Could the rapture be referred to as a coming?

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23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And you need to follow your advice on using other books regarding the "elect" of Matthew 24.

From Matthew 24:15 onward, it is speaking to those in the land of Israel.  Those that will have to flee when they see the AOD, hoping it is not on a Shabbat, etc  

And in that context, Isaiah says that Jacob/Israel is the Lord's "elect"....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

It is arrogance on the part of those in the body to think that they are the only "elect".   Election is not the same meaning as justification.  The Justified or Redeemed of the unique Body of Messiah are indeed "elect" because of their justification thru Messiah, but that doesn't mean they are the only elect with a unique plan and purpose for the Lord.   Even the Messiah is called the Lord's "elect", but He sure doesn't need to be redeemed or justified or gathered from the four winds of the earth.....

Isaiah 42:1 (NKJV) "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

So the Lord can indeed gather the elect that makes up the unique body of Messiah prior to the the calamities of the period, and still gather the elect of Jacob/Israel at the end of the period, in keeping with Ezekiel 20:33-38.

No conflict.

The Elect is anyone selected by God..

Christians are the elect..

1 Peter 1: KJV

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, {2} Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

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On 1/30/2020 at 12:56 AM, kenny2212 said:

If every Christian is meant to be killed (or die by other means), why should there be a rapture?

I never preached that all Christians would be killed...  Some Christians will survive and be on earth on the day of the return of the LORD Jesus.. They are the ones who will be raptured..

[kenny2212]

Ok, Adstar.

God bless us all

[OldCoot]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

There, it seems to me, that the woman is Israel, she gave birth to a male child, a ruler over the nations who was caught up to the throne of God, how many people does that describe, I can think of only one!

It has been argued, and one can find some support for it in the OT that the the giving birth is the catching away of the body of Messiah.   Not sure that is the case, but it is curious.  Especially since Yeshua was not caught up as a child and the "caught up" is the same Greek "harpazo" that Paul uses to describe the believers being caught up to the Lord

 

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

So what do we have, we have the nations who get destroyed, and Christian who are dying because they will not submit, and the third group, those that escape and are protected by God. So, everyone is present and accounted for. Unbelievers are wiped out, Christian dying in persecution, but they come back with Jesus, and I know I do not have to tell you the verses you know them perfectly well, but does God destroy the Jews He just protected? Of course not.

In Matthew 25 is the judgement is occurring and there is dialogue going on between the Lord and those being judged, both the righteous and the unrighteous of the nations who are gathered when the Lord returns. So here, it is the unrighteous who the Lord is dialoguing with and stating the case....

Matthew 25:41-45 (NKJV) "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

So it would seem that the unbelievers are not wiped out as you suggest before the Lord comes.   Everyone left alive from that period is present....  those that came to faith in Messiah during that time, those that remained unbelievers, and the remnant of Israel who also will be separated out just as those of the nations are according to Ezekiel 20.  

So the conundrum for the post trib folks still remains.... if the righteous are caught up to be with the Lord at the END of the tribulation period as He is coming back, then there are no righteous of the nations to separate out from the unrighteous, complete with dialogue between the both groups of individuals and the Lord, on the physical earth in the area of Jerusalem.  The remnant of Israel who survive the tribulation period will have their own separation judgement to undergo. 

So whether it is the nations or the people of Israel, there are righteous and unrighteous who will be separated out after the Lord returns. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Adstar said:

The Elect is anyone selected by God..

Christians are the elect..

1 Peter 1: KJV

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, {2} Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Right.  I said the believers are elect in my previous post.  But the problem is, many confuse election with justification.  And there are different groups/individuals that are "elect" or selected by God for His unique plan and purpose.   Israel is also elect according to Isaiah and Paul, but not all of those of Israel are justified or redeemed.  In the believers case, that unique group is elect BECAUSE they are justified.  Israel is elect because of the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  But in that case, not all of Israel are justified.  Even Paul makes that very clear.

And in Matthew 24:15 onward, the context is speaking of those in Israel, not the world.  So that would be the elect of Israel that is in view. 

Later in Matthew 25, when the Lord returns, the nations are gathered and judged on how they treated the elect group of Israel.  It is an exposition on Joel 3.

[OldCoot]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

The point about the 'rapture' is it was likely never associated with the body of evidence in the whole of scripture. In my understanding it was dreamed up by McDonald and promoted by Darby as a pretrib event from the beginning. If that's true, and my information tells me it is, then the 'rapture event' is not real. There just isn't one. Some may think it's a semantic argument alone but since scripture records 'harpazo' as 'a sudden taking' and we know this is the moment of our redemption, it's more a total belief in the Word of God as preserved. I'm not interested in a discredited compilation in a dead language.

But again it's more than a affectation. The idea from the inception was pretrib and pretrib is found ill suited to the whole of scripture's account on the gathering.

I still am waiting for anyone to show where in Macdonald's vision she even referenced a pre-trib.  She does mention that the church will undergo persecution by the antichrist.  That would seem to support pre-wrath or post trib.  I am surprised those folks haven't pasted her vision all over the place.  But I will post a link from an Preterist website that is a transcript of the account.  That is so there is a level playing field and no pre-tribber fiddled with the text of Macdonal's vision....

https://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html

Last I checked and if I am not mistaken, Dr. Thomas Ice had a $1000 reward out for anyone who could show that Macdonald ever referenced the pre-trib rapture.   Good chance for anyone to make some quick spending cash if they want to.

