The Two Phases of Christ's Return

[not an echo]

On 4/21/2020 at 12:03 PM, ForHisGlory37 said:

On 4/21/2020 at 1:28 AM, not an echo said:

Hello ForHisGlory37 (and all),

There is a sense in which I see there being only "ONE SECOND COMING," especially from a first century perspective.  But, Scripture very plainly (and strongly) supports that Christ will make a "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:30) after the opening of the 6th Seal, and that this will be the time of the rapture.  His "ONE SECOND COMING" will take place some seven plus years after this (Rev. 19:11-16).  So, when I speak of two phases, I am borrowing from a long understood way of expressing the sum of the foregoing.  Now, if you are trying to convey with your statement that the rapture and Christ's Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon will occur at the same time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It seems that when I have said Christ's return will be "as a thief" some others have also thought that I meant even for us who are watching.  All I have ever meant by that is what Jesus (and Paul) said about it.  But, ForHisGlory37, when you say, "it will not be a sudden and unexpected return as a "thief,"  what are you meaning?  For many, and especially those who will be left behind, it will be exactly as Jesus (and Paul) said!  Are you sure you want your reply to be as it appears, or am I misunderstanding you some way?

Hello brother Echo, there was a lot of confusion when Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, those Christians thought they had missed Jesus coming back.. so he had to write 2 Thessalonians to clarify.  That goes for us as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(there is only one event)

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (there is only one day, it does not say day and another day or days.) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ( there is a great falling away of the Church.  we will be here when the antichrist comes into power and God is going to reveal who he is)

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ( Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His coming.. how can He come without destroying the antichrist when He comes, like you say the first time and then comes back for those supposed left behind???)

Hello again ForHisGlory37 (and all),

Let's look again at the passage above.  When it is "rightly" divided (II Tim 2:15), the two phases of Christ's return are even here clearly shown.  Consider afresh, from II Thessalonians 2 (with my highlights and clarifying notes):

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day (strict sense) of Christ (His Second Advent) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (again, His Second Advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

  4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

  5   Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

  6   And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

  7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:  only He (the Holy Spirit) who now letteth will let (hinder), until He be taken out of the way (with the Church at the rapture).

  8   And then shall that Wicked (the Antichrist) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (0nce again, His Second Advent):

ForHisGlory37, all Paul was saying to the Thessalonians was that the particular day of Christ's Second Advent was not "at hand" as was being rumored.  The same thing would be true if such was being rumored today.  Before Christ returns to reign, the Antichrist will be revealed and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week will transpire.  According to Paul's words, we who are a part of the Church will not see the Antichrist revealed.  While he may be alive at this time, that is different that being revealed.  The Church will be gathered to Christ during the rapture, before any of this occurs.  It is upon this very basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled!  Read the account again with this in mind.  Since the time I saw this many years ago, I have not been able to unsee it.  Hopefully this will be your experience as well.  It is such a wonderful passage. 

On 4/21/2020 at 12:03 PM, ForHisGlory37 said:

And show me where in the Scriptures does it say that some will be left behind and get another chance at redemption?  When I first became a believer as a child, there was urgency. You don't get another chance for salvation if Jesus came back.. You had to make a decision right then and there when you heard the Gospel.  We are never guaranteed tomorrow.  blessings brother!

I too, even from a child, always heard it preached that if you were left behind, not to count on having another chance.  AND THAT'S THE WAY I STILL SEE THINGS for those who are presently rejecting the message of the Gospel.  What Paul said a little further relating to our above passage of focus needs to be seriously heeded by those who continue to spurn Christ's call to salvation.  Why?  Because those that fall into this category "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (I Thess. 2:10b-12).  Blessings to you too sister!  I hope this has been helpful. 

To that person reading this who may not yet be saved, "behold, now is the day of salvation" (II Cor. 6:2b).  I so much love the last invitation given in the Bible.  It reflects so beautifully our Creator's desire for all to be saved.  Consider from Revelation 22:

 17  And the Spirit and the Bride say, come.  And let him that heareth say, come.  And let him that is athirst come.  And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/20/2020 at 11:05 PM, douggg said:

On 4/20/2020 at 6:04 PM, not an echo said:

Though we do now know how much longer the era of the Church will continue, we know that it will end with the rapture, which is shown to occur after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17, Matt. 24:29-31ff, I Thess. 4:13-5:11, II Thess. 2:1).  Therefore, as Christ's coming for the rapture is imminent, so is the Lamb's opening of this seal.  I can almost envision the Lord, upon opening this seal, coming for His Bride! 

