Jesus Christ "parousia."

[charlesj]

Remember this as you read the bible: 

“When you read the bible, you are reading someone else’s mail.” Preacher …W.L. Wharton (1914-2002 died at 94 years old.  Started preaching at 18 years old the gospel of our Lord and died at 94 still teaching and preaching and excited about the Lord.)

I am going to quote (below) a chapter from “Russell, J. Stuart from his book:  “The Parousia: A Critical Inquiry into the New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Second Coming.” 

Stuart talks about the Greek word “parousia” which means “presence.”  Nowhere in the bible will you find “second coming,” but you will find “coming in clouds” (Parousia).  This is Hebrew “judgement language.”  We with our “Western minds” miss this language.  Many teachers and preachers use "second coming" in their preaching when the scripture context is speaking of Christ's "parousia."  Christ NEVER CAME BACK TO EARTH A SECOND TIME NOR WILL EVER COME BACK to earth a second time.  If you read this writing you will see that Christ did come "in the clouds," His parousia. 

John the Baptist is foretelling what Jesus is going to do, (Matt 3:7-12) very soon, to the nation of Israel.  If you read Matthew 24 and the synoptic gospels (Mark 13:1-33; Luke 17:20-37 & Luke 21:5-36) you will find Jesus warning the Jewish nation of their destruction coming soon.  His prophecy was fulfilled about 40 years after Christ went back to the Father in 70 A.D.  This is when the “end of the age ended” and the Law of Moses vanished.  The “end of the age” was the end of the Law of Moses.  From that point on, a new age, the New Covenant was established.

This Greek word “Parousia” is used 24 times throughout the New Testament by the apostles and ALL POINTED TO 70 A.D. If you read the writings of the apostles (And the author of the Book of Hebrews) you will see “the last days” or the “last hour” these references are looking to the “parousia” (presence) of Christ when He destroyed the Nation of Israel.  Just remember as you are reading, this “coming in clouds”  

(Parousia) of Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem was on the apostles of Christ minds ALL THE TIME!  We with our “western minds” see “coming in clouds” as something different than the Hebrew (Jewish) mind.  The KJV bible has led many astray in Matthew 24:3 when it says, “…And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” KJV 

For the students of the bible, look at the Koine Greek word that KJV in Matt 24:3 translated “world.”  It is the Greek word “αἰών (aion)” which means “AGE.”  The age Jesus was in was ending, the “Old Covenant age.”  Jesus was born under the Old Covenant age (The Law of Moses) and it was fixing to end.  Jesus and His apostles kept the Law of Moses, kept the Sabbath, all the feast days of the Old Testament and all 613 commandments of the Old Covenant. 

Matthew tells us “…“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” (New American Standard)  The KJV uses “world or world to come”… I don’t know why the KJV translated it this as “world”  The Greek for world is  “KOSMOS.”  IN Mathew 24:3 the Greek word is “aion” which means age.  Just remember as you are reading Matthew, Mark, Luke & John the age they were writing, that age was ending.  There are TWO ages mentioned, the age that was (Old Covenant age) and the "age to come." 

Those speaks against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in Jesus age, the Old Covenant age, or the (age to come) New Covenant age, the age we are in. (Matt 12:31, 32)

The Old Covenant age ended in 70 A.D. when Jesus “coming in clouds” destroyed Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish genealogies.   There is not a Jew today that can tell you from what tribe they come from because Christ made sure that no Aaronic priesthood could ever again exist.  According to Josephus, God destroyed 1,100,000 Jews in 70 A.D. and took thousands captive as slaves by the Roman Army.  (In 70 A.D. it was Christ’s “Parousia” His presence and He used General Titus to as a tool to destroy Jerusalem.)

The ONLY priesthood that exists today is from the tribe of Judah, Jesus Christ from the tribe of Juday is the ONLY High Priest of God.

The apostles were there (The apostles saw and heard what Jesus said in the synoptic gospels Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13:1-33; Luke 17:20-37 & Luke 21:5-36) when Jesus prophesied (around 30 A.D.) the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, the nation and its genealogies. Jesus's prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Remember, the apostles was there when Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem and this was on the mind of the apostles as they lived out their lives and taught the people (and also on the apostle Paul’s mind)

 When the apostles went throughout their area, from Matthew to the book of Revelation, they warned the people of that area of the coming destruction and not to fear for all those who believe in Jesus would be safe. 

The apostle John in the Revelation tells those in the seven churches of the impending destruction of Jerusalem in detail.  He began the Revelation of Jesus and tells them (Rev 1:1) “…this MUST happen shortly… (The Greek word here is “τάχος tacos” when means “at your elbow.”  THE TIMING IS THAT CLOSE AT YOUR ELBOW!”)  And then in verse 3 John tells his audience the “time is near.”  John gives the Revelation and then in the last chapter, Rev 22:6 & 10 he repeats that fact that this must take place “shortly” (v.6) & the “time is near. (v.10)”  After a very short time, this prophecy by Jesus was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

The Roman Empire was a reality until 476 A.D.  Some teach the Book of Revelation is about the destruction of Rome in 476 and some even teach and preach it is for our day 2100 years later!  If it is 476 years later of 2100 years later, HOW CAN THE HOLY SPIRIT SAY IN REVELATION 1:1 “…this must take place shortly” (“at your elbow)… or “the time is near.” 

