Who Is The Archangel Michael ?

[Justin Adams]

4 minutes ago, ShinyGospelShoes said:

Yes, the word (mal'ak, aggelos, angel) only indicates 'office' or 'function', never 'nature'.

Yeshua, the Word, the second Yahweh, the Prince of Peace, the Co-Creator was NEVER an ontological 'angel' but the EXPRESS IMAGE OF THE FATHER. Uncreate, Eternal, UNIQUE and BELOVED of the Father.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Justin Adams

[ShinyGospelShoes]

29 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

The burning bush. Two Yahwehs. Gideon, two Yahwehs. Many other instances. One like the son of man - and in Daniel, 'a human'.

Every person who believes what the scriptures teach, believes in the Deity and eternality of the person/being of the Father, the person/being of the Son [Jesus] and the person/being of the Holy Spirit.

Those who thus believe the scriptures fully agree with every text of scripture which say that there is "One LORD" [Deuteornomy 6:4; Zechariah 14:9; Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB], or "One God" [1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB, which is an expansion of Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29, etc KJB] or other texts such which say there is "no" other "God beside" JEHOVAH Elohiym [Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,8, 45:5,21 KJB].

Those who believe the scripture agree fully with what they teach in that there is no other JEHOVAH Elohiym, but JEHOVAH Elohiym; though some may have a slight misunderstanding of what that specifically entails.  The matter will fall into what the scripture teaches about the persons/beings of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and the word "one".

JEHOVAH [name, character, singular] Elohiym [3 persons, multiple]. At-one-ment. Not a single person, but 3 eternal persons/beings.

Not a three-headed hydra.

Not one person masquerading as three persons.  Not one being with three personalities.  Not two persons pretending to be a third person.  Not two beings with three personalities.

Not a ventriliquist.

There are three persons/beings.  Working in perfect musical harmony, symphony, and in a singular "chord" [thus 'one accord'].  We may see this in Matthew 28:19 KJB:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 28:19 GNT TR - πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

The name of God, represents His character:

Exodus 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Exodus 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

Exodus 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

Exodus 34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

Exodus 34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

Exodus 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

Exodus 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Exodus 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

Connected with His name/HIs glory/His character is in the Ten Commandments, the written transcript of His very perfect character:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The very name [singular], being the character and Glory of God, JEHOVAH, is shared amongst the persons [multiplicity] of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

[the singular name]

“... in the name ...”

[GNT] “... εἰς τὸ ὄνομα ...”

This is singular and definite [article], yet there is seen plurality of persons which all share/have it. Three distinct definite [article] persons to be specific, each joined by the “and” [“kai”] construct:

[1st “person”]

“... of the Father, ...”,

[GNT TR] “... του πατρος ...”

“... and ...”,

[GNT TR] “... και ...”

[2nd “person”]

“... of the Son, ...”,

[GNT TR] “... του υιου ...”

“... and ...”,

[GNT TR] “... και ...”

[3rd “person”]

“... of the Holy Ghost ...”,

[GNT TR] “... του αγιου πνευματος ...”

The doctrine of Godhead, as taught in Matthew 28:19, is revealed all throughout the King James Bible, a small sampling:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 19:24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

[Jesus, the LORD [JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH E/Immanuel] who came down with the two covering cherubs, the two angels that are beside the LORD, is standing upon the earth [Genesis 18-19, especially 18:25 “Judge of all the Earth”] and calling down fire from His Father above, the Holy Spirit being included by the Fire also, for God is a consuming fire, and Sodom and Gomorah are said to have been destroyed by the vengeance of eternal fire, or in other words the vengeance of God]

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

2 Timothy 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Psalms 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

[Jesus [JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH E/Immanuel] speaking not only to David, but God the Father, speaking to the Son also [David being a type pointing to Christ], as seen in the NT, since the whole of Scripture testifies of the the Son [John 5:39]]

Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Psalms 22:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Ephesians  2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Hosea 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

Hosea 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

Hosea 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

I will even cite them from the NWT for the WTS, Jehovah Witnesses reading:

Hosea 1:4-7 NWT - 4 Then Jehovah said to him: “Name him Jezʹre·el,* for in a little while I will hold an accounting against the house of Jeʹhui for the acts of bloodshed of Jezʹre·el, and I will put an end to the royal rule of the house of Israel.j 5  In that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley* of Jezʹre·el.” 6 She conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And He told him: “Name her Lo-ru·haʹmah,* for I will no longer show mercyk to the house of Israel, because I will certainly drive them away.l 7  But I will show mercy to the house of Judah,m and I will save them by Jehovah their God;n I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”o - [NWT]

Sidenote: In the NWT reference 'bible', in vs 6, "He*"  "*He - Jehovah."

