Is Theistic Evolution Tenable?

[omega2xx]

17 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Notice the actual photographs of whale embryos.   Notice how, as the embryo grows, the nostrils move from the front of the face to the top of the head.

Notice the photographs of the skulls of Pakicetus and Rhodocetus,and the movement of the nostrils back on the head.

No point in denial.  C'mon.

It did have genes for legs and nostrils.    The same genes that make legs in land animals, make fins in whales.   Likewise, nostrils and blowholes.  Would you like learn more about that?

As you have learned, you have many, many misconceptions about genetics.  This is just one of the major ones.

Adaptive Evolution of 5′HoxD Genes in the Origin and Diversification of the Cetacean Flipper

Zhe Wang, Lihong Yuan, Stephen J. Rossiter, Xueguo Zuo, Binghua Ru, Hui Zhong, Naijian Han, Gareth Jones, Paul D. Jepson, Shuyi Zhang

Author Notes

Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 26, Issue 3, March 2009, Pages 613–622

Abstract

The homeobox (Hox) genes Hoxd12 and Hoxd13 control digit patterning and limb formation in tetrapods. Both show strong expression in the limb bud during embryonic development, are highly conserved across vertebrates, and show mutations that are associated with carpal, metacarpal, and phalangeal deformities. The most dramatic evolutionary reorganization of the mammalian limb has occurred in cetaceans (whales, dolphins, and porpoises), in which the hind limbs have been lost and the forelimbs have evolved into paddle-shaped flippers. We reconstructed the phylogeny of digit patterning in mammals and inferred that digit number has changed twice in the evolution of the cetacean forelimb. First, the divergence of the early cetaceans from their even-toed relatives coincided with the reacquisition of the pentadactyl forelimb, whereas the ancestors of tetradactyl baleen whales (Mysticeti) later lost a digit again. To test whether the evolution of the cetacean forelimb is associated with positive selection or relaxation of Hoxd12 and Hoxd13, we sequenced these genes in a wide range of mammals. In Hoxd12, we found evidence of Darwinian selection associated with both episodes of cetacean forelimb reorganization. In Hoxd13, we found a novel expansion of a polyalanine tract in cetaceans compared with other mammals (17/18 residues vs. 14/15 residues, respectively), lengthening of which has previously been shown to be linked to synpolydactyly in humans and mice. Both genes also show much greater sequence variation among cetaceans than across other mammalian lineages. Our results strongly implicate 5′HoxD genes in the modulation of digit number, web forming, and the high morphological diversity of the cetacean manus.

Because genetics is a mystery to you, you knew nothing about this.   But geneticists know.    Why not take a little time, learn some basic things about genetics and it will go better for you.

 

Because you are completely ignorant o f what constitutes evidence and also of even basic genetics, continuing this discussion is a waste  of time. 

Go to ICR, study what they say and maybe you will l earn something.

Have a nice day.

 

[omega2xx]

On 3/30/2020 at 4:21 PM, The Barbarian said:

As you now realize, even many ancient Jewish theologians knew that Genesis is an allegory.   So did many ancient Christians.    Your exceptions notwithstanding.    Instead of revising His word, just accept it as it is.   

In the early days most took Genesis literally.  I doubt if you can name 6 ancient theologians who said Genesis is an allegory. and  give Biblical reasons why it is an allegory.  I will also predict you can't tell me why  Gen 1-2 is allegorical.  You have heard some others say it is and you don't understand the Bible well enough to refute them.  How sad

Also if you understood the Bible, you would know that allegories are based on literal events(Gal 4:24-31). 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by omega2xx

[omega2xx]

On 3/26/2020 at 7:16 PM, Behold said:

And i absolutely agree that you have a God Given right of Freewill to be involved in the pursuit. =  regarding whatever you want to pursue, be it knowledge, or a collection of hand made custom acoustic guitars.

As for myself......im the very same.

Where and when i learned to deeply respect that bible, completely and ultimately, to the point where i can't even define myself as a denomination, but only as a bible believing Christian, is not just because the words in that book changed me from the inside out and are doing it still.    But, also, its because, as i was first being called to teach the NT and become an Evangelist in 1987, God took me into a series of jobs, where i dealt with really hardened bible rejecting and God hating types.  And i discovered that i could be in a small cafeteria with say, 80 of these people, and i would take out my KJV (NT and Psalms/Proverbs) and read it silently  while i was eating, and the entire room would begin to shift and squirm and come under conviction.  And WHY?    It was that LIVING BOOK working on the inside of those people as the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and i saw this happen many many times...

That word, that Bible, is a LIVING BOOK.  It has God's Spirit bonded to every letter found on every page.  When you lift up that book, you are lifting up God.  When you believe that Book, you are Believing God. When you teach that Holy Book, you are teaching GOD.      When you are discounting, disputing, denying, and castigating that book with what you say or write, you are doing the very same to and against God Himself, who inspired that Holy book by His Holy Spirit.