And William Watson did an extensive treatise "Dispensationalism Before Darby"  on the subject and documented that there are writings and sermons that go several hundred years (back to the 1500's) before Darby that show the pre-trib was a concept that was referenced.    It is not a late view as many suppose, and your information is faulty.  Of course there would be sparse evidence prior to the 1500's as the institutional Church pretty much controlled writings and sermons so the evidence prior to the reformation is sparse.   But even as early as the 4th century there is evidence that the pre-trib was referenced in sermons.

Edited January 31, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

21 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

The covenant that I am most interested in is God's covenant (or agreement) of salvation for His chosen. This covenant of God's grace manifests itself in most or all the other "physical" covenants you have mentioned. When I read the Bible I look for the spiritual import of it....the "mysteries of the kingdom".... this is why I am enjoying this forum.... looking for others to compare spiritual things with spiritual.

I am interested in all the covenants the Lord has made.  The Davidic Covenant is especially important as it is the one that gives Messiah the authority to rule in the lineage of David over Israel in the future.  The Messianic Kingdom after the GT period.

The Abrahamic covenant has never yet been fulfilled, so I am interested to see it fulfilled in the future.  Also during the Messianic Kingdom.

The main point is, if the Lord cannot be trusted to fulfill the covenants He has made that are unconditional, then one's salvation cannot be assured either.   That Fact that the Lord holds His promises even higher than His name and it is for His name's sake that He will ensure they are fulfilled is the insurance policy that He can be trusted to fulfill the promises made to those who trust in Messiah.

Those covenants are indeed critical, even for the believer for whom they do not directly apply and to whom those covenants were not made.

Even Peter recognized this. Even though he and the disciples had personally interacted with Yeshua, it is the sure word of prophecy regarding the Messiah and the trustworthiness of the Lord to fulfill His promises that was more important and confirmed who Yeshua is. Prophecy was more sure to Peter than even his own eyes.  

2 Peter 1:16-19 (KJV) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

We rest on the prophecy of the Covenants the Lord made unconditionally to Abraham and David.  It is our insurance that we have redemption unconditionally thru Messiah when we trust in Him.  To spiritualize those covenants away is impugning the character of the Lord.   And I am not sure that one who is willing to do that is indeed in Messiah because to spiritualize these things away is to say that the Lord is a liar and didn't know what He was talking about.

Edited February 1, 2020 by OldCoot

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21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Right.  I said the believers are elect in my previous post.  But the problem is, many confuse election with justification.  And there are different groups/individuals that are "elect" or selected by God for His unique plan and purpose.   Israel is also elect according to Isaiah and Paul, but not all of those of Israel are justified or redeemed.  In the believers case, that unique group is elect BECAUSE they are justified.  Israel is elect because of the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  But in that case, not all of Israel are justified.  Even Paul makes that very clear.

And in Matthew 24:15 onward, the context is speaking of those in Israel, not the world.  So that would be the elect of Israel that is in view. 

Later in Matthew 25, when the Lord returns, the nations are gathered and judged on how they treated the elect group of Israel.  It is an exposition on Joel 3.

But it does not say that sinning Jews will be the elect...  But the Book of revelation declares that 144.000 decendants of abraham will be the remnant elect because they are innocents..

Revelation 14: KJV

1 "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. {2} And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: {3} And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. {4} These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. {5} And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

There is only one way for sinners to be Redeemed and that is by accepting the gift of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Adstar said:

But it does not say that sinning Jews will be the elect...  But the Book of revelation declares that 144.000 decendants of abraham will be the remnant elect because they are innocents..

No... but it says all Jacob/Israel is Elect.   It is true, there are saved of that group and unsaved of that group.  They will be separated out when the Lord returns.  But ALL ISRAEL is elect.  That is, unless the Lord is  a liar.  He said it direct to Isaiah

Again... do not confuse election with justification. That is where so many stumble at this.

Isaiah 45:3-4 (NKJV) I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the Lord,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Even when Jacob/Israel is not believing, they are still elect or set apart to God for His plan and purpose.

Likewise, Paul makes the same proclamation.

Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

What part of irrevocable is irrevocable or can be taken away?

Romans 9:3-4 (NKJV) For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;

All of that is present tense.  Jacob/Israel still has the adoption and the promise.

Paul is wishing he was accursed if it would rescue his unsaved brethren of Israel.   But he still acknowledges that the same thing as he did in Romans 11, that it is to Jacob/Israel that pertains the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the service of God, and THE PROMISES.

The promises have not passed on to the church or some other nonsense.  They still belong to literal Jacob/Israel.

Also Jacob / Israel is elect because it will be solely because of them that the Lord will return again!   I know in our Christian arrogance that seems unbelievable, but...

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

And the above is why Satan has expended so much effort to eliminate the Hebrew people from the earth over the centuries, so there is none left who can call (in the time of Jacob's Trouble coming upon the earth) on the Lord for His return.  Unfortunately many of the "church" have been complicit in this motivation to eradicate the Hebrew people as well.  

And it is the main purpose to the tribulation period, the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"... to drive Jacob/Israel to realize their offense of rejecting Messiah the first time He came, and turn to Him and petition for His return.   Then as Paul states....

Romans 11:26-27 (NKJV) And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

Edited February 1, 2020 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

It kind of hurts to see all these teachings of trying to separate saved Jews from saved non-jews in a contrived thousand year period to "get right with God", they have some flying around in heaven while the other ones are still on earth, and then finally when they get to the kingdom after the thousand years they're still separated by the outer courts or whatever... lots of perspectives and timelines jumbled in confusion.

 

I think it only hurts because you have twisted into a pretzel what I wrote about.  Much on what you wrote above, I never wrote about.  Very disingenuous on your part.  

Edited February 1, 2020 by OldCoot