denominations

[Mike Mclees]

11 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Denominations are unbiblical.

There is one body of Christ in each town or city in which there are born again Christians; but, the members of that one body are usually scattered across various sects and factions, mixed with many unsaved "Christians"; and so we have Churchianity.

There will be no such divisions in heaven, since there is no sin in heaven and denominations exist because of sin.

I beliieve that in that day the church shall be tested. He knows His own and prior to the judgment His true bride will be collected from the four corners of the earth. 

Like your post   God bless

Edited July 15, 2020 by Mike Mclees

[David1701]

17 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

I beliieve that in that day the church shall be tested. He knows His own and prior to the judgment His true bride will be collected from the four corners of the earth. 

Like your post   God bless

Denominations (with their different teachings) are a tool of the enemy (the devil).  It's a little like the multiplication of Bible translations that cast doubt on God's word (Did God really say?) - divide and conquer.  Of course this is not the intention of those within the denominations (unless they are deliberate infiltrators - the Jesuits do this sometimes).

We should be seeking, not ecumenical pseudo-unity between denominations, but to come out of them and unite as the local body of Christ.

God bless.

[Fidei Defensor]

I think denominations are a good thing. It safegaurds against a monolithic church hierarchy and allows the Truth to be preserved if some denoms start falling into error, example the Presybeterian, Lutheran, and Methodist denoms schismed into two halves each over homosexual ordination. Had we all been under the monolithic Romanite Church and it decided to ordain homosexuals, we’d have split and created a seperate denomination.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I think denominations are a good thing. It safegaurds against a monolithic church hierarchy and allows the Truth to be preserved if some denoms start falling into error, example the Presybeterian, Lutheran, and Methodist denoms schismed into two halves each over homosexual ordination. Had we all been under the monolithic Romanite Church and it decided to ordain homosexuals, we’d have split and created a seperate denomination.

So, if there is a choice between obeying the Lord (as a body of believers) and not forming schisms: or forming schisms, in case something goes wrong, you would choose the latter?  Is that right?

Edited July 16, 2020 by David1701

[Fidei Defensor]

12 minutes ago, David1701 said:

So, if there is a choice between obeying the Lord (as a body of believers) and not forming schisms: or forming schisms, in case something goes wrong, you would choose the latter?  Is that right?

I am saying the Lord causes schisms to preserve the universal body of believers from heresies and errors. 

It is possible to be “One Body” and yet “Many Parts.” 

[David1701]

1 minute ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I am saying the Lord causes schisms to preserve the universal body of believers from heresies and errors. 

It is possible to be “One Body” and yet “Many Parts.” 

Please quote where the Bible says that the Lord "causes schisms", thanks.

[Fidei Defensor]

56 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Please quote where the Bible says that the Lord "causes schisms", thanks.

“While Paul and Barnabas were at Antioch of Syria, some men from Judea arrived and began to teach the believers[a]: “Unless you are circumcised as required by the law of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Paul and Barnabas disagreed with them, arguing vehemently. Finally, the church decided to send Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem, accompanied by some local believers, to talk to the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent the delegates to Jerusalem, and they stopped along the way in Phoenicia and Samaria to visit the believers. They told them—much to everyone’s joy—that the Gentiles, too, were being converted. When they arrived in Jerusalem, Barnabas and Paul were welcomed by the whole church, including the apostles and elders. They reported everything God had done through them. But then some of the believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and insisted, “The Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met together to resolve this issue. At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe. God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith. So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers[b] with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?  We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 15:1-1-). 

God caused Paul and Peter to be divided from the Judaizers who wanted to add circumscision to salvation, which is false (see John 3:16-18, Romans 10:9-10, 1 John 4:15, John 6:40, Joyb 10:27-30). 

Had the Judaizers won, the Gentiles would have been kept out of the Church! And we’d be in a false gospel of law and grace (Galatians 1:4-9, 2 Corinthians 11:2-4), when it is by Grace we are saved through faith! (Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 3:9) 

Paul said of the Judaizers: 

“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery. Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love. 

You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth? Such persuasion does not come from the One who calls you. 9A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough. 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is troubling you will bear the judgment, whoever he may be. Now, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to castrate themselves!” (Galatians 5:1-12). 