Actually it is you who is not respecting God and His Word, when you say Genesis  is not literal.  You also need to know that when yom is used with a number it always means a 24 hour day.  You also need to explain how plant life lived for million of years with no sun..  Are you really saying God is not able to created the universe in 6 days?  He could have done it in 6 seconds if He wanted to. 

 

 

 

On 3/26/2020 at 7:16 PM, Behold said:

 

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[The Barbarian]

51 minutes ago, omega2xx said:

In the early days most took Genesis literally.  I doubt if you can name 6 ancient theologians who said Genesis is an allegory. and  give Biblical reasons why it is an allegory.  I will also predict you can't tell me why  Gen 1-2 is allegorical. 

I've already pointed out why ancient Christians knew the days of Genesis were not literal days.   As you know, it's logically impossible to mornings and evenings with no sun to have them.

Which early Jewish or Christian theologians knew this?

St. Augustine

Origen

Philo of Alexandria

Maimonides

Moses ben Nahmen

Gregory of Naziansus

Iranaeus of Lyon

1 hour ago, omega2xx said:

Also if you understood the Bible, you would know that allegories are based on literal events(Gal 4:24-31). 

I told you that some time ago.   The fall was real; Adam and Eve were real people.  What you resist is God's use of real people and events in allegories.

 

 

[omega2xx]

On 4/3/2020 at 5:51 PM, The Barbarian said:

I've already pointed out why ancient Christians knew the days of Genesis were not literal days.  As you know, it's logically impossible to mornings and evenings with no sun to have them.

Another amusing example of if you believe something it must be true.  They, like you only believed it is impossible.  It is not necessary to have the sun to have day and night.  All you need is light, which was the first thing God created and the earth rotating.

 

 

On 4/3/2020 at 5:51 PM, The Barbarian said:

Which early Jewish or Christian theologians knew this?

St. Augustine

Origen

Philo of Alexandria

Maimonides

Moses ben Nahmen

Gregory of Naziansus

Iranaeus of Lyon

Another example  of your lack of understanding the Bible.  They did not know it, they only believed it.  It was only their interpretation, which was not the common belief  of most Christians, and still  isn't. 

I ask you to explain what is not literal in Genesis 1 and 2, which you failed to do, except for a day needing the sun to have day and night., which I easily refuted.  That is because you can't.  Also allegories and all figurative language teach a spirituals truth or they are of no value.  What spiritual truths does Genesis teach through allegory?  Another perfect example of you saying something you believe  but offer no evidence as to why it is not literal.    Certainly "after their kind" is literal and proved thousands of times every day.  And the time between day 3 and day 4 must be literal.  plants can't live million of years without the sun.  That is probably the best example of why each day must be only 24 hours, and you can't explain how plant life lived  if the time between those days was million of years.

Augustine believed Genesis was literal although he did not take literal in the common way it is used today.  Origin was condemned because of his attempt to try and make most of the Bible as allegory.  Philo of Alexandria did take Genesis to be an allegory.  The last 3 you mentioned are not considered great theologians.  Even if all that you mentioned did take Genesis o be an allegory, since you did not tell how  it was an allegory, it is meaningless and it was not then or now, the common belief in Christianity.  It is only considered an allegory by those who do not understand the Bible and who deny the power of God.  This is obvious because you can't explain exactly what  spiritual truths are being taught by the allegory.

I told you that some time ago.  

No you didn't, I told you that.

The fall was real; Adam and Eve were real people.  What you resist is God's use of real people and events in allegories.

Wrong again.  I insist God uses literal events in all of His allegories.  That is what we see in Galatians 4:24-31, which is he only passage called an allegory.  Here is your main inconsistency;   If you know allegories are built on literal events, then Genesis 1 and 2 are literal.  This  is also reinforeced by the FACT you can't tell what spiritual truths  are being taught by those sections of Genesis.

 

 

 

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, omega2xx said:

Another amusing example of if you believe something it must be true.

it's just a fact that there can be no mornings or evenings without a sun to have them.   If your theology depends on redefining words, isn't that a pretty good clue for you?

And I told you some time ago, that there can be allegories about real people and real events.  

1 hour ago, omega2xx said:

No you didn't, I told you that.

You don't listen very well.   It's not all that you missed.

1 hour ago, omega2xx said:

If you know allegories are built on literal events, then Genesis 1 and 2 are literal.

Yep.  They are just sometimes presented figuratively, as God's people have always recognized.   Let it be God's way, and it won't bother you any longer.

 

 

[omega2xx]

On 4/5/2020 at 11:36 AM, The Barbarian said:

it's just a fact that there can be no mornings or evenings without a sun to have them.  

I have told you how  it is possible.   If you can't understand a simple explanation, that's your problem. 

If your theology depends on redefining words, isn't that a pretty good clue for you?

I didn't redefine any words.  I simply took what is written and applied a little common sense.  I also use Gen 1:5, which might help you understand the passage"  God   called the light DAY and the darkness He called NIGHT.