The Hebrew OT:

Hosea 1:4 HOT - ויאמר יהוה אליו קרא שׁמו יזרעאל כי־עוד מעט ופקדתי את־דמי יזרעאל על־בית יהוא והשׁבתי ממלכות בית ישׂראל׃

Hosea 1:5 HOT - והיה ביום ההוא ושׁברתי את־קשׁת ישׂראל בעמק יזרעאל׃

Hosea 1:6 HOT - ותהר עוד ותלד בת ויאמר לו קרא שׁמה לא רחמה כי לא אוסיף עוד ארחם את־בית ישׂראל כי־נשׂא אשׂא להם׃

Hosea 1:7 HOT - ואת־בית יהודה ארחם והושׁעתים ביהוה אלהיהם ולא אושׁיעם בקשׁת ובחרב ובמלחמה בסוסים ובפרשׁים׃

The Hebrew OT Translit.:

 

Hosea 1:4 HOT Translit. - waYomer y'hwäh ëläyw q'rä sh'mô yiz'r'el Kiy-ôd m'a† ûfäqad'Tiy et-D'mëy yiz'r'el al-Bëyt yëhû w'hish'BaTiy mam'l'khût Bëyt yis'räël

Hosea 1:5 HOT Translit. - w'häyäh BaYôm hahû w'shävar'Tiy et-qeshet yis'räël B'ëmeq yiz'r'el

Hosea 1:6 HOT Translit. - waTahar ôd waTëled Bat waYomer lô q'rä sh'mäH lo ruchämäh Kiy lo ôšiyf ôd árachëm et-Bëyt yis'räël Kiy-näso eSä lähem

Hosea 1:7 HOT Translit. - w'et-Bëyt y'hûdäh árachëm w'hôsha'Tiym Bayhwäh élohëyhem w'lo ôshiyëm B'qeshet ûv'cherev ûv'mil'chämäh B'šûšiym ûv'färäshiym

LXX [*so-called] -

Hosea 1:4 LXX* - καὶ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς αὐτόν Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ιεζραελ, διότι ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ἐκδικήσω τὸ αἷμα τοῦ Ιεζραελ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ιου καὶ καταπαύσω βασιλείαν οἴκου Ισραηλ·

Hosea 1:5 LXX* - ἔσται ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ συντρίψω τὸ τόξον τοῦ Ισραηλ ἐν τῇ κοιλάδι τοῦ Ιεζραελ. --

Hosea 1:6 LXX* - καὶ συνέλαβεν ἔτι καὶ ἔτεκεν θυγατέρα. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς Οὐκ--ἠλεημένη, διότι οὐ μὴ προσθήσω ἔτι ἐλεῆσαι τὸν οἶκον τοῦ Ισραηλ, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ ἀντιτασσόμενος ἀντιτάξομαι αὐτοῖς.

Hosea 1:7 LXX* - τοὺς δὲ υἱοὺς Ιουδα ἐλεήσω καὶ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν κυρίῳ θεῷ αὐτῶν καὶ οὐ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν τόξῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ οὐδὲ ἐν πολέμῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ἅρμασιν οὐδὲ ἐν ἵπποις οὐδὲ ἐν ἱππεῦσιν. --

How many JEHOVAH are in those verses [4,6,7] for our WTS/JW & unitarian & Muslim friends?

JEHOVAH said, "... I ["JEHOVAH ... God", vs. 4,6] will save them by JEHOVAH their God [vs. 7], ..."

[ShinyGospelShoes]

13 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

ontological 'angel'

Please use common words that the others might follow.  I never stated in any location that the Son was like unto (in nature) Gabriel or Lucifer.  As it is written:

Heb 2:16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Even as you already agree the word "angel" means "messenger", an office, or function, never nature.

