a multitude from the Tribulation

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Cletus said:

there is nothing new under the sun.  what has been will be again.  what has been done will be done again. 

if you hate it so much take it up with the Author.  the passage is talking about futute events, and to say otherwise, personally- i hate that teaching.  "it kinda infuriates me because its a stupid teaching."

Try using caps, please. The AUTHOR didn't say that these prophecies would be repeated! To the contrary, He made it plain that one could discover the liars who broadcast prophecies God DIDN'T say from those who gave true prophecies. Then, He commanded the children of Israel to KILL the lying prophets because they were lying about what God said! I wonder how one would react to God treating those who INTERPRETED His prophecies the same way!  EEK!!!

Look, this isn't about how you or I FEEL about the teachings; it's ALL about how GOD feels about those teachings! As I said, I'm not mad or angry with you; I love you as a brother, because ... well, frankly, you ARE a brother. Nevertheless, God's prophecies are UNIQUE! ONE OF A KIND! HOLY! Please don't treat them as common litierature or the nebulous prophecies of someone like Jeanne Dixon or Nostradamus!

When God's prophecies come true and are completed, they are NOT RE-USED like some used Kleenex!  YUK!

Now, there IS such a thing in prophecy as a "double reference" where PART of a prophecy is fulfilled at one point in time and another part of the prophecy is fulfilled at a later time. This is legitimate and NOT a repeating of the prophecy at all. That's what we have here in the Olivet Discourse. Part of the Olivet Dscourse was fulfilled in the First Century A.D. and the rest will be fulfilled when Yeshua` returns. Why is that so repulsive to accept?!

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

15 When ye (disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Hi Retro,

are you saying the EXODUS has happened at 70 AD ? It has not happened Bro.

Because when that happens the Great Tribulation which never happens and which will not happen again will start AND THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED TO SAVE THE ELECTS.

21 For then shall be great tribulation terrible pressure, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

Tell me when God ever shortened the days so the end may come ?

 

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Hi Retro,

are you saying the EXODUS has happened at 70 AD ? It has not happened Bro.

Because when that happens the Great Tribulation which never happens and which will not happen again will start AND THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED TO SAVE THE ELECTS.

21 For then shall be great tribulation terrible pressure, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

Tell me when God ever shortened the days so the end may come?

Shalom, R. Hartono.

(It wasn't a mass exodus; it was the flight of the few who heeded Yeshua`s warnings!)

Yes! The Flight of those who heeded Yeshua`s warnings left soon after 66 A.D. and before the destruction of the Temple and part of Jerusalem in 70 A.D!

To help you with the answer to your last question, let me remind you that the EVENTS on certain days are best seen at least two-dimensionally. Picture a bar graph such that a rectangle is used for each day along the timeline. Each rectangle has a magnitude for the number of hours of persecution within that day. Thus, they each can range from 0 hours to 24 hours, never less and never more. As a snapshot of a day, any portion of a day in Jewish time-keeping is counted as the whole day. Therefore, the more 0-hour days one has, the fewer days that are considered days of persecution within the whole time period. He's not shortening the timeline, nor will He shorten the days along that timeline making up the period, but He SHALL shorten the extent of the persecution, making fewer days of persecution, WITHIN that period! This gives them time within the days of persecution to regenerate and repopulate. Remember: This is why the days are said to be shortened:

Matthew 24:22 (KJV)

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It's not the whole time period that is shortened; it's the number of days of "tribulation" WITHIN the whole time period that is shortened! God has been shortening the days of "tribulation" NOT "so the end may come," but so they may SURVIVE UNTIL THE END! Get it?

[R. Hartono]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, R. Hartono.

(It wasn't a mass exodus; it was the flight of the few who heeded Yeshua`s warnings!)

Yes! The Flight of those who heeded Yeshua`s warnings left soon after 66 A.D. and before the destruction of the Temple and part of Jerusalem in 70 A.D!

The mass exodus of the Jews out of Israel has not happened in 66 AD. John rcvd the vision of this exodus around the year 85 AD and described it here : 

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.  