And I told you some time ago, that there can be allegories about real people and real events.  

Yes right after I told you that allegories are ALWAYS bases on literal events.  You are still avoiding what the allegories is specifically and what spiritual truth it teaches.  Of course that is your usual MO---make a dogmatic statement but NEVER  support it. I have put on my prophecy hat and predict you will no tell what the allegory is and what it teaches, because you can't  You can't because it is not an allegory/

You don't listen very well.   It's not all that you missed.

What I have missed mostly is you making dogmatic statement but never supp0ort them.

Yep.  They are just sometimes presented figuratively, as God's people have always recognized. 

Yes there is a lot of figurative language in the Bible, but some people never see or understand it. What is more common is when some see a passage that disagrees with their theology, they  boldly claim it is figurative.  That is what you are doing.

  Let it be God's way, and it won't bother you any longer.

Take your own advise.

 

 

 

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, omega2xx said:

I didn't redefine any words.  I simply took what is written and applied a little common sense.  I also use Gen 1:5, which might help you understand the passage"  God   called the light DAY and the darkness He called NIGHT.

Yep.   You redefined "morning" and "evening."    "Common sense" isn't a substitute for using words as they are used by everyone else.  

Morning and evening are not day and night.  

And I already told you that allegories can involve real events and real people.   It took you a while to get that.

2 hours ago, omega2xx said:

Yes right after I told you that allegories are ALWAYS bases on literal events. 

And yet you still don't want to tell us what the allegory means.    So I'm skeptical

Just let it be God's way and it won't bother you any longer.

 

[omega2xx]

On 4/6/2020 at 7:12 PM, The Barbarian said:

Yep.   You redefined "morning" and "evening."    "Common sense" isn't a substitute for using words as they are used by everyone else.  

Morning and evening are not day and night.  

DUUH.  It would help you understand the Bible  if you used all of it instead of just those verses you THINK support your biased view.  Evolution needs billions of years, another necessary misinterpretation of morning and evening,  To go from a single cell blob to the very complex we see in man and other life forms, including plant life, is insane and can't b e supported scientifically.  Also you continue to ignore how plant life lived billion of years with no sun.  You also continue to ignore the FACT that in God's inerrant word, anytime  yom is used with a number it ALWAYS means a 24 hour day.  You have to do that because it reveals your lack of understanding.

Also you have failed to  include morning and evening is part of what constitutes day and night.   You have also failed to use what God did when he separated the light from the darkness(Gen 1:5).  At that time there was still no sun and God called light DAY and the darkness He called NIGHT.  So is is YOU not me who is redefining words.

And I already told you that allegories can involve real events and real people.   It took you a while to get that.

That was your comment after I explained all allegories\\is are based on literal events.  You haven't got that yet.  Don't worry, I will continue to help you understand the Bible.

And yet you still don't want to tell us what the allegory means.    So I'm skeptical

Not only have you failed to tell us what the allegory is, you have failed to tell us what spiritual truths it teaches.  That is the critical part of all allegories,

Just let it be God's way and it won't bother you any longer.

A true understanding of a passage gives me comfort, it certainly does not bother me.  I can gladly accept God created the universe in 6 days, you can't. 

Could God have created the universe in 6 days?  If so, let it be God's way and it wont bother you any longer.

 

 

 

[The Barbarian]

On 4/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, omega2xx said:

Evolution needs billions of years

Nope.  It's observed working daily.   You've confused the phenomenon of evolution with a consequence of evolution, common descent.

On 4/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, omega2xx said:

To go from a single cell blob to the very complex we see in man and other life forms, including plant life, is insane and can't b e supported scientifically. 

Actually, it's very well documented.   Would you like to learn more about how we know this?

On 4/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, omega2xx said:

You also continue to ignore the FACT that in God's inerrant word, anytime  yom is used with a number it ALWAYS means a 24 hour day. 

  You've assumed what you proposed to prove.

On 4/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, omega2xx said:

Also you have failed to  include morning and evening is part of what constitutes day and night.

I'm merely pointing out that "morning" and "evening" do not mean "day" and "night."    If you have to redefine words to make your point,that's a pretty good clue for you.

On 4/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, omega2xx said:

And I already told you that allegories can involve real events and real people.   Later, you did acknowledge the fact. It took you a while to get that.    And yet you still don't want to tell us what the allegory means.    So I'm skeptical

 

On 4/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, omega2xx said:

Not only have you failed to tell us what the allegory is, you have failed to tell us what spiritual truths it teaches.

I guess, since you aren't going to tell us, I should tell you:

Allegory is a figure of speech in which abstract ideas and principles are described in terms of characters, figures, and events. It can be employed in prose and poetry to tell a story, with a purpose of teaching or explaining an idea or a principle. The objective of its use is to teach some kind of a moral lesson.

On 4/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, omega2xx said:

Could God have created the universe in 6 days?  

Do you think God is obligated to do whatever it is possible for Him to do?    Let Him do it His way.