Hi not an echo,

I think you are using the wrong indicator for the immanency of the rapture.    I don't think the rapture is found in Revelation, except for John being called up in Revelation 4 as a picture of the rapture.

Hello again douggg (and all),

Trying to do some catching up again...

I hope in time you will be able to see more clearly what I am not able to unsee.

Now, I don't see "John being called up in Revelation 4 as a picture of the rapture."  Rather, I see John's being called to "Come up hither" as his personal invite to the throne room in Heaven for the event of the Seven Sealed Book being conferred to the Lamb, Jesus Christ, to have the charge of.  And what an event it was!!!

The idea that some have that the 24 elders represent the Bride is bizarre to me (not saying that's what you believe).  Now, we can know that they were saints, for they were singing the song of the redeemed (Rev. 5:9-10).  Interestingly, some very intriguing others were also singing this song with the 24 elders!  Consider the antecedents to the pronouns "they" and "us" in 5:9 and "us" and "we" in 5:10.  Makes for a very interesting study with equally as interesting possibilities.  More on this at some other time.  Something important to remember along the way---"For now we see through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12).

Annnyway, it seems equally as bizarre to me that John would be given The Revelation to give to the seven churches concerning things that were "at hand" to begin to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3), if the only thing that truly fit that category for them concerned this 4:1 "picture of the rapture," which the Father, sitting on the throne, would have known was not coming to pass for them anyway.  (This is one of my longest sentences ever---it may need to be read twice!)

As I see it, Revelation 4:1 is not a picture of the rapture, and the 24 elders are not representative of the Bride.  But, all the saints that had crossed over (what I say of Christians who have died) to that time would have been there for John to see!  As I consider The Revelation, before it is over, John is shown all the household of God ultimately safe in glory!  First of all, those throughout all of the Old Testament days up until John's invite (Rev. 5:8-10).  Next, those of the New Testament days from that time up until the rapture of the Church (Rev. 6:9-17).  After this, the two witnesses (Rev. 11:12), then the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1-5), then those who refuse allegiance to the Antichrist (Rev. 15:1-4).  And finally, any not so accounted for are accounted for in Revelation 20:4-6.  And if not there, Revelation 21:7 (cp. I Jn. 5:4-5).  The Revelation is truly so remarkable.

So, who are the 24 elders?  Really douggg, this deserves another thread, but it fits here too.  As I see it, it easily fits that these are the heads of the twelve tribes of Israel plus the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  In other words, the Heads of Jehovah's Nation under the OLD COVENANT and the Heads of Jesus' Church under the NEW COVENANT.  It is quite apparent that these twenty-four hold a very significant place in Heaven, as John's account of what he saw concerning the New Jerusalem attests.  From Revelation 21:

 10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,

 11  Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 12  And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelves angels, and names written thereon, which are THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

 13  On the east three gates;  on the north three gates;  on the south three gates;  and on the west three gates.

 14  And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB.

In contemplation of the foregoing, if the 24 elders included the 12 apostles, why would not John's seat have been empty?  Or, if John was seeing himself in his seat (in his future), how could he not have recognized himself?

On the question of John's seat not being empty, we cannot be sure what the time frame was of what he saw, only that he was fixing to be shown things "which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).  Perhaps what John beheld was of a time shortly after his death, when he would have taken his rightful place with the other 11 apostles and 12 tribal fathers.  With The Revelation, he was certainly shown much from a future perspective!

On the question of why John would not have recognized himself, perhaps he did, or, perhaps he wasn't for sure if he did or not!  Really, there is no indication one way or the other.  Perhaps he didn't recognize himself at all, simply because he would have been seeing himself glorified.  He, along with the others, had not even recognized Jesus in His resurrection body till Jesus gave them a little help!  Recall that John had even wrote these words, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:  but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him;  for we shall see Him as He is" (I Jn. 3:2).