Antichrist will send his army to chase the Jews like Pharaoh chasing them to the Red Sea but God will rescue them :

Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.                                                        

The earth shall open her mouth and swallow the army of the antichrist like the Red Sea swallowed the army of Pharaoh.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Retrobyter]

On 5/31/2019 at 1:01 AM, R. Hartono said:

The mass exodus of the Jews out of Israel has not happened in 66 AD. John rcvd the vision of this exodus around the year 85 AD and described it here : 

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.  

Antichrist will send his army to chase the Jews like Pharaoh chasing them to the Red Sea but God will rescue them :

Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.                                                        

The earth shall open her mouth and swallow the army of the antichrist like the Red Sea swallowed the army of Pharaoh.

Shabbat shalom, R. Hartono.

Where do you see ANYTHING mentioned about some "antichrist?!" WRONG BOOK!

Before we read, remember these points:

1. "Heaven" means "the sky," which is referring to the "atmosphere," where weather occurs. This is where one will find "clouds," "lightning," "thunder," "rain," and "hail." It can also refer to the nighttime sky, which is when we see "stars" through the atmosphere.

2. Also, "in space, no one can hear you scream." The higher one goes into the atmosphere until he reaches what we call "space," the air rarifies until the molecules are so few and spaced so far apart that they are insufficient to carry sound waves! (This is also a great mistake that many sci-fi movie writers make.) Therefore, no sound can come from space nor from any "Heaven" across space!

3. Also, remember that chapter and verse divisions didn't come on the scene until the 16th Century A.D, long after the Scriptures were written! So, when reading, IGNORE (as often as is humanly possible) the chapter and verse numbers! Technically, they are NOT part of God's Word nor were they INSPIRED! They were added purely for the convenience of communicating references to Scripture.

Here's the text of Revelation:

Revelation 11:1-13:18 (KJV)

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel (messenger) stood, saying,

"Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 

2 "But the court which is without (just outside) the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth (Zech. 4:1-14). 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (Rev. 13:11) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 "And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven (a loud voice from the sky) saying unto them,

"'Come up hither.'

"And they ascended up to heaven (into the sky) in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour (time; moment) was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven (loud voices in the sky), saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH God our Father), and of his Christ (of His Messiah); and he (YHWH God our Father) shall reign for ever and ever." 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (in the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven (in the sky); a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven (in the sky); and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven (the stars/meteorites of the sky), and did cast (throw) them to the earth (into the ground): and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (Yeshua` the Messiah): and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne (Yeshua`s ascension). 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven (a battle in the sky): Michael and his angels (messengers) fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels (messengers), 8 And prevailed not (didn't win); neither was their place found any more in heaven (their place was not found in the sky any more). 9 And the great dragon (the huge reptile) was cast out (was thrown out), that old serpent (original snake), called the Devil (the Slanderer), and Satan (the Enemy), which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth (thrown down to the ground), and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,

"Now is come salvation (rescue), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (His Messiah): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens (you skies), and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth (ground) and of the sea! for the devil (the slanderer) is come down unto you, having great wrath (desperate rage), because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child (Yeshua`). 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six (six hundred sixty-six).

I could go on, but this much will be sufficient. Doesn't it ever bother you when just reading the entire book of Revelation in a single sitting (which I hope you do often) that so much of this is "out of order" when viewed from the perspective of the Pre-tribulational Rapture viewpoint of Eschatology? Drop the preconceived viewpoint and just enjoy the reading as if it were for the first time! Don't add anything to the text, and try to read it from the perspective of Yochanan, a Jew who was given the privilege (and responsibility) of seeing all this with only the background of the Hebrew Scriptures, the teachings of the Messiah, and the Death and Resurrection of the Messiah Yeshua`.

Oh, and by the way, he saw all this being exiled to the island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea south of Greece and west of Turkey, AFTER the dispersion of the Jews by the Roman Empire!

Edited June 1, 2019 by Retrobyter