No, this ALL HAPPENED SHORTLY, 70 A.D.!!  Most of the apostles were killed by 68 A.D. and John was the last apostle alive and wrote the Book of Revelation sometime before 70 A.D and detailed the destruction of Jerusalem.

Most “scholars” (who say they are scholars) will tell you Revelation was written around 95 A.D.  NOT TRUE!

 

I WILL QUOTE BELOW FROM THE BOOK:  The Parousia: A Critical Inquiry into the New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Second Coming.” By James Stuart Russell

THE PAROUSIA PREDICTED BY JOHN THE BAPTIST

"There is nothing more distinctly affirmed in the New Testament than the identity of John the Baptist with the wilderness-herald of Isaiah and the Elijah of Malachi. How well the description of John agrees with that of Elijah is evident at a glance. Each was austere and ascetic in his manner of life; each was a zealous reformer of religion; each was a stern reprove of sin.

The times in which they lived were singularly alike. The nation at both periods was degenerate and corrupt.  Elijah had his Ahab, John his Herod. It is no objection to this identification of John as the predicted Elijah, that the Baptist himself disclaimed the name when the priests and Levites from Jerusalem demanded: ‘Art thou Elias?’ (John 1: 21.)

The Jews expected the reappearance of the literal Elijah, and John’s reply was addressed to that mistaken opinion. But his true claim to the designation is expressly affirmed in the announcement made by the angel to his father Zacharias: ‘He shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias’ (Luke 1: 17); as well as by the declarations of our Lord: ‘If ye will receive it, this is Elias which was for to come’ (Matt. 11: 14); ‘I say unto you that Elias is come already, and they knew him not…

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist’ (Matt. 17: 10-13). John was the second Elias, and exhaustively fulfilled the predictions of Isaiah and Malachi concerning him. To dream of an ‘Elijah of the future,’ therefore, is virtually to discredit the express statement of the word of God, and rests upon no Scripture warrant whatever.

We have already adverted to the twofold aspect of the mission of John presented by the prophets Isaiah and Malachi. The same diversity is seen in the New Testament descriptions of the second Elias. The benignant aspect of his mission which is presented by Isaiah, is also recognized in the words of the angel by whom his birth was foretold, as already quoted; and in the inspired utterance of his father Zacharias: ‘Thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest, for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins’ (Luke 1: 76, 77).

We find the same gracious aspect in the opening verses of the Gospel of St. John: ‘The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light that all men through him might believe’ (John 1: 7). 

But the other aspect of his mission is no less distinctly recognized in the Gospels. He is represented, not only as the herald of the coming Savior, but of the coming Judge.

Indeed, his own recorded utterances speak far more of wrath than of salvation, and are conceived more in the spirit of the Elijah of Malachi, than of the wilderness-herald of Isaiah.

John warns the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the multitudes that crowded to his baptism, to ‘flee from the coming wrath.’ He tells them that ‘the axe is laid unto the root of the trees.’ He announces the coming of One mightier than himself, ‘whose fan is in his hand, and who will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner, but who will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire’ (Matt. 3: 12). ( Took place in 70 A.D., added my me, cj.)

It is impossible not to be struck with the correspondence between the language of the Baptist and that of Malachi.

As Hengstenberg observes:

‘The prophecy of Malachi is throughout the text upon which John comments.’ In both, the coming of the Lord is described as a day of wrath; both speak of His coming with fire to purify and try, with fire to burn and consume. Both speak of a time of discrimination and separation between the righteous and the wicked, the gold and the dross, the wheat and the chaff; and both speak of the utter destruction of the chaff, or stubble, with unquenchable fire. These are not fortuitous resemblances: the two predictions are the counterpart one of the other, and can only refer to the self-same event, the same ‘day of the Lord,’ the same coming judgment. But what more especially deserves remark is the evident nearness of the crisis which John predicts. ‘The wrath to come’ is a very inadequate rendering of the language of the prophet.  It should be ‘the coming wrath;’ that is, not merely future, but impending. ‘The wrath to come’ may be indefinitely distant, but ‘the coming wrath’ is imminent. As Alford justly remarks: ‘John is now speaking in the true character of a prophet foretelling the wrath soon to be poured on the Jewish nation,’ So with the other representations in the address of the Baptist; all is indicative of the swift approach of destruction. ‘Already the axe was lying at the root of the trees.’ The ‘winnowing shovel’ was actually in the hands of the Husbandman; the sifting process was about to begin. These warnings of John the Baptist are not the vague and indefinite exhortations to repentance, addressed to men in all ages, which they are sometimes assumed to be; they are urgent, burning words, having a specific and present bearing upon the then existing generation, the living men to whom he brought the message of God.

The Jewish nation was now upon its last trial; the second Elijah had come as the precursor of ‘the great and dreadful day of the Lord:’ if they rejected his warnings, the doom predicted by Malachi would surely and speedily follow; ‘I will come and smite the land with the curse.’ Nothing can be more obvious than that the catastrophe to which John alludes is particular, national, local, and imminent, and history tells us that within the period of the generation that listened to his warning cry, ‘the wrath came upon them to the uttermost.’”

Russell, J. Stuart. The Parousia: A Critical Inquiry into the New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Second Coming (Kindle Locations 210-214).  . Kindle Edition.

 

 

Many of those reading this will NOT ACCEPT this as truth.  One of the reasons is because they have believed a lie so long as the lie is a truth to them.  All I ask is to open your hearts and eyes and examine the Scriptures.  “The SUM of thy Word is Truth…” (Psalms 119:160)  ("When you tell a LIE long enough, it becomes truth," Hitler said this.)

Many in this group believe as I did in 1970 when I was 30 years old.  I have studied His Word for many years, been to Bible College, and have grown in His Word.  God's Word has changed my beliefs on eschatology. 

God’s Word is like you living all your life and taking a bucket and dipping it into the ocean and trying to drain it. At the end of your life you look at the ocean and see that you have not even touched it.  It is the same with God’s Word, you can study ALL YOUR LIFE, and like the ocean, you have not even touched it there is SO MUCH MORE TO LEARN.  The Lord loves you and wants US to grow with Him and His Word.

Question:  To go along with this study, what do you think about Isaiah 13:10

“For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.”

Answer:  The Lord is speaking here in Isa 13:10 of the destruction of Babylon.  He used an army (clouds) to do His will.

Question, How about: Isaiah 19:1  KJV Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

 Answer:  Here again, In Isaiah 19:1ff the Lord is speaking of “riding a swift cloud” to destroy Egypt.  An army fulfilled this.   The point is, that the Lord, in prophetic speech, speaks of “coming in the clouds, or riding a swift cloud” when really He is speaking of using a nations army to destroy another nation.  

When you see “coming in clouds,” sun darkened, moon will not give light and stars falling from heaven this is judgement language.  In Matthew 24 you see this phrase of the sun, moon and stars (Matthew 24:29) and this is speaking of the falling of the nation of Israel.  The “stars” are its leaders, the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, priests etc.

For those who have open hearts, not to argue, but to learn, email me, I have studied this for over 49 years.  I am Charles.  cjemeyson@satx.rr.com

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by charlesj

[missmuffet]

The coming of the Lord. First the rapture of the Church and then the second coming.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, charlesj said:

Christ NEVER CAME BACK TO EARTH A SECOND TIME NOR WILL EVER COME BACK to earth a second time.

So then when did this happen?

" On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south"

Or any of Zech 14?

If the Lord is not on earth how does this happen?

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."

Or when did the above occur?

 

[charlesj]

AUTHORITY IN THE BIBLE

GOD HAS INHERENT AUTHORITY

 

•         Let’s start at the beginning, If you look at Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

•         Psalms 24:1: The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;

•          Who do you see here as the “owner”? GOD has ALL  AUTHORITY! He has made it all, He owns everything.

 

 God delegated AUTHORITY to His Son, Jesus Christ

 •    John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

•    Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them (apostles) and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

 Jesus delegated AUTHORITY to His apostles:

 •    John 13:20   I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me." 

  (Jesus here, is talking about the one’s He sent, His apostles)

•     John 20:21 Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” (Apostles)

 The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles

 Again, Jesus was talking to His apostles and said:

•    John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father  will send in my name, will teach you (apostles) all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 (Jesus speaking to His apostles)

•    John 16:12-15 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.  All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.”

 •    1 Corinthians 2:10-13 “but God has revealed it to us (apostles) by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.  For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.  We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.”

 The apostles wrote the New Testament:
(by the Spirit of God)

 With the exception of the Book of Revelation, the N.T. books were written by the apostles by the Spirit of God.  The Revelation was signified unto John by the angel of Jesus Christ (1:1)

 •    Ephesians 3:1-5   For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--  Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,  that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.  In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.

 We are not to “add to” nor “take away” from the written Word:

 •    Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.  And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

 •    Galatians 1:8-9 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”

 •    1 Corinthians 4:6 “Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.”

 In the Bible, God told us “everything He is going to tell us”!:

 PAUL SPEAKS HERE OF “FAITH”…

•    Faith - Galatians 1:11-24 “I want you to know, brothers that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth {Or from my mother's womb} and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles-- only James, the Lord's brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."

 •    “Once for all”  -Hebrews 9:26-28 “Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.  Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

 God has given “All things Pertaining to Life and Godliness”

 § 2 Peter 1:3-4  “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”

 •    Peter maintains that the Bible doesn’t claim to teach us everything on every subject, but it does claim to teach us everything we need to know on every subject to please God.

•    Everything we need to have true life and please God is revealed in the Bible!

•    This is precisely why God does not want us to tamper with the Bible.

 Summary:

 •    God has all authority.  He has delegated ALL Authority to his Son. 

•    His Son delegated Authority to His Apostles.  The apostles have the same authority as Christ.

•    Through the Holy Spirit, the apostle’s have written the Word through “Epistles.” (Letters)  and these letters have been put into book form. (We call it the “Bible”)

 

•    Through the terms of the New Covenant we know:

    -how to worship God,

    -how to be obedient,

    -how to be saved,

    -the government of the church

    -and how to live our lives as a Christian.

                           GOD

                                  \

            MAN           JESUS

                |                    \

   MAN’S WORDS       APOSTLES

    (No authority)            \

                                      BIBLE

(Apostles wrote Bible by Holy Spirit)

 

 

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, charlesj said:

Christ NEVER CAME BACK TO EARTH A SECOND TIME NOR WILL EVER COME BACK to earth a second time.

 

Hi charlesj,

 "he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”....Heb 9:28

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.".........Acts 1:11

[charlesj]

10 hours ago, Diaste said:

So then when did this happen?

" On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south"

Or any of Zech 14?

If the Lord is not on earth how does this happen?

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."

Or when did the above occur?

 

Hello Diaste:

Sorry I did not respond until now.  My wife and I were at the coast (Port Aransas, Texas) with one of our sons,  doing a little fishing and enjoying the sun. 

What you have written above I've seen for over 45 years.  As a matter of fact, in 1970 to around 1973, I believed what you presented as a question.  I started following Christ (disciple, not Protestant nor Denominational) when I was 30 in 1970.  I will present to you what I believe is correct and hopefully you can gain something from it.  I quite arguing many years ago.  As Christ loves us all, I hope, as a disciple, I will love all also. 

In the premillennial view of Bible prophecy, the events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered “…Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.” (Zech 13:7) This was fulfilled when Jesus says, "'You will all fall away, because it is written, "I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED"'" (Mark 14:27)

What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send "his armies" and destroy "those murderers, and set their city on fire" (Matt 22:7)

For I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered (Matt 24:17), the women ravished  (Luke 17:35), and half the city exiled Matt 24:16)], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech 14:2).

This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire "extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million." 

Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the "rod of [His] anger"  (Isaiah 10:5). "So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations, generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands." Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70.

The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was "the day of the Lord" Jesus, on which he came to "destroy those that would not that he should reign over them" (Matt 22:1-14; 24:3, 23­:35). When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted (Luke 21:20-24) A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and thus were "not cut off from the city" of God (Gal 4:21-31; Hebrews 12:22-25)  Josephus says that 1,100,000 Jews were destroyed.

Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary.

Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle (Zech 14:3).

After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment. Once again, Assyria is the model: "I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets . . . . So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness'" (Isaiah 10:56; 12:13). "It is significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem." 

Thomas Scott concurs: "It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders."

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech 14:4)

It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present.

NOTICE HOW MANY TIMES GOD’S COMING IS ASSOCIATED WITH MOUNTAINS.  (This “coming in clouds” (example Matthew 24:30) in the New Testament is the Greek “Parousia” which means “His presence” not a literal coming)

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen 11:5, 7).

"So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).

"Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).

"Bow Thy heavens, O LORD, and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).

"For thus says the LORD to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the LORD of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isaiah 31:4).

"Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence­" (Isa. 64:1).

"When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to "come down and tread on the high places of the earth." How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split?

Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."

What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 145­-220) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. 14:4]." Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy: “The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood (Song of Solomon 2:17). But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church lay in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph 2:14.

You will notice that there is no mention of a thousand year reign. Yet, we are told that "the LORD will be king over all the earth" ( Zech 14:9). So what is new about this language? "For the LORD Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet" (Psalm 47:2, 3). This is exactly what happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Paul told the Roman Christians that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Rom. 16:20). The church's adversary (Satan) was those Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah and persecuted His Bride, the church (see John 16:2). Jesus calls them a "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 3:9).

May the Lord bless us as we serve Him,

Your servant in Messiah,

Charles Jemeyson

[charlesj]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi charlesj,

 "he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”....Heb 9:28

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.".........Acts 1:11

Hello JoeCanada:

 

 

Hebrews 9:28 is generally one of the first verses offered as proof there is to be a yet future return of Jesus. Let us notice a few things about the text.

     The inspired writer says in Heb 9:26 Jesus had appeared "once" to put away sin by sacrificing himself. The Greek word translated once is "hapax" and normally means "once for all time," see Jude 3 “…Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once (Greek “hapax”) for all delivered to the saints.”  I Peter 3:18 “….For Christ also died for sins once (Greek “hapax”) for all…”   The writer then says Jesus "shall appear the second time unto salvation," vs. 28.

     The force of the word "second" as used here is the same as "once;" Christ would not appear again and again.  He appeared (Parousia His presence.) in Matt 24:30 when He came in clouds.

     Almost all interpreters admit Jesus came in the destruction of Jerusalem. One writer commenting on Matthew 24:29-31 says "It is a coming of Christ in judgment upon the city of Jerusalem." But we ask, for what purpose did Jesus come in A.D.70? Was it not simply for judgment of the wicked!   In Luke 21 Jesus spoke of Jerusalem's coming destruction: "then shall they see the Son of Man coming (Parousia) in a cloud with power and great glory" vs. 27. He said "when these things come to pass then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh" vs. 28. In verse 32 he said it would be in that generation.

     The word "redemption" used here is the identical word used in Romans 3:24; 8:23; I Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7,14, etc. to speak of the redemption of salvation.

     With these few facts before us let us draw a conclusion.

     Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus would appear a second time (A.D. 70), not many times, unto salvation. Jesus said he was going to return at the destruction of Jerusalem and this would be the redemption [salvation] of his Body (the Jewish Christian church). He said it would be in that generation. Therefore Jesus' return in the destruction of Jerusalem for the second time was also for the purpose of redemption, is the return of Hebrews 9:28.

BTW: when the church started on the Day of Pentecost, the First Day of the week, Sunday, there were 3,000 Jews saved and added to the church. Later 5,000 more Jews were added.  For the first 7 years, only Jewish Christians were in the church.  Acts 10 & 11 talks about the first Gentiles that were saved by the gospel. The Gentiles were “afar off”  Eph 2:13-22 and added to the Jewish Church.

     Since Christ's coming in A.D.70 was the coming for redemption, and since He was to return only once for salvation per Hebrews 9:28, then Christ's return in A.D. 70 was the final coming of Christ.

Many teachers/preachers talk about the “second coming” and apply it to our time.  This will NOT HAPPEN.  All Christians will live out their lives and serve the Lord until death.  At death the body will go back to DUST and the “real you, your spirit” will immediately go back, face to face, with the Lord. I am 79 years old and have served the Lord since I was 30 and hope to serve Him until death.  I am in very good health, but I know my time is short and I look forward to face Him.

     This conclusion is corroborated in Hebrews 10:33-39. The Hebrew writer is speaking to his Jewish brethren of believers.  He is telling those Jewish believers to “hold on” until the Messiah’s coming in A.D. 70.  Of course the writer does not know when the Messiah will come, but he knows it is a short time before He comes:

“…partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.  For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.  For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.  For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay. But my righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”

The writer in Hebrews 10 addresses Christ's coming in judgment and salvation: "For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and he will not delay." [Tragically, most commentators insist he HAS DELAYED!]

Christ gave a prophecy talking directly to the nation of Israel and telling them of the coming destruction.  (Please read: Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13:1-33; Luke 17:20-37 & Luke 21:5-36) This prophecy was given around A.D. 30 and was fulfilled in A.D. 70, 40 years later. Christ said He was “coming (PAROUSIA) in clouds”  (Matt 24:30)  The Greek Parousia means “His presence.”  If you read the verse before this, Matthew 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken…”  This coming of the Messiah Jesus was His second coming, a “Parousia.”

We with our “western minds” we overlook and don’t understand what the Hebrew mind sees when, in prophecy, the sun, moon and stars are used.  “Coming in clouds, sun, moon & stars” is “judgement language” throughout the Hebrew bible.  When you see the sun is darkened, the moon doesn’t give its light and the stars fall from heaven then you are seeing judgment language showing a nation falling.  The stars falling in Jerusalem (Matt 24:29) were the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, Priests etc. The nation of Israel, the temple, the Jewish Nation fell and was destroyed in A.D. 70.  At this time the “Law of Moses” “vanished away” and the Old Covenant ended.  Between the time of the death of Christ and A.D. 70 was a “transitional period.”  At the cross the Kingdom of God started and was “established” in A.D. 70.  From A.D. 70 on the New Covenant was fully established.

When Christ came the second time (His presence in Matt 24:30) Jesus used the Roman General Titus as a “tool” to destroy the Nation of Israel, its temple and the genealogies of the Jews.  There is not a Jew today that can tell you from what tribe they came from because God saw to it that there would never be an Aaronic priesthood.  Only the High Priest, Jesus Christ, from the tribe of Judah reigns!

Upon what basis can anyone postulate a future coming of Christ? He promised to come [once] again for salvation. He said when it would be; and he kept his word. It is something to ponder.

I feel like I could write volumes on this subject. 

May the Lord bless us as we serve Him,

Charles Jemeyson

“The SUM of thy Word is Truth”  (Ps 119:160)

[charlesj]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi charlesj,

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.".........Acts 1:11

 

Hello JoeCanada:

I am going to write this, but hope not to offend you. I've seen what you have written regarding Acts 1.11 many times. 

It is quite astounding that some will retreat to the haven of every passage they can find that does not explicitly mention or include a time reference in order to escape the preponderance of evidence of an imminent return in "coming again" passages which show the Parousia as being at hand (engus), and coming in the lifetime of the first-century generation. (Matt.10:23; 16:27,28; 24:3,14,34; 26:64; Rom.13:11-12; 16:20; 1 Cor.1:7-8; 10:11; Phil.4:5; Heb.10:37; Jas.5:7-8; 1 John 2:17-18; Rev.1:1-3, 22:6,10,12). Many who do this seem totally unaware that such is a desperate effort to avoid, evade, and escape the issue. They apparently reason that using a scripture that does not have an explicit time reference cancels out the passages that include it. This is the same error the "Jehovah's Witnesses" make on their interpretation of Adam's death, Gen.2:16,17; 3:6; 5:5); that the Jews made on the raising of the temple of Christ's body (Matt.27:40; John 2:19-21); and that the premillenialists make on the establishment of the kingdom (Mk.1:14-15; Lk.21:32). In every case noted above, the failure to honor God's time statements forces an erroneous interpretation and application.

     One can make a time-prophecy teach anything and anytime of fulfillment by such tactics. For example, if one were to fail to consider the time statements and facts found in other passages, the kingdom could be taught as yet future. Jesus taught the disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come" (Matt.6:10). At the time those words were spoken, the kingdom was clearly future and therefore the propriety of praying for its arrival. Now would it not be very inexcusable exegesis to camp out on this text and make the assertion that the kingdom is yet future? Sure, this seems quite elementary, but it is exactly the reasoning and methods resorted to on "coming again" passages. Remember, one and one is two; belief and baptism equal salvation; and in time prophecies, the time and manner equals fulfillment. In the words of the Psalmist, "The sum of Thy word is truth..." (Psa.119:160, ASV). The late and eminent Foy E. Wallace, Jr. stated this principle in the following words. "The fulfillment of prophecy cannot be separated from TIME AND CIRCUMSTANCES (emp. mine, WHB) stated by the prophet." God's Prophetic Word, p.165.

     One text where this obvious fallacy of reasoning is evident is in the misuse and abuse of Acts 1:11 as an "answer"? or objection to coming again passages which show an imminent return of Christ. The attempt to array Acts 1:11 over against Heb.10:37, "FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY," and Jas.5:8, "You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming (parousia) of the Lord is at hand," staggers the imagination. The aim of this writing is to demonstrate that Acts 1:11 is in harmony with all the other time passages and that the interpretations argued for "in like manner," to circumvent such teachings raise insurmountable difficulties.

     First, it is agreed by all that Acts 1:11, "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven," refers to the Parousia. Jesus used the term "parousia," (presence) four times in Matthew 24, speaking of his return. Two of those references, verses 3 and 27, are before verse 34 (that mysteriously invisible and so-called "continental dividing line"). "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." Most agree that all coming before verse 34 is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. Therefore, they are led to the inescapable conclusion that the "parousia" of verses 3 and 27 occurred in 70 A.D., within that first-century generation.

     In addition, Jesus used the term "parousia" in two verses following verse 34, in 37 and 39. Are there two "parousias"? Is there no significance in the use of that definite article "the" in the Greek? Which "the" parousia is "THE" parousia? Which "the" parousia is the fall of Jerusalem, and which "the" parousia is the "second coming"? Inspiration anticipated this erroneous reasoning by placing the events before verse 34, which undeniably describe the fall of Jerusalem (Matt.24:15-17), in the same time as the day when the Son of Man is revealed (Luke 17:26-32), which is undeniably Christ's "parousia." It follows therefore, that Matthew 24 is one harmonious delineation of the fall of Jerusalem and parousia of Christ in 70 A.D..

     Harmony Of The Parousia In The Epistles

     Second, there is no distinction of "comings" in the epistles that justify two "parousias" taught in Matthew 24. (l Cor.15:23; 1 Thess.2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 2 Thess.2:1,8; Jas.5:7,8; 2 Pet.1:16; 3:4,12; 1 Jn.2:18). Again, God in His infinite wisdom anticipated the errors of those who would teach that "the Lord delayeth his parousia" or did not keep his promise (2 Pet.3:4), by placing a time reference in the epistles in connection with the parousia just as He did in Matthew 24.

     Observe:
All these things shall come upon this [1st century] generation."
The "parousia" is included in these things, vv.3-34 (vv.3,27).
Therefore the "parousia" occurred in that [1st century] generation.

     Parousia "At Hand"

     The parousia was said to be at hand (engus) or near in respect to time, when James wrote in or about A.D.60, just 10 years before the demise of Jerusalem and the Jewish state. "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord. Behold the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming (parousia) of the Lord draweth nigh," (is at hand, engus). Berry's interlinear literally translates, "...has drawn near" (Jas.5:7,8).

     Acts 1:11

     Now, if one considers the fact that Acts 1:11 is speaking of the parousia (though the word "parousia" is not used in the text), then we have: (1) Jesus saying that Acts 1:11 would occur, be fulfilled, in "this (first century) generation," and (2) James saying that Acts 1:11 is at hand in respect to time about A.D.60. What further proof is needed to show that the parousia (Acts 1:11) was at hand than a direct scriptural reference that uses both terms, "parousia" and "engus" in the same text? Any interpretation of Acts 1:11 that fails to honor the time limitations for the parousia is not "exegesis" but "eisegesis"! The only escape is to deny that Acts 1:11 is speaking of the parousia. Are we ready for that?

     In conclusion, it has been noted that the basic error of using passages which do not expressly mention time statements to refute those which do is a scriptural miscalculation and misuse of sound Biblical principles. Foy E. Wallace, Jr., in the reference noted, demolished the claims of premillenialism on the "postponement" and not-yet-come kingdom theories by using the principle of "time and circumstances" to arrive at the truth on time prophecies. This principle is catastrophic to the not-yet-come parousia theories traditionally embedded into the hearts of many today. The subject of the "parousia" in Matthew 24 is one and the same, agreeing time-wise with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. That was the only parousia or return of Christ in the New Testament and which James said was "at hand" (Jas.5:7,8). Acts 1:11 must mark "time" with it or find itself court-martialed out of the ranks of the "parousia" or "coming again" passages.

May the Lord bless you and family as you serve Him,

Charles Jemeyson

 

.

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, charlesj said:

Hello Diaste:

Sorry I did not respond until now.  My wife and I were at the coast (Port Aransas, Texas) with one of our sons,  doing a little fishing and enjoying the sun. 

No problem. Hope you had fun and caught some fish!

12 hours ago, charlesj said:

What you have written above I've seen for over 45 years.  As a matter of fact, in 1970 to around 1973, I believed what you presented as a question.  I started following Christ (disciple, not Protestant nor Denominational) when I was 30 in 1970.  I will present to you what I believe is correct and hopefully you can gain something from it.  I quite arguing many years ago.  As Christ loves us all, I hope, as a disciple, I will love all also. 

In the premillennial view of Bible prophecy, the events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered “…Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.” (Zech 13:7) This was fulfilled when Jesus says, "'You will all fall away, because it is written, "I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED"'" (Mark 14:27)

This is more or less distraction from the issue. I asked when the Mount of Olives cleaved and removed and split to Azal; and how the nations were to come worship the King every year if he was not one earth.

The bigger problem with this is ignoring all the other bits of prophecy associated with His coming and the cleaving of the Mount; none of which took place in AD 70 nor in the ensuing centuries.

12 hours ago, charlesj said:

What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send "his armies" and destroy "those murderers, and set their city on fire" (Matt 22:7)

For I will gather all the nations [the Roman armies] against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered (Matt 24:17), the women ravished  (Luke 17:35), and half the city exiled Matt 24:16)], but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city" (Zech 14:2).

This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (see Luke 2:1). The Roman Empire "extended roughly two thousand miles from Scotland south to the headwaters of the Nile and about three thousand miles from the Pillars of Hercules eastward to the sands of Persia. Its citizens and subject peoples numbered perhaps eighty million." 

Rome was raised up, like Assyria, to be the "rod of [His] anger"  (Isaiah 10:5). "So completely shall the city be taken that the enemy shall sit down in the midst of her to divide the spoil. All nations, generally speaking were represented in the invading army, for Rome was the mistress of many lands." Thomas Scott, using supporting references from older commentators and cross references to other biblical books, writes that Zechariah is describing the events surrounding Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70.

The time when the Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was "the day of the Lord" Jesus, on which he came to "destroy those that would not that he should reign over them" (Matt 22:1-14; 24:3, 23­:35). When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted (Luke 21:20-24) A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of "the heavenly Jerusalem" and thus were "not cut off from the city" of God (Gal 4:21-31; Hebrews 12:22-25)  Josephus says that 1,100,000 Jews were destroyed.

Forcing these series of descriptive judgment to leap over the historical realities of Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 so as to fit a future judgment scenario is contrived and unnecessary.

Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle (Zech 14:3).

After using Rome as His rod to smite Jerusalem, God turns on Rome in judgment. Once again, Assyria is the model: "I send it against a godless nation and commission it against the people of My fury to capture booty and to seize plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets . . . . So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, 'I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness'" (Isaiah 10:56; 12:13). "It is significant that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem." 

Thomas Scott concurs: "It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders."

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south (Zech 14:4)

It is this passage that dispensationalists use to support their view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah "coming down" to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present.

I'm all for simplicity. It's usually the best conclusion as long as all relevant information is considered. In the above a great deal is left out of the result. I'll list the associated events that accompany this prophecy and the ensuing conditions that must follow the fulfillment of the prophecy. I'll leave out Zech 14:1-5 as I'll stipulate this time only that your assessment is correct.

 

• and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. (Right off the bat this is troubling for the interpretation you present. This cannot be attributed to the Romans yet it must occur and it has not. Even if there is no time gap explicit all the evidence in the whole of eschatology points to the fact of one.)
• And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall be light. (So this happened in AD 70?)
• And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. (Did this happened in AD 70 as well? Or anytime since?)
• All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. (From topographical maps this area is mountains to this day.)
• And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. (This did not come to pass in AD 70 nor since.)
• And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. (Did this occur in the spiritual realm? An invisible plague of presence yet absence?)
• And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. (This says the Romans must have fought each other. We know that didn't happen.)
• And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. (I'm not clear if Judah fought in the Jewish rebellion of AD 70 but I know for a fact that wealth of the heathen stayed securely in Roman hands for centuries after.)
• And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. (Here is that plague again.)

All Nations will Worship the King

• And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (Year after year? According to you this should be the Romans going up to worship the king in Jerusalem every year to keep the feast of Tabernacles. That clearly did not happen and is not happening now. The rest is in the same vein.)
• And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 
• And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 
• This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
• In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 
• Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein:
• and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

So the conclusion of Scott, "It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders."" is not in keeping with the bulk of evidence but seizes wholly on the fall of the Roman Empire; an Empire which gained territory right to the reign of Diocletian in 284 AD and did not experience invasion till around 370 AD, and fully ignores the bullet points above which cannot be explained away using the Roman Empire, spirtualization, or allegory.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, charlesj said:

NOTICE HOW MANY TIMES GOD’S COMING IS ASSOCIATED WITH MOUNTAINS.  (This “coming in clouds” (example Matthew 24:30) in the New Testament is the Greek “Parousia” which means “His presence” not a literal coming)

Oh...so then one can be present even if they are not there? So if, for example, I don't go to my sister's home on Thanksgiving I'm still present even though I'm not literally there?