Another possibility is that John's invite was in real time (how I see it), for the purpose of showing him from the Throne Room what was to be hereafter.  And who knows, maybe "Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus" (Acts 1:23) was momentarily filling John's seat!  I think everyone would have been alright with that!  I can certainly see this much easier than I can see the 24 elders representing the Bride.

Of course, for those who hold to the common pre-trib view, when the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 is recognized as being the just raptured Church in Heaven, there ceases to be any need (?) to seek evidences of the Church in the 24 elders.

Well douggg, I got a little carried away, but it has been on my heart for a while to comment on Revelation 4:1.  And it does connect with this thread.  Not sure if you see the 24 elders as representing the Church, but we know that many do.

I have some thoughts on the rest of your post, but I don't have time for now.  Be back later. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by not an echo
added (what I say of Christians who have died)

[not an echo]

On 4/20/2020 at 11:05 PM, douggg said:

On 4/20/2020 at 6:04 PM, not an echo said:

Though we do now know how much longer the era of the Church will continue, we know that it will end with the rapture, which is shown to occur after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17, Matt. 24:29-31ff, I Thess. 4:13-5:11, II Thess. 2:1).  Therefore, as Christ's coming for the rapture is imminent, so is the Lamb's opening of this seal.  I can almost envision the Lord, upon opening this seal, coming for His Bride! 

Hi not an echo,

I think you are using the wrong indicator for the immanency of the rapture.    I don't think the rapture is found in Revelation, except for John being called up in Revelation 4 as a picture of the rapture.

The events of seals, as they are opened (with the exception of the 7th seal), are sequential events.     Differently, it appears that you are viewing them concurrently, going on since the first century to present.     In your view, you are flattening the events across 2000 years.    

I don't think that is the case.   But an intense period of time of the 7 year 70th week.   Given a crown, then war breaking out, then famine, then death, then martyrs, then Jesus seen in heaven - about to end it all.

Regarding the rapture, I would suggest Luke 21:34-36.    In conjunction with the parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24.

Hi again douggg,

Continuing with your statements in your second paragraph, I see the first four seals as having been opened as early as late in the first century.  I would like to encourage you to take a look at some of my threads relating to these.  Based upon the opening three verses of The Revelation, which are foundational, the members of the seven churches which were in Asia would have had good reason to be on alert for what was revealed to John to begin to take place.  Interestingly, the way I am seeing things, The Revelation has been equally as relevant for all churches, whatever the century---even our own!  The Revelation is marvelously Divine in its inspiration.  And even that is an understatement!  Have you saw my thread, What "things" were "at hand" to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3)? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251166-what-things-were-at-hand-to-come-to-pass-rev-11-3/)?  I would like to see your thoughts concerning it.  I am increasingly convinced (and dismayed) that the simplicity of The Revelation's foundation has been largely overlooked and/or dismissed.  I could go on and on.  As I have indicated elsewhere (as charitably as I know how), what is not on a solid foundation is destined to wash out.  In my thinking, a lot of the activity revolving around the defense of the popular views over the years (including the common pre-trib view) has been efforts to shore up what keeps washing out.  Of course, many good points are made, but often it seems that things end up all over the place.  I know that some may initially feel this about what I am seeing.  I can certainly understand someone being iffy about my new song.  I just hope that it is at least being found to be in tune---with Scripture, that is!  I believe there are contributions yet to be made to the truth of the matter, and as humbly as I know how to say it, I believe that the Lord has given me a contribution to make.  So, my desire is to share with other brothers and sisters in Christ what I am seeing, and my heart is this:  If what I put forth will not hold up under careful Bible scrutiny, the best place for it is the trash can.  So far, the only thing that I have discovered that it is not in harmony with is the popular views.  Well, I've chased a little rabbit.  We do that out here in Kentucky sometimes. 

Again, I see the first four seals as having been opened before the close of the first century, for reasons I have now given many times, the chief of which I have alluded to here.  Other big factors include, but are not limited to, the abundant testimony of history, Jesus' opening words in His Olivet Discourse, and the dovetailing of the Olivet Discourse with its key, The Revelation.

