  any  one answer  will encompass all there  is  to be profitably shared.

I personally identified most  with  @PromisesPromises! answer so far, but, I'd modify it a little.    I think my "angle" is just a little  different, expressed in different  words, but I'm still pretty much seeing  things the same  way, just looking at  it from a different direction.

In my opinion THE number  one problem is:

1.  Unbelief.  We have (corporately and individually) a real struggle with being unbelieving believers.  "Believing" is the work of God.  And its real work, and a constant challenge to continue in the work.  Where we fail to DO the  work, we suffer loss and lack of appropriating  the promises given as our own experiential reality.

 

One of the biggest "belief failures" is our lack of really  believing we ARE one with Him.  It denies us the depth of relationship He  died for us to be able to enjoy  with Him and Father through  Him.  Which leads to my #2 issue.

2.  Shallow personal relationships with Him.  We're not  guilty of wanting  too  much, but of settling  for way too little.

 

Which leads me to  think of what I believe KEEPS us from believing in and experiencing the depths of oneness and relationship with Him, which is #3.

3.  Shame is THE number one problem that  keeps us from experiencing depth of relationship.  And number 2 isn't even close.

 

my 2 cents

 

Since adding my 2cents in agreement w/the point blank accuracy and insight of this post concerning ‘shame’ being the #1 problem...I’ve since been beautifully chastised for my ‘shame’ that stems from the old man (pride). Believing ingrained lies of not being wanted/forsaken, etc. etc. etc. instead of choosing to BELIEVE what HE says!

HE said that HE will never leave us or forsake us. And SO much much more.

Beautiful Savior.

 

[Not me]

3 minutes ago, In Him said:

Since adding my 2cents in agreement w/the point blank accuracy and insight of this post concerning ‘shame’ being the #1 problem...I’ve since been beautifully chastised for my ‘shame’ that stems from the old man (pride). Believing ingrained lies of not being wanted/forsaken, etc. etc. etc. instead of choosing to BELIEVE what HE says!

HE said that HE will never leave us or forsake us. And SO much much more.

Beautiful Savior.

 

Though it’s a hard truth, scripture says God chastises those that He loves. So by the simple fact God will not let you go, is proof of His love for you and also the proof of the fact He is growing you into a awesome oak tree in His garden. 

Blessing and know He does all things well.

 Much love in Christ, Not me  

[thomas t]

Hi Tigger again,

yours is an in-depth presentation of what many Christians think on that matter. Thank you for presenting it in a calm manner. This attitude's really wide spread, so for me it's so important to adress the issue.

Even if more or less everyone, including myself, also makes assumtions in this regard... if anyone goes as far as to call for open discrimination ... you definitely need more than assumptions to bolster your stance. No facts => no discrimination please.

Even if there was no Steve in the Garden of Eden, this shouln't lead to discrimination, either. God is an artist, see High Song 7:2. From all I know about arts, artists hate messages boiling down to simple one-liners. There were no different races in the Garden. We are not to draw any potentially racist conclusions from that one, either. I'm speaking hypothetically - nothing against you. Moreover, Lesbians can multiply today using modern technology driven support. Gays can adopt children, at least.

 

Sodom could have been bombed by fire due to various reasons. Discrimination against women could be one of those, as they weren't present then. The Sodomites tried to rape. Homosexuals not necessarily. The Sodomites were hostile to foreigners. They didn't respect the right to property. And so on.

2 hours ago, Tigger56 said:

But if we wanted to say for argument's sake that it is their sexuality, then how can we speak against rapists? Yes, it isn't consensual, but how can we dare accuse or discriminate against the rapist, it is his sexuality, he can't control his urges... he was born that way

.. by saying that others, including victims, are born free. Rape is an infringement of their rights.

 

To me, it's mandatory to back assertions up. This particularly true for claiming that more men become gay while in prison; that sexuality led to the downfall of Rome; that other nations before their demise were more gay than others; and that gays know deep down that they are wrong. Citing a mere title of a book can't serve as backup, I think. You would need to present proof for Rome's defeats having had something to do with sexuality.

 

Actually, I'm not making homosexuality as something beautiful. I'm just speaking against discrimination. My motivation is that we as Christians stick to the Golden Rule in that we shouldn't call for discrimination against others so long as we don't want to be discriminated against ourselves.

 

[Tigger56]

8 minutes ago, thomas t said:

Hi Tigger again,

yours is an in-depth presentation of what many Christians think on that matter. Thank you for presenting it in a calm manner. This attitude's really wide spread, so for me it's so important to adress the issue.

Even if more or less everyone, including myself, also makes assumtions in this regard... if anyone goes as far as to call for open discrimination ... you definitely need more than assumptions to bolster your stance. No facts => no discrimination please.