?Just as the Church broke away and schismed from Judaziers trying to impose the Law (Acts 15:1-11), so The Reformed Churches broke away and schismed out of Romanite Church that had made canon laws that added to the gospel and the teaching of apostles (Acts 2:42). 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[David1701]

32 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

“While Paul and Barnabas were at Antioch of Syria, some men from Judea arrived and began to teach the believers[a]: “Unless you are circumcised as required by the law of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Paul and Barnabas disagreed with them, arguing vehemently. Finally, the church decided to send Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem, accompanied by some local believers, to talk to the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent the delegates to Jerusalem, and they stopped along the way in Phoenicia and Samaria to visit the believers. They told them—much to everyone’s joy—that the Gentiles, too, were being converted. When they arrived in Jerusalem, Barnabas and Paul were welcomed by the whole church, including the apostles and elders. They reported everything God had done through them. But then some of the believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and insisted, “The Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met together to resolve this issue. At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe. God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith. So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers[b] with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear?  We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 15:1-1-). 

God caused Paul and Peter to be divided from the Judaizers who wanted to add circumscision to salvation, which is false (see John 3:16-18, Romans 10:9-10, 1 John 4:15, John 6:40, Joyb 10:27-30). 

Had the Judaizers won, the Gentiles would have been kept out of the Church! And we’d be in a false gospel of law and grace (Galatians 1:4-9, 2 Corinthians 11:2-4), when it is by Grace we are saved through faith! (Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 3:9) 

Paul said of the Judaizers: 

“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery. Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love. 

You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth? Such persuasion does not come from the One who calls you. 9A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough. 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is troubling you will bear the judgment, whoever he may be. Now, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to castrate themselves!” (Galatians 5:1-12). 

?Just as the Church broke away and schismed from Judaziers trying to impose the Law (Acts 15:1-11), so The Reformed Churches broke away and schismed out of Romanite Church that had made canon laws that added to the gospel and the teaching of apostles (Acts 2:42). 

The Reformers leaving Romanism was not a schism (that would be the RC line)!  It was God delivering his people from false religion and returning them to himself and his word.

The separation from Judaisers was not schism within the Church, since Judaisers are not part of the Church (they are heretics).

What I asked you to show (knowing that you cannot) was where God allegedly causes schism WITHIN his body.

Edited July 16, 2020 by David1701

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

The Reformers leaving Romanism was not a schism (that would be the RC line)!  It was God delivering his people from false religion and returning them to himself and his word.

The separation from Judaisers was not schism within the Church, since Judaisers are not part of the Church (they are heretics).

What I asked you to show (knowing that you cannot) was where God allegedly causes schism WITHIN his body.

Schisms are over heresy, The Great Schism (1054 A.D. m) between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism was over theology, specifically The Filioque, “and of the Son,” added to “Thd Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.” The two sides excommunicated (including considering esch other heretical) each other over this. 

Jesus said: 

“51Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division (διαμερισμός, οῦ, ὁ, diamerismos, a division, breaking up; discord, hostility). 52From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” (Luke 12:51-53). I imagine the counter argument to this is Jesus means the division will be over who believes in him or not, however, that is not qualified in the context of the passage and besides schisms are always over the truth of the gospel and teachings of the apostles. The Reformation was a schism, a break and division over the gospel.  Rome said faith with works, Reformed said grace through faith. 

There will always be divisions long as people deviate from the pure and simple gospel (John 3:16-18) and teachings of Scripture. Schisms are divisions, and Jesus promises they are going to be the norm. 

[David1701]

14 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Schisms are over heresy, The Great Schism (1054 A.D. m) between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism was over theology, specifically The Filioque, “and of the Son,” added to “Thd Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.” The two sides excommunicated (including considering esch other heretical) each other over this. 

Jesus said: 

“51Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division (διαμερισμός, οῦ, ὁ, diamerismos, a division, breaking up; discord, hostility). 52From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” (Luke 12:51-53). I imagine the counter argument to this is Jesus means the division will be over who believes in him or not, however, that is not qualified in the context of the passage and besides schisms are always over the truth of the gospel and teachings of the apostles. The Reformation was a schism, a break and division over the gospel.  Rome said faith with works, Reformed said grace through faith. 

There will always be divisions long as people deviate from the pure and simple gospel (John 3:16-18) and teachings of Scripture. Schisms are divisions, and Jesus promises they are going to be the norm. 

The sword that Jesus came to bring is between believers and unbelievers, not between brothers and sisters in Christ, who are told to be of one mind.