The issue is who is Michael, and what is His nature.

We know from scripture, that Michael is "the archangel", which signifies His "ruling office as highest messenger of the Father", and even "leader/ruler over his "fellows" (messengers)".  Since the word "angel" does not ever denote nature, but only office, then the word itself cannot be used to say that Michael is an 'ontological angel' (ie a created being of the celestial host as Gabriel or Lucifer, etc) based solely upon the word.  Further context would dictate whether Michael is or is not such.  This is the point of the materials shared already.

Edited August 30, 2019 by ShinyGospelShoes

[ShinyGospelShoes]

4 hours ago, George said:

And this is connected to Michael ... how? 

We are getting there, but first I would have you admit what you stated.

You and I both acknowledge that the Person of the Son in the OT is identified as (in many places) "the Angel of the LORD", yes? (please answer)

Then we can move to the next step, and ask the question, allowing for the affirmative in the question previous, Is the Son the ruler over other messengers, or ruler/chief over the created angelic hosts?  The question which follows that then, is the Son the highest Messenger of the Father?  Once we establish the answers to those questions, we can then identify the word in scripture which identifies such offices.

Then from there, we move to the next step, but we are not there yet, until you admit the first step in open.

Edited August 30, 2019 by ShinyGospelShoes

[ShinyGospelShoes]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Sons of God ALWAYS refers to Heavenly Council member. Always.

Again, not so, and I cited many texts which demonstrated it.  Please do not derail the thread from the OP (Michael).  Start a new thread please after you read the texts I cited:

Joh_1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 1:12  והמקבלים אתו המאמינים בשמו נתן־עז למו להיות בנים לאלהים׃

Rom_8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:14  כי־כל אשר רוח אלהים ינהגם בני אלהים המה׃

1Jn_3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jn 3:2  ידידי עתה בנים לאלהים אנחנו ועוד לא נגלה מה־נהיה אבל ידענו כי בהגלותו נהיה דמים־לו כי נראהו כמו שהוא׃

Gen 6:2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:2  ויראו בני־האלהים את־בנות האדם כי טבת הנה ויקחו להם נשׁים מכל אשׁר בחרו׃

Gen 6:2 waYir'û v'nëy-häélohiym et-B'nôt häädäm Kiy †ovot hëNäh waYiq'chû lähem näshiym miKol ásher Bächärû

Gen 6:2  ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὅτι καλαί εἰσιν, ἔλαβον ἑαυτοῖς γυναῖκας ἀπὸ πασῶν, ὧν ἐξελέξαντο .

Gen 6:4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Gen 6:4  הנפלים היו בארץ בימים ההם וגם אחרי־כן אשׁר יבאו בני האלהים אל־בנות האדם וילדו להם המה הגברים אשׁר מעולם אנשׁי השׁם׃

Gen 6:4 haN'filiym häyû vääretz BaYämiym hähëm w'gam achárëy-khën ásher yävoû B'nëy häélohiym el-B'nôt häädäm w'yäl'dû lähem hëMäh haGiBoriym ásher mëôläm an'shëy haSHëm f

Gen 6:4  οἱ δὲ γίγαντες ἦσαν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ἐκείναις καὶ μετ᾿ ἐκεῖνο, ὡς ἂν εἰσεπορεύοντο οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ πρὸς τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ ἐγεννῶσαν ἑαυτοῖς· ἐκεῖνοι ἦσαν οἱ γίγαντες οἱ ἀπ᾿ αἰῶνος, οἱ ἄνθρωποι οἱ ὀνομαστοί.

Even in the so called LXX it doesn't use the word "aggelos" (angels), it uses "[h]uioi" (sons).

In all it is the exact same phrase.  See Deuteronomy 14:1, etc unless you need me to cite it for you in each of the languages and highlight it?  it says the same essentially, "Bäniym aTem layhwäh élohëykhem" and that refers directly to the children of Israel (human terestrial kind, not angelic celestial kind).

See also Hosea 1:10 as it also essentially says the same, "B'nëy ël-chäy" (sons of the living (God)), also referring to the children of Israel and Romans 9:26 is directly citing this verse, "the children (ie sons) of the living God".

