JoeT Posted December 21, 2019 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2019 37 minutes ago, Hobie_ said: Did I read correctly, the Pope is denying Hell? I came across this exchange between the Pope and the media.. "Your Holiness, in our previous meeting you told me that our species will disappear in a certain moment and that God, still out of his creative force, will create new species. You have never spoken to me about the souls who died in sin and will go to hell to suffer it for eternity. You have however spoken to me of good souls, admitted to the contemplation of God. But what about bad souls? Where are they punished? “They are not punished, those who repent obtain the forgiveness of God and enter the rank of souls who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”..... Is this really what the Pope said. Anybody have more on this? Sorry you were duped! “What is reported by the author in today’s article is the result of his reconstruction, in which the literal words pronounced by the Pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.” What does that have to do with purgatory? JoeT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeT Posted December 21, 2019 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: Anybody who entertains even the “ IDEA” of Purgatory shows an abysmal understanding of what Christianity is. It spits on the Blood Of Jesus Christ.This Damnable Doctrine was conjured up in Hell itself.....It is so UnBiblical , and obviously so to a Born Again Christian. It is so stupid and silly even Satan can’t believe people bought it! He’d love to top this Blasphemy of the Blood Of Christ . He can’t. I'm glad you're so defensive of Christ, not wanting to spit on the Blood of Christ and all. But, you don't explain why it is spittle. How is purgatory an a front to Christ? Is it that once saved you cannot sin afterwards? Or, is it that Christ will forgive sins past present and future and corruption is received in heaven without perfection? 7 hours ago, missmuffet said: Purgatory is not biblical. There is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Not withstanding your opinions, while not expressed as the word 'purgatory' in Scripture, you should be finding the perfection of souls entering heaven as Pope John Paul II explained above. If not then ask am I 'therefore perfect, as also the heavenly Father is perfect.' [Cf. Matthew 5:48] JoeT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted December 21, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.86 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, JoeT said: I'm glad you're so defensive of Christ, not wanting to spit on the Blood of Christ and all. But, you don't explain why it is spittle. How is purgatory an a front to Christ? Is it that once saved you cannot sin afterwards? Or, is it that Christ will forgive sins past present and future and corruption is received in heaven without perfection? Not withstanding your opinions, while not expressed as the word 'purgatory' in Scripture, you should be finding the perfection of souls entering heaven as Pope John Paul II explained above. If not then ask am I 'therefore perfect, as also the heavenly Father is perfect.' [Cf. Matthew 5:48] JoeT To start out with the earliest Scripture that makes the point that Purgatory is a damnable Lie Of Satan.... If Purgatory is real.....John the Baptist is a Liar and a Fool..... “ Behold the Lamb Of God, Who TAKETH AWAY the sins of the WORLD....” There Is MUCH more.....I am not going to waste my time . Somebody else take over here . If one believes in Purgatory they have NO understanding of what the Shed Blood Of Christ Jesus accomplished at the Cross and chances are they will never understand . To suggest the Blood Of Jesus was not valuable enough to buy up all the sins of the World— It was powerful , but darn it, it just couldn’t get the job of Salvation done-We must help Him out ! Jesus deserves ALL the Glory .....He demands All the Glory.... and if one does not understand WHY He “DESERVES” ALL THE GLORY ......one does not even belong in Christianity 101.....Sorry.You are not the first to be mislead by damnable Catholic Doctrine.....I wonder how many people are in Hell today because people did not think they needed aSavior. Who needs a Savior from sin when you can pay it off on your own? It makes me sick. Jesus too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted December 21, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.86 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Hobie_ said: "Your Holiness “ Your HOLINESS ?” Really? People mouth these Blasphemies so often, they don’t even pay attention to what they are saying . Excuse me while I go vomit.Not trying to bash poor Catholics......the Methodist Church I was raised in called our Preachers, “ Reverend”...... just as sickening.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted December 21, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,992 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,690 Content Per Day: 11.78 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, JoeT said: I'm glad you're so defensive of Christ, not wanting to spit on the Blood of Christ and all. But, you don't explain why it is spittle. How is purgatory an a front to Christ? Is it that once saved you cannot sin afterwards? Or, is it that Christ will forgive sins past present and future and corruption is received in heaven without perfection? Not withstanding your opinions, while not expressed as the word 'purgatory' in Scripture, you should be finding the perfection of souls entering heaven as Pope John Paul II explained above. If not then ask am I 'therefore perfect, as also the heavenly Father is perfect.' [Cf. Matthew 5:48] JoeT You must be Catholic. This is what the Bible has to say about purgatory. Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not! Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation. The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, silver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.” Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified. The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin or sins committed before salvation is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must, in order to be saved, pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, then Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice. For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified. https://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html Edited December 21, 2019 by missmuffet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeT Posted December 21, 2019 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 21, 2019 3 hours ago, FresnoJoe said: My Papa Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Matthew 23:9 (World English Bible) Poor Pope~! It Is All About Love “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48 (New International Version) Poor Pope~! Love, Joe As your enemy, then you must love the Pope even if he is called the "Holy Father", right? JoeT 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeT Posted December 21, 2019 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Cletus said: because you have spot and blemishes... unlike the Lamb Of God, without spot or blemish... according to Gods law. Isn't that the point. How does darkness enter the light? How does corruption live eternally? If there is one drop of poison in a pitcher of water does it not cause death to the whole pitcher? The point of purgatory is that is a state in which the slightest imperfection is cleaned away. Such a cleansing could be refreshing and enjoyable or it could be quite uncomfortable. He says, "Therefore be perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." [Matthew 5:43-48]. Are you that perfect? JoeT 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeT Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2019 4 hours ago, missmuffet said: I think it would be best to not listen to the false doctrine and teachers of the Catholic Church and start reading the Bible literally. You really are missing a lot of very important words that God wants you to see. 7 hours ago, Alive said: Purgatory was a money making device for Rome...a very sick and evil leverage. 7 hours ago, Cletus said: lets be real clear here. the roman catholic doctrine of purgatory is taught nowhere in scripture. Jesus nor the apostles taught it. it is nowhere in the bible. Purgatory denies the sufficiency of Christs death. Also your comments on dying with sin and going to purgatory can be done away with by this passage: . . . purgatory is a doctrine of false hope. Jesus Christ is our hope, our only hope. If your hope is in a place called purgatory, and that you can go there because you didnt prepare yourself as a bride for her Groom here and now and still make it... you will be sorely displeased. in the parable about the 10 virgins. 5 were wise. five were foolish. the fools had the door shut to them and Jesus would not open the door unto them. Jesus didnt say not yet, go ye now to purgatory and await the cleansing and then come unto me.... nope. Jesus told them I know you not. Forget purgatory as its a false teaching. It is true, the word "purgatory" does not appear in Scripture, but purgatory itself is shown to exist in Sacred Scripture. “Justice is uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Continuing he said, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. The will is contained in the intellect of man, thus ‘to will’ something is an act or by the definition of some, “work”. Adam stood before God as a just man created with a soul that was ‘perfectly’ joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God, overflowing with the knowledge of truth; the intellect functioned in the light of God's will disciplining the lower appetites through reason alone. Adam was just, ‘right with God’, “righteous”. However, because of Adam’s unjust act we now bear the guilt and punishment for the sin of this one man, the deprivation of justice. Adam's original justice was a prevailing moral quality or habit that perfectly joined Adam’s will to an enlightened understanding of the will of God. The state of being just inexplicably joined other cardinal virtues giving the rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. Prior to his original act of rebellion, Adam 'abided' in God. This abiding is much like our invitation to abide in Christ when partaking in the Eucharist. [Cf. John 6:57]. Christ renews us. The punishment of original sin Adam’s progeny is inherited deprivation of original justice. All men inherit this one man’s sin, both guilt and punishment, being a part of the family of homo sapiens which is completely forgiven along with our own actual sins in Baptism. Justification then is the lifelong movement from being unjust to perfection of justice. As our desires remain disordered we sometimes continue in sin. While Adam and Eve did repent of their sin the punishment remains, death both physical and spiritual. Adam was deprived of being in a just state, the punishment of spiritual death. Through His sacrifice Jesus Christ brings to us and the rite of Baptism, a state going from unjust to perfect in justice. We observe then that the forgiveness of sin is one aspect of atonement and that punishment is another aspect. Although we are absolved of our sins there is still the matter of punishment. One imperfection is unbelief or a weak faith. This is patently obvious when Moses and Aaron were incredulous that God would lead them to the Promised Land, Moses was left behind [Cf. Numbers 20:12] as punishment. Likewise, King David sinned yet confessed, while forgiven there remained a temporal punishment, the death of his young son. Consequently, though we might atone for sins, that confession may (sometimes not) have punishment associated with the transgression. Accordingly, we hear Christ say, “Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." [Matthew 5:26]. And, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [Matthew 5:48]. While hampered with the human condition of disordered desire this would seem to be a herculean act. With purification of purgatory what isn’t completed on earth can be made perfect by Christ. We are handed over to prison [purgatory] until every last mite is paid [Cf. Matthew 5:26; 18:34; Luke 12:58] In Luke we hear Christ describe His human vision of purgatory (one understood by mortals) where between the beggar and the rich man is a great chasm of chaos. The beggar in the bosom of Abraham receiving comfort from his hard life while the rich man in purgatory thirsting in purgatory for his uncharitable life. And then again, on the cross we hear the repentant thief given passage to paradeisos. Properly translated as ‘paradise’ but a paradise that was a different location other than heaven. Paradise considered a realm of the righteous dead, sheol. According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon this paradise is “that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f;” otherwise known today as "purgatory". We find then that purgatory can be a state of punishment or a pleasant place waiting for the resurrection of those who abide in Christ. JoeT 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeT Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Catholic Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 55 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Alive said: Purgatory was a money making device for Rome...a very sick and evil leverage. Is this hearsay? If not maybe you can enlighten us as to how much Rome has made from the "purgatory devise". Tell us how it worked. JoeT Edited December 22, 2019 by JoeT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 195 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.51 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 22, 2019 53 minutes ago, JoeT said: Is this hearsay? If not maybe you can enlighten us as to how much Rome has made from the "purgatory devise". Tell us how it worked. JoeT It seems that you aren't aware of church history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts