Is purgatory real?

[Jostler]

10 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

Thanks, but how do we reconcile the scripture wherein Jesus said that he had not yet gone to Heaven?  

the only logical conclusion I can see is that paradise is not synonymous with heaven.   That's a very long study, and debatable since we're not given a great deal of detailed information about exactly what "paradise" is.  But it is clearly associated with both the Garden of Eden, and mentioned as the location of the "Tree of Life".   What is left very unclear, is exactly where God first placed it when He removed the Garden from this realm.

We can see clear evidence from the closing chapters of Revelation, that the Tree of Life is in Zion, the Heavenly Jerusalem....but exactly when it was/is placed there is unclear.  

Edited January 27, 2020 by Jostler

[Resurrection Priest]

1 hour ago, Jostler said:

If that is true, then Jesus lied to the thief who petitioned Him for mercy.  And I don't believe He ever lied.  He promised 'THIS DAY...' while still on the cross...not "in three days you will be with Me..."  

Our understanding of what Jesus actually said, comes from translated ancient Greek text with all capital letters and no punctuation marks. 

Jesus could have said,

"In truth I tell you, today [this very day] you will be with me in paradise."

OR

"In truth I tell you today, you will [at a future point] be with me in paradise." 

Move the comma.  Change the meaning.  

If a text can be interpreted more than one way, then it is NOT a "proof text".   We must find our answers from other passages. 

There are folks who believe that at death, one's spirit/soul goes through a time tunnel, instantly to the point of resurrection.  But that still wouldn't put the thief in "paradise" on Friday with Christ.  It might put him at the Glorious Return when those in Christ are resurrected.  You would have to define "paradise".  Is it the New Earth?   Is it the Heavenly realm? 

Just saying. 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 1/20/2020 at 8:41 PM, LonerAndy said:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

So you can see, after we die, we go to judgment.  The books are opened, and the book of life is opened, and we face the consequences of our choices in this world.

It's that simple.  The Bible says it.  If I don't believe those verses, then I would be saying the Bible lies, and if the Bible lies.... then I have no idea why any of us are here right now discussing it.

Those who believe that an immortal conscious "soul"/"spirit" continues on after the body dies, read the passage from Revelation with that in mind. 

Those who believe that our nature is mortal, and that immortality is received as a gift, only "in Christ" and is something we seek for, read the passage another way. 

It is almost impossible to get prior beliefs out of our minds, to read something with pure neutrality.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Resurrection Priest

[Resurrection Priest]

On 1/25/2020 at 7:23 PM, Jostler said:

I also question whether "paradise" is synonymous with heaven.  I'm also not sure we can call the story of Lazarus a parable.  It seems more likely to me that in that case, He was portraying a real event, and a real conversation that really took place in Hades.  In every other case I've examined that we know are parables, He never gave anyone a name.  It's always something more like "a certain man..." and is obviously use of an earthly example/principle (something we can comprehend from the natural...the "seen")  used to highlight and explain something spiritual (unseen and unseeable with natural senses).

I tend to think His recital of Lazarus' story is a legitimate and detailed peek into the nature of Hades, which we know He was sent to for three days of torment...paying the death price for sin God's justice required. 

 Matthew 13:34 "All these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable," (NAS)

He only spoke in parables. 

The "rich man" represented the Jews, who were "rich" in knowledge and blessings of God. 

The "beggar" Lazarus, with sores, lying "outside the gate" represented the Gentiles - viewed as "unclean" by the Jews, who had built a special wall around the Temple to keep them out.  The "sores" represented the uncleanness, and his position "outside the gate", represented the Jews view of the Gentiles as "outside" the Kingdom.  The Jews believed they would be "saved" and go to Paradise, just because they were circumcised Jews.  They believed that GOD had to keep His covenant with Abraham, and saw themselves as "Abraham's seed". 

(Paul makes it clear that being "Abraham's Seed" is NOT based on DNA, that Abraham had only One "Seed".  We must be "in Him".)

The Rich Man had "five brothers".  The High Priest Annas had five sons and one son-in-law (Ciaphas).  They had rotated the position of high priest among them.  They were Roman appointees.  

Jesus was using this parable to say the "unclean" beggars (who ate "the crumbs" of truth) would go into "the Kingdom" before the high and mighty who saw no need of a Savior to cleanse them from sin.  

Matthew 21:31 "Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

[Resurrection Priest]

On 1/25/2020 at 8:33 PM, Jostler said:

His audience certainly understood that Sheol, the grave, was synonymous with the "heart of the earth".   Hades was the Greek term for the "dimension" or "realm" of the dead.   Which was already well understood.

The Hebrew "sheol" (meaning:  abode of the dead) was translated into the Greek "Hades" - because - there was no equivalent word in the Greek for "sheol". 

That translation happened about 300BC.  It was done by 70 Hebrew scholars who spoke/understood Greek.   

But that word change brought a concept change.  It brought the Greek mythology of a "place" under the earth, where the spirits of wicked people go - it brought that into the language.  When you change words - you change beliefs and understanding. 

Jews understood Jerusalem to be "The Heart of the earth". 

Psalm 74:12  “For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth” (Ezek 38:12).  
    Ezekiel 5:5  “This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.”  

Jesus said He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of " Jerusalem - which at that time was evil.  The time begins with the kiss of Judas in the Garden.  That is when Jesus was "thrown overboard" like Jonah.  He said, "This is your hour and the power of darkness."  (Luke 22:53)

[Guest K9Buck]

21 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Matthew 21:31 "Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

Jesus' statement would certainly seem to apply to many self-righteous folks on this forum and throughout society.  Their pride, along with that big plank in their eye, prevents them from seeing their own fallibility.  

[Resurrection Priest]

2 hours ago, Jostler said:

We were born into the second death, and destined to also experience the first.....physical separation from this now utterly corrupted flesh.  The ULTIMATE end of the second death is incarceration, eternally, in the lake of fire as described in Revelation 20.

I believe the "second death" is annihilation - with no possibility of resurrection. 

God is just.  How can we think that an all-powerful Being (who wants us to love Him and trust Him), is saying that He will punish those puny humans who resist Him with unending conscious torment?  Talk about unjust!  

I could not perfectly trust someone I thought even capable of torturing me for 10 minutes!   And I'm supposed to perfectly trust a "God" who is threatening to torture me for eternity.  That just doesn't compute.  

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Life vs Death.  That's it.  Not eternal life vs eternal conscious torment. 

John 3:16 "For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

To "perish" means to die. 

John 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him."

Eternal life is the GIFT.   "dead" = without life.  "death" is the loss of life.   Like darkness is the absence of light.

We are told to "seek for immortality".    Romans 2:7 "eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;"

 

[Guest K9Buck]

1 minute ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe the "second death" is annihilation - with no possibility of resurrection. 

God is just.  How can we think that an all-powerful Being (who wants us to love Him and trust Him), is saying that He will punish those puny humans who resist Him with unending conscious torment?  Talk about unjust!  

I could not perfectly trust someone I thought even capable of torturing me for 10 minutes!   And I'm supposed to perfectly trust a "God" who is threatening to torture me for eternity.  That just doesn't compute.  

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Life vs Death.  That's it.  Not eternal life vs eternal conscious torment. 

John 3:16 "For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

To "perish" means to die. 

John 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him."

Eternal life is the GIFT.   "dead" = without life.  "death" is the loss of life.   Like darkness is the absence of light.

We are told to "seek for immortality".    Romans 2:7 "eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;"

 

 

I really enjoy your posts and your perspective.  Are you a priest, preacher or pastor?  

[Resurrection Priest]

3 hours ago, Jostler said:

Friend, God told Adam "In THE day that ye eat of it, ye SHALL surely die".   He did not lie.  Adam died THE day (24 hr time period) that he ate in rebellion to God's command.  That is the second death. 

You're saying that Adam died "the second death" on the very day he ate the forbidden fruit??  Is that what you're saying? 

I thought the "lake of fire" is "the second death". 

Revelation 20:14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

That would mean that Adam was thrown into the "Lake of Fire" way back on the day he ate the forbidden fruit. 

I don't see that one.  Revelation says "death" is thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne Judgment, which doesn't happen until at least 1000 years AFTER the Glorious Return.  If "death" and "Sheol"/Hades (the abode of the dead) is thrown into the Lake of Fire, that would mean that everyone who is dead - is gone with it. 

Now, if you mean that without a Savior, Adam was destined for the "second death".  That I can agree with. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Resurrection Priest

[Resurrection Priest]

3 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

 

I really enjoy your posts and your perspective.  Are you a priest, preacher or pastor?  

Just a teacher.  Will be held to a high standard, according to James.  lol