" ...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." - Matt 24:30

Here, 'coming in the clouds' is erchomai epi nephele.

Erchomai is defined as:

"erchomai: to come" and is used of a person coming from one place to go to another. It's also used as going from one place to another.

While 'parousia' is explained here:

3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]"

So wherever you are getting your info it's not complete. The root term 'Paron' is "the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation ".  Parousia is even more specific: "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit'"

So it's the arrival of the King who can deal with the problem and not some invisible presence while not being present.

 

12 hours ago, charlesj said:

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. . . . Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech" (Gen 11:5, 7).

"So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey. . . (Ex. 3:8).

"Then Thou didst come down on Mount Sinai, and didst speak with them from heaven. . . (Neh. 9:13a).

"Bow Thy heavens, O LORD, and come down; touch the mountains, that they may smoke" (Psalm 144:5).

"For thus says the LORD to me, 'As the lion or the young lion growls over his prey, against which a band of shepherds is called out, will not be terrified at their voice, nor disturbed at their noise, so will the LORD of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isaiah 31:4).

"Oh, that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence­" (Isa. 64:1).

"When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect, Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence" (Isa. 64:3).

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God "is coming forth from His place" to "come down and tread on the high places of the earth." How is this descriptive language different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split?

Micah says "the mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place" (1:4). "It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord 'coming' down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Hab. 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands (Isaiah 55:12)."

And what leads you to the conclusion treading the high places can only be allegorical, symbolic, or figurative? 

I have watched the Mt. St. Helens eruption many times. The entire side of that mountain ran like melted wax, like water poured down an incline, a moment before the explosion. I have watched many videos of landslides and the earth flows like a raging river. I just watched one from Pakistan where a stream of rock and soil flowed down the side of a slope which looked like at least a mile long. The rock and earth flowed just like a stream of water, or maybe a bit more viscous, like wax or warm honey. So a literal interpretation here is in keeping with the evidence. Entire mountains can indeed flow like wax.

12 hours ago, charlesj said:

What is the Bible trying to teach us with this descriptive language of the Mount of Olives "split in its middle"? The earliest Christian writers applied Zechariah 14:4 to the work of Christ in His day. Tertullian (A.D. 145­-220) wrote: "'But at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. 14:4]." Tertullian was alluding to the fact that the Olivet prophecy set the stage for the judgment-coming of Christ that would once for all break down the Jewish/Gentile division. Matthew Henry explains the theology behind the prophecy: “The partition-wall between Jew and Gentiles shall be taken away. The mountains about Jerusalem, and particularly this, signified it to be an enclosure, and that it stood in the way of those who would approach to it. Between the Gentiles and Jerusalem this mountain of Bether, of division, stood (Song of Solomon 2:17). But by the destruction of Jerusalem this mountain shall be made to cleave in the midst, and so the Jewish pale shall be taken down, and the church lay in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of this middle wall of partition, Eph 2:14.

And that Tertullian said it means what? Am I to take his word over scripture? There is far to much detail in this prophecy to relegate it to the ambiguity of allegory.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

We have to look at the whole, not just a part. The telling idea here is in the last sentence, "...ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:" This is a physical act as a direct result of the aforementioned cleaving of the mount of Olives; and not only the fleeing, the valley is described in detail; size, width and length. This is not an example of allegory like Rev 12, for instance, "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head." Obviously this represents something or someone, it's called a sign. There is no such qualifier in Zech 14.

 

12 hours ago, charlesj said:

You will notice that there is no mention of a thousand year reign. Yet, we are told that "the LORD will be king over all the earth" ( Zech 14:9). So what is new about this language? "For the LORD Most High is to be feared, a great King over all the earth. He subdues peoples under us, and nations under our feet" (Psalm 47:2, 3). This is exactly what happened with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Paul told the Roman Christians that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" (Rom. 16:20). The church's adversary (Satan) was those Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah and persecuted His Bride, the church (see John 16:2). Jesus calls them a "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 3:9).

May the Lord bless us as we serve Him,

Your servant in Messiah,

Charles Jemeyson

"The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

Just curious as to when this happened.

[charlesj]

Diaste:

Earlier, near the top of this thread you said, 

"This is more or less distraction from the issue. I asked when the Mount of Olives cleaved and removed and split to Azal; and how the nations were to come worship the King every year if he was not one earth.

The bigger problem with this is ignoring all the other bits of prophecy associated with His coming and the cleaving of the Mount; none of which took place in AD 70 nor in the ensuing centuries."

My question to you:  How do Christians today in every nation on earth worship Jesus and the Father without Jesus and the Father being physically and visibly in Jerusalem? How does anyone worship the Father and Jesus without being able to see the Father and Jesus. And how can you worship them if he is not even in Jerusalem?