douggg Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, not an echo said: But you do show the Great Tribulation beginning 1290 days BEFORE the opening of the 6th Seal. I'm kinda confused. I show the 1335 days of the Great Tribulation containing (the 1290 days. + 45 days). The Great Tribulation goes on until the Day that Jesus returns. There are the Jews in Jerusalem for example, in Zechariah 14, who are held hostages by the beast and his armies of the world, hoping that will keep Jesus from executing judgment on the wicked of the world. Most of the Great Tribulation is over when the sixth seal event takes place. (if that is what you are noting?). YES, the sixth seal takes place near the very end of the Great Tribulation. 1290 days from when the Great Tribulation first begins. Where a lot people go wrong is that they read into the text of Matthew 24:29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" - as being "Immediately after the great tribulation of those days". My chart corrects that common error of misreading the text. Here is the breakdown of Matthew 24:29-30. Every step and word of that chart is carefully measured. Look at what I underlined in the text below - and then look at the chart. You will see those exact same phrases. Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [the 1290 days] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[the sixth seal event]. 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven [The Lanb in sixth seal event appearing in the third heaven, after the comos is parted]: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and [45 days later] they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Jesus descending to earth with His heavenly host, in Revelation 19]. Edited May 25, 2020 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 6 hours ago, douggg said: 9 hours ago, not an echo said: But you do show the Great Tribulation beginning 1290 days BEFORE the opening of the 6th Seal. I'm kinda confused. I show the 1335 days of the Great Tribulation containing (the 1290 days. + 45 days). The Great Tribulation goes on until the Day that Jesus returns. There are the Jews in Jerusalem for example, in Zechariah 14, who are held hostages by the beast and his armies of the world, hoping that will keep Jesus from executing judgment on the wicked of the world. Most of the Great Tribulation is over when the sixth seal event takes place. (if that is what you are noting?). YES, the sixth seal takes place near the very end of the Great Tribulation. 1290 days from when the Great Tribulation first begins. Good morning douggg, I still haven't seen anything concerning what you do with the 7th Seal, which is so very huge for me that I'm not really able to plug in to your chart. And, as I see it, whatever one believes about anything in The Revelation, it has to be anchored to the first three verses. It has to be. This is one of the most glaring oversights that I have encountered as I have reviewed the popular views over the decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) On 5/24/2020 at 7:24 AM, Diaste said: On 5/22/2020 at 11:53 AM, not an echo said: Concerning "the prophecy must take place within a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7," I don't see the seals as being part of Daniel's 70th Week, nor the first five trumpets. Where are you seeing this? I don't see any scriptural evidence of the 70th Week until Rev. 11:1-3. What you are saying about "It's an unbroken foretelling of the end of age from chapter 1-22, and it's also clear it's 7 years max duration" is just not clear at all to me. I know you're not, but it's kinda like you are making the whole of The Revelation about Daniel's 70th Week. Consider: The account of Jesus' 1000 year reign occupies some six verses of Scripture (Rev. 20:1-6). What is so hard about seeing the 2000 years of the era of the Church as occupying 34 verses of Scripture (Rev. 6:1-7:17)? For one the bold above is not logic. It's a false equivalency. Hello Diaste, The only reason I pointed out anything concerning this is because it is so popularly put forth (and accepted) that the seals are part of Daniel's 70th Week. You say "the prophecy must take place within a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7." You say "It's an unbroken foretelling of the end of age from chapter 1-22, and it's also clear it's 7 years max duration." Where is the Scripture for this? Similar to what I replied to douggg earlier in this thread, we all know that there is a lot in the prophecy of The Revelation. And, we all know that for most any prophecy, there is the time when it will begin to be fulfilled. According to my understanding, the prophecy given in The Revelation was "at hand" to begin to be fulfilled---in John's day. The Revelation is sandwiched in these words (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10). Failure to recognize that the fulfilling of the prophecy was merely going to begin in John's day is the big problem with the preterist's approach, as I see it. So, whether the time frame of The Revelation's prophecy is only the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week, then the 1000 years of Christ's reign (so some), OR, the 2000 years of the Church era, then the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week, then the 1000 years of Christ's reign---the prophecy was at hand to begin to be fulfilled. This means, it should highly concern us what was about to begin to happen in John's day. It is quite evident that Daniel's 70th Week did not begin then, as it still hasn't. But, what was to become the era of the Church did. And, evidences that the opening of the first four seals and the going forth of the four horsemen did. A hundred years of the era of the Church and the same activity. Two hundred years of it, 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000+ years of it---and the same activity. Diaste, it's in our face, even today. To me, it's like Wow! Jesus, with His warnings in the opening of His Olivet Discourse---which dovetails with the first four seals---was spot on concerning what things were going to be...in my humble opinion. So Diaste, what you are saying "is not logic" I see as being perfectly logical. And what you are saying is "a false equivalency" is just a fact that I coupled with a relevant question for you to consider. Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) On 5/24/2020 at 7:24 AM, Diaste said: On 5/22/2020 at 11:53 AM, not an echo said: Concerning "the prophecy must take place within a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7," I don't see the seals as being part of Daniel's 70th Week, nor the first five trumpets. Where are you seeing this? I don't see any scriptural evidence of the 70th Week until Rev. 11:1-3. What you are saying about "It's an unbroken foretelling of the end of age from chapter 1-22, and it's also clear it's 7 years max duration" is just not clear at all to me. I know you're not, but it's kinda like you are making the whole of The Revelation about Daniel's 70th Week. Consider: The account of Jesus' 1000 year reign occupies some six verses of Scripture (Rev. 20:1-6). What is so hard about seeing the 2000 years of the era of the Church as occupying 34 verses of Scripture (Rev. 6:1-7:17)? For one the bold above is not logic. It's a false equivalency. Two the 'church age' is a Darbyism. It doesn't exist in the Word. It was made up to help justify a doctrine Darby thought up while convalescing. Concerning "Two", my apologies Diaste if I used the phrase 'church age' for I have been trying to avoid that (though I am used to the phrase), lest some (especially you ) think I am steeped in dispensationalism---which I'm not. But, neither do I hate on those who are...I'm just not. As I look at the above portion of my post, I am not seeing my use of the phrase 'church age.' Perhaps I did elsewhere in my reply to you. I'm just kinda afraid to go back and see, as I have sometimes did that and lost the post I was working on. Ugh. In any case, I have become given to saying "the era of the Church, commonly referred to as the Church Age" when alluding to this era of history of which we are a part. I haven't said a dirty word in over 35 years, and since Church Age seems to be a dirty word for some in the Worthy Christian Forum family, I'll try to be more careful. I promise. Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 5/24/2020 at 7:24 AM, Diaste said: On 5/22/2020 at 11:53 AM, not an echo said: Concerning "the prophecy must take place within a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7," I don't see the seals as being part of Daniel's 70th Week, nor the first five trumpets. Where are you seeing this? I don't see any scriptural evidence of the 70th Week until Rev. 11:1-3. What you are saying about "It's an unbroken foretelling of the end of age from chapter 1-22, and it's also clear it's 7 years max duration" is just not clear at all to me. I know you're not, but it's kinda like you are making the whole of The Revelation about Daniel's 70th Week. Consider: The account of Jesus' 1000 year reign occupies some six verses of Scripture (Rev. 20:1-6). What is so hard about seeing the 2000 years of the era of the Church as occupying 34 verses of Scripture (Rev. 6:1-7:17)? How does explicit language of 1000 years of Christ's reign on earth in any way prove "2000 years of church"? It's like saying, "Unicorns exist because there is no evidence they don't." Of course, we know it doesn't Diaste, and I hope that my previous couple of replies to you cleared some of the air concerning this. But, conversely, how does no explicit language of "a minimum of 3.5 years or a max of 7" or "it's also clear it's 7 years max duration" in any way prove such relating to the time frame of the seals? It's like saying, "Unicorns exist because there is no evidence they don't." Uh-oh, I just echoed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, not an echo said: Good morning douggg, I still haven't seen anything concerning what you do with the 7th Seal, which is so very huge for me that I'm not really able to plug in to your chart. And, as I see it, whatever one believes about anything in The Revelation, it has to be anchored to the first three verses. It has to be. This is one of the most glaring oversights that I have encountered as I have reviewed the popular views over the decades. Again, the 7th seal events are the trumpet announced cataclysmic events by the seven angels that take place during the great tribulation. I do show the great tribulation on my chart. But there is not enough room to show each of the trumpet events on the chart. And the chart would get overly complex and busy to do so. There is one of the trumpets I do show on my chart, a very important one, the sounding of the 7th trumpet, by the seventh angel. It is very important because people get confused on where to place it during the 7 years. The last three of the trumpets, are woes to the inhabiters of the earth. Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! On my chart, I show the sounding of the seventh trumpet, by the seventh angel, which signifies the third woe. Satan cast down to earth. In Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Edited May 25, 2020 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 On 5/24/2020 at 7:24 AM, Diaste said: Quote Concerning your last sentence, I don't see a large gap between the 5th and 6th Seals at all, but rather a small gap. I see the martyrs cry, "How long, O Lord..." reflecting that a very significant amount of time has transpired, easily accounted for by the now 2000 years. And, I see what was said to them, "that they should rest yet for a little season..." reflecting that as the time of Daniel's 70th Week (a little season!) draws closer, so will the opening of this seal. And, because Daniel's 70th Week is ever drawing closer, I have no problem (at all) believing that the 5th Seal has been opened. So, for me, I see the next event to take place as being the opening of the 6th Seal---which I believe can happen before I finish replying to you (and others) today. Maybe He will! I like that thought Diaste, as then we can sit as Christ's feet together and have our hearts burn within us as He explains to us everything that we had heretofore only seen through a glass darkly. Even so come Lord Jesus! " I see the martyrs cry, "How long, O Lord..." reflecting that a very significant amount of time has transpired, easily accounted for by the now 2000 years." How do you arrive at this? It could be true. No language appears to justify any length of time has transpired other than we know a prescribed length of time will transpire between the question and "until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed." This is just another logical fallacy. The burden of proof is one the one making the assertion. A person who says, "I believe it, now prove me wrong." engages in illogic. A premise for this doesn't exist or it's incorrect. But since proving a negative is notoriously difficult there is a sense of assurance for the claimant, not that he or she will be proven correct, but that they won't be proven incorrect. I'm more of the mind that evidence must exist to establish truth. If there is no evidence for a claim it's necessarily and automatically false. This is the case here with both 2000 years of 'church age' and a large time gap implied by, "How long, O Lord..." I'm hearing you friend, I mean I really am. For me, what I am saying reflects just one little element in a lot of bigger things that I see. When I think of the martyrs of yesteryear, and especially of those of the dark days of the Middle Ages, I think that if any martyr could rightly inquire, "How long, O Lord..." it would be these. Any way you cut it, if the 5th Seal scene is of martyrs of Daniel's 70th Week, they would be in the company of all the martyrs of old. If it were I that were in such company and it were I that had just been martyred, I think I would give it up to those who had been there a bit longer to make the inquiry, "How long, O Lord..." What about you Diaste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, douggg said: 12 hours ago, not an echo said: Good morning douggg, I still haven't seen anything concerning what you do with the 7th Seal, which is so very huge for me that I'm not really able to plug in to your chart. And, as I see it, whatever one believes about anything in The Revelation, it has to be anchored to the first three verses. It has to be. This is one of the most glaring oversights that I have encountered as I have reviewed the popular views over the decades. Again, the 7th seal events are the trumpet announced cataclysmic events by the seven angels that take place during the great tribulation. I do show the great tribulation on my chart. But there is not enough room to show each of the trumpet events on the chart. And the chart would get overly complex and busy to do so. There is one of the trumpets I do show on my chart, a very important one, the sounding of the 7th trumpet, by the seventh angel. As I see it douggg (on your chart), this means you have the 7th Trumpet being sounded before the 6th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book is even removed, not to mention the 7th Seal. I wish I could be in more agreement some way, but I am not even in the proximity of being able to see this. Edited May 26, 2020 by not an echo add (on your chart) after "As I see it douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douggg Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,143 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 220 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/18/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, not an echo said: As I see it douggg, this means you have the 7th Trumpet being sounded before the 6th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book is even removed, not to mention the 7th Seal. I wish I could be in more agreement some way, but I am not even in the proximity of being able to see this. The 7th trumpet sounding by the seventh angel does take place before the 6th seal event. Significantly so, by around a time, times, half time, a little less. (I suspect that you (wrongly) think the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the seven years, as many people do?) Again FOR THE THIRD TIME. There is not enough room on the chart to show each of the cataclysmic trumpet events. Again FOR THE THIRD TIME, the cataclysmic trumpet events take place during great tribulation, which I do show the great tribulation on my chart. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________ "..... is even removed" You are speaking erroneously. The seventh seal and ALL of the seals were removed, opened by Jesus back when he opened the book, that's how everyone now can know what is in the book. It is the events in the book that have not taken place yet. Talk about the events of the seals -not whether the seals have been removed, opened, or not. Such as "the 6th seal event". Otherwise, your bible ends right here, and there is nothing but blank pages following..." Revelation 5: 1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Edited May 25, 2020 by douggg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted May 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 3 hours ago, douggg said: 3 hours ago, not an echo said: As I see it douggg, this means you have the 7th Trumpet being sounded before the 6th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book is even removed, not to mention the 7th Seal. I wish I could be in more agreement some way, but I am not even in the proximity of being able to see this. The 7th trumpet sounding by the seventh angel does take place before the 6th seal event. Significantly so, by around a time, times, half time, a little less. (I suspect that you (wrongly) think the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the seven years, as many people do?) Concerning your first sentence, I just have to disagree...totally. As I see it, what you are saying is in very serious conflict with the very apparent chronology of The Revelation. Also, I do not see the 7th Trumpet as being sounded at the end of the seven years, but at the mid-point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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