Even if there was no Steve in the Garden of Eden, this shouln't lead to discrimination, either. God is an artist, see High Song 7:2. From all I know about arts, artists hate messages boiling down to simple one-liners. There were no different races in the Garden. We are not to draw any potentially racist conclusions from that one, either. I'm speaking hypothetically - nothing against you. Moreover, Lesbians can multiply today using modern technology driven support. Gays can adopt children, at least.

 

Sodom could have been bombed by fire due to various reasons. Discrimination against women could be one of those, as they weren't present then. The Sodomites tried to rape. Homosexuals not necessarily. The Sodomites were hostile to foreigners. They didn't respect the right to property. And so on.

.. by saying that others, including victims, are born free. Rape is an infringement of their rights.

 

To me, it's mandatory to back assertions up. This particularly true for claiming that more men become gay while in prison; that sexuality led to the downfall of Rome; that other nations before their demise were more gay than others; and that gays know deep down that they are wrong. Citing a mere title of a book can't serve as backup, I think. You would need to present proof for Rome's defeats having had something to do with sexuality.

 

Actually, I'm not making homosexuality as something beautiful. I'm just speaking against discrimination. My motivation is that we as Christians stick to the Golden Rule in that we shouldn't call for discrimination against others so long as we don't want to be discriminated against ourselves.

 

Thomas, I never said that the only reason Rome fell was due to sexuality, but it did become one of the factors that stands out for all societies that go further into darkness. You keep saying that I am making presumptions, but aren't you?  A few years ago Ben Carson talked about the fact that a lot of men switched to a gay lifestyle while in prison. What you call "discrimination", I call obedience to God. Sin is sin, it has to be addressed as such.  We can not simply accept. I believe you are ignoring scripture but will make this one last post on the subject so feel free to have the last word on the matter and those reading can see both sides of the discussion.

I do want to thank you again for presenting the other side of the matter and will let other decide.

You may want to look at the following scriptures:   Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27

In Matthew 19:3, 4-6,  Jesus shows plainly what marriage is meant to be. We can be loving and kind without acceptance of sin.

 

I want to leave you one final thought.

Hebrews 7:26, “For it is indeed fitting that we should have such a High Priest, who is holy, innocent, pure, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.”

 

To be separate does not mean that you isolate yourself from sinners, you isolate yourself from sin by the power of a righteous life. Compromise with darkness gives power to darkness and when you compromise with darkness you are not separate from darkness. We cannot be separate when we look the other way and give tolerance to sin by silence and inaction.

[Jostler]

1 minute ago, Not me said:

Though it’s a hard truth, scripture says God chastises those that He loves. So by the simple fact God will not let you go, is proof of His love for you and also the proof of the fact He is growing you into a awesome oak tree in His garden. 

Blessing and know He does all things well.

 Much love in Christ, Not me  

I think one of the keys to freedom  from shame, is the revelation that shame is the satanic counterfeit  to the  Holy Spirit's conviction.  The counterfeit is SO convincing, the only way to tell the difference is by the fruit each produces.  The Holy Spirit's conviction is a Godly sorrow, an emotion, that drives us TO Him, with a REPENTANT heart.  It will always  drive us TOWARD Him who is the solution, not away from Him.

Shame will feel  almost exactly the same, but it will create in us a desire to HIDE.  Just as it did Adam and Eve in the garden.  If satan can convince us to hide from the answer to our sin, he has successfully bound us to the sin.  And as long as we remain bound he has a foothold in our  lives and a place from which to work to widen that influence and trick us into walking  even  further away from our God.

 

[thomas t]

38 minutes ago, Tigger56 said:

You keep saying that I am making presumptions, but aren't you?

Yes Tigger, I am. Both of us do. Since I'm not making any call for discrimination, it is ok for me to do so, I think.

40 minutes ago, Tigger56 said:

feel free to have the last word on the matter and those reading can see both sides of the discussion.

thank you very much. It's very polite.

Thomas

[Not me]

2 minutes ago, Jostler said:

I think one of the keys to freedom  from shame, is the revelation that shame is the satanic counterfeit  to the  Holy Spirit's conviction.  The counterfeit is SO convincing, the only way to tell the difference is by the fruit each produces.  The Holy Spirit's conviction is a Godly sorrow, an emotion, that drives us TO Him, with a REPENTANT heart.  It will always  drive us TOWARD Him who is the solution, not away from Him.

Shame will feel  almost exactly the same, but it will create in us a desire to HIDE.  Just as it did Adam and Eve in the garden.  If satan can convince us to hide from the answer to our sin, he has successfully bound us to the sin.  And as long as we remain bound he has a foothold in our  lives and a place from which to work to widen that influence and trick us into walking  even  further away from our God.