For more on who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6:2,4 please see Luke 3:38; Genesis 4:26, etc., and for the daughters of men, see Genesis 4:16-24.

See also the following for “sons”, “children”, “father” of the good, etc:

Genesis 6:2,4; Deuteronomy 14:1; 2 Samuel 7:14; Isaiah 8:18, 9:6, 63:16, 64:8; Hosea 1:10; Matthew 5:9,45 6:9; Luke 3:38, 6:35,36, 11:2, 20:26; John 1:12, 11:52, 12:36; Romans 1:7, 8:14,16,17,19,21, 9:8, 9:26 [citing Hosea 1:10]; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2, 6:18; Galatians 1:4, 3:26, 4:6,7; Ephesians 5:1; Philippians 1:2, 2:15, 4:20; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 3:11,13; 2 Thessalonians 1:1,2, 2:16; Titus 1:4; Philemon 1:3; Hebrews 2:10,13 [citing Isaiah 8:18], 12:7,9; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 1:3, 3:1,2, 5:2.

See also the following for the “sons”, “children”, “father” of the evil, etc.:

Genesis 3:15; Matthew 13:38; John 8:42,44; Acts 13:10; Romans 6:16, 9:8; Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6; Hebrews 12:8; 1 Peter 3:19 [compare to Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6,7, 61:1; Luke 4:18 KJB], 3:20; 1 John 3:8,10,12, 4:4,5,6,7,8.

[ShinyGospelShoes]

4 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Christians Don't honor Jesus as a messenger,

Really?

Joh_17:14  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Heb 1:1  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb_3:1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:1 is chiastic.

Edited August 30, 2019 by ShinyGospelShoes

[ShinyGospelShoes]

5 minutes ago, nzkev said:

Seams like a lot of trying to sperate Jesus from God going on

Not at all.  Go back and read the thread from the beginning and read each post as I have.

[ShinyGospelShoes]

6 minutes ago, nzkev said:

co creator

I disagree with you here.  The person of the Father, the person of the Son and the person of the Holy Ghost are all Creators (thus co creator in their Persons) (and there is even OT texts which I can cite which says literally in Hebrew "Makers" (plural.), see Ecclesiastes 12:1 HOT & so-called LXX), thus the phrase "Let us make ..."

“Remember thy Creator in the days of thy youth,” is literally, “Remember thy Creators.” Again, “None saith, Where is God my Maker?” is in the Hebrew, “God my Makers.” So again, “Let Israel rejoice in him that made him,” is, in the Hebrew, “in his Makers.” And so again in the Proverbs, “The knowledge of the Holy Ones is understanding.” So again where the prophet says, “Thy Maker is thy husband,” both words are plural in the Hebrew. Many other passages of Scripture have precisely the same peculiarity.

Revelation 4 speaks of the person of the Father (Jesus is not in view in chapter 4, only appears in chapter 5) (See also Gen. 1 in which "God said" (Father speaking to the Son as Proverbs 8 and other NT texts reveals):

Rev 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou (context, the Father) hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The Son (see also Gen. 1 in which it says "God made"):

John 1:1-3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:1-3, etc.

The Holy Ghost (see also Gen 1, in which the Spirit "moved" and "saw (witnessed)" being part of the act of Creation):

Job 33:4  The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

[ShinyGospelShoes]

8 minutes ago, nzkev said:

That is all you pick up on from everything I said,I thought it was clear in the context I meant he is not just merely a messenger, to me thats playing semantics

You stated in the definitive, "Christians Don't honor Jesus as a messenger  ...", not in the merely.  There was no where in your response which stated that we also know and honour Jesus as Messenger.  You even have the word "Don't" capitalized.  That's what is called a definitive, without exception.

Edited August 30, 2019 by ShinyGospelShoes

[ShinyGospelShoes]

5 minutes ago, nzkev said:

 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That verse just proved what I stated.  "without him (Jesus/Word) was not anything made that was made", which means Jesus made/created "with" the Father (at minimum, in John 1:1-3).

See also:

1Co_8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Edited August 30, 2019 by ShinyGospelShoes