 

So true and very well stated; 

”The Holy Spirit's conviction is a Godly sorrow, an emotion, that drives us TO Him, with a REPENTANT heart.  It will always  drive us TOWARD Him who is the solution, not away from Him.”

and again;

“If satan can convince us to hide from the answer to our sin, he has successfully bound us to the sin.  And as long as we remain bound he has a foothold in our  lives and a place from which to work to widen that influence and trick us into walking  even  further away from our God.”

^^^^^^???^^^^^^

God's conviction calls us to Him, which we can answer, or hide from. And if we hide from that conviction, like you stated things only go downhill from there. 

You may see something concerning shame I don’t see.

If you would allow me the privilege;

I’m under the impression that shame comes from pride in oneself, thinking they are above or beyond something. Not seeing that sinning (doing wrong) is the natural function of the natural man and the only way to get free from under it’s power, is, as the way of scripture,  to reckon it dead in faith. 

As far as the Spirit’s conviction. As far as I’m aware.

The Holy Spirit convicts.

The devil condemns. 

(my thinks)

Blessings,  

Much love in Christ, Not me 

[Jostler]

3 hours ago, Not me said:

So true and very well stated; 

”The Holy Spirit's conviction is a Godly sorrow, an emotion, that drives us TO Him, with a REPENTANT heart.  It will always  drive us TOWARD Him who is the solution, not away from Him.”

and again;

“If satan can convince us to hide from the answer to our sin, he has successfully bound us to the sin.  And as long as we remain bound he has a foothold in our  lives and a place from which to work to widen that influence and trick us into walking  even  further away from our God.”

^^^^^^???^^^^^^

God's conviction calls us to Him, which we can answer, or hide from. And if we hide from that conviction, like you stated things only go downhill from there. 

You may see something concerning shame I don’t see.

If you would allow me the privilege;

I’m under the impression that shame comes from pride in oneself, thinking they are above or beyond something. Not seeing that sinning (doing wrong) is the natural function of the natural man and the only way to get free from under it’s power, is, as the way of scripture,  to reckon it dead in faith. 

As far as the Spirit’s conviction. As far as I’m aware.

The Holy Spirit convicts.

The devil condemns. 

(my thinks)

Blessings,  

Much love in Christ, Not me 

 

Pride is one of the  most insidious sins we face.  I think it is THE most insidious.  I agree that pride is at the root of shame.  Shame is telling me I'm not good enough, tries to get me to believe I'll never be good enough, and tells me I need to  pay for my failure.

Hello?  Where is my focus?  On ME.  As if it's up to me! 

1. "I'm not good enough"  Well glad we got that sorted.  That should be one of the first things we get settled when we recognize our need for a saviour   It's the whole reason God's love sent His own Son to die.   We're NOT good enough.  But pride sure would like to keep dreaming that I can somehow obtain righteousness by my own effort.

2.  "I'll never be good enough".  please see #1. 

3.  "I need to pay for my failure"  If we stop and think for just one moment, isn't it easy to see just how OFFENSIVE to the Cross, the absolute insult to His sacrifice that is bound up in that thinking?  Pure, unmitigated pride, that puts me under the manipulative thumb of servants of darkness, both human and spirit, who'd love for me to believe I can say a few rosaries, crawl up the steps of the Vatican on my knees til they bleed, or dig off in my wallet and pay an indulgence to earn my forgiveness.  I  don't mean to pick on Catholics.  All religions teach  some form of DOING to earn an exalted place in the  next life.  Only a relationship with Jesus teaches another way.

 

It is not about who  I am, it's not  about what I can do, it's not about my gifts, talents and abilities.  And IT'S NOT ABOUT MY SIN. 

 

It's about Who HE is, and what HE...has FINISHED.

The only thing I can do in relation to that, is believe  or disbelieve.

 

My relationship with sin should be so fleeting and so momentary, that the MOMENT He convicts me I run into His presence, come into  agreement  with Him by saying the same thing about my sin as He  says about my sin (confess - gr. homologeo - to say the same thing as), repent (make a decision to turn away from sin and back to Him) and ask Him to forgive.   Again.   And again.....and a stinkin' 'gin   As many times and as often as it takes for Him to transform us and strengthen us to resist and get to the place where we're stronger than the temptation.

Quote

1Jo 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

THAT is a thirty second process.  Max....might be less if you talk fast

He not only forgives, but CLEANSES us from any stain  of corruption the sin caused.   And look what He hung our confidence on.....HIS FAITHFULLNES...HIS JUSTICE.

If we keep a short list of sins He'll have us walking in the Spirit more consistently, more constantly and more deeply with each day that passes....

Quote

Rom 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

How much is none? 

 

Edit to add: want a mind boggling revelation?   Just ask Him to reveal to you WHY He  proclaimed HE would be guilty of injustice if He DID NOT forgive you    I dare you.

Quote

Jer 33:3

‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

 

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Jostler