Concerning the 5th Seal, I have a thread concerning it also that will give more details.  But, concisely, in harmony with the martyrs question, "How long...?" (Rev. 6:10)(which reflects that a significant amount of time has transpired) and the instruction they were given to "rest yet for a little season" (Rev. 6:11), I see this seal as being opened closer to the actual time of the rapture.  This of course means that this seal can be open now, and I certainly believe that it is.

Now, I do not see the 6th or the 7th Seals as being opened yet.  I believe that the 6th Seal can be opened before I finish this sentence.  Moreover, I believe the 7th Seal will be opened later the same day, possibly minutes or hours later.  There is no time frame that prevents such a view, but as I see it, this is required in light of the cry of those left behind, "For the great day of His wrath (the Day of the Lord) is come;  and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17).  As I see it, the Seven Sealed Book concerns the Day of the Lord, and could rightly be entitled, THE DAY OF THE LORD.  So, the fact that it may be opened the same day as the 6th Seal makes for a poignant confirmation of the people's cry that "the great day of His wrath is come."  They got that right.

Concerning your last sentence, I think immediately of Luke's own account of this parable, given just a few verses prior in Luke 21:29-33.  These verses (plus verses 25-28) represent Luke's account of what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-35.  Now consider:  If what Luke records in verses 25-27 is interpreted to be of Christ's Second Coming, verse 28 can not be made to fit.  Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "nigh."  Verse 28 will only fit if verses 25-27 are understood to be of the first phase of Christ's return, or His sign appearance, which is what Jesus refers to this as according to Matthew's account (24:30).  Hope you can see what I am seeing.  Perhaps you already have. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
add link

[douggg]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Well douggg, I got a little carried away, but it has been on my heart for a while to comment on Revelation 4:1.  And it does connect with this thread.  Not sure if you see the 24 elders as representing the Church, but we know that many do.

I am going bypass who the 24 elders are and comment on  "the time is at hand" in Revelation 1:3.    It simply means that John was about to be shown (the time is at hand) what would take place in the few years before Jesus returns.    And that (the time was at hand) John was going to pass that information on to the seven church's.    And anyone else, who reads Revelation.

The timesframes of 42 months, 1260 days, a time, times, half times.... in Revelation,  are all elements of the 7 years.   The seven seals all take place during that 7 years.... the things that must "shortly come to pass", i.e. during that short time, leading up to Jesus revealed to world coming in Great Power and Glory.   

 

[douggg]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Verse 28 will only fit if verses 25-27 are understood to be of the first phase of Christ's return, or His sign appearance, which is what Jesus refers to this as according to Matthew's account (24:30).  Hope you can see what I am seeing.  Perhaps you already have.

I don't like the use of the term "first phase".     Nor "second" phase.   Sounds too much like....  Jesus's first coming was back in the 1st century.     Jesus's second coming is end times, our generation. 

 

Luke 21:26 is the sixth seal event.    Which the world will see Jesus in the third heaven before the Throne of God (the sign of the Son of Man in heaven).    Corresponding to Matthew 24:29, and Matthew 24:30a (the sign of the Son of Man in heaven).

I show it on my chart down at the bottom.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now, I do not see the 6th or the 7th Seals as being opened yet. 

Well, all of the seals were removed by Jesus, as John looked on.    The events though, of any of the seals have not begun yet.   

If you want to put the seventh seal in Revelation 8:1- initiating the trumpet judgements to begin in the middle of the 7 years, I am okay with that.    The thing though is that after the seventh seal was opened, visions continued to be seen by John, some of which are historic, some during John's time, most during the end times, and some into eternity.

I would not want to put the seventh seal on a timeline for that reason.

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 4/24/2020 at 1:59 AM, douggg said:

On 4/23/2020 at 5:13 PM, not an echo said:

Well douggg, I got a little carried away, but it has been on my heart for a while to comment on Revelation 4:1.  And it does connect with this thread.  Not sure if you see the 24 elders as representing the Church, but we know that many do.

I am going bypass who the 24 elders are and comment on  "the time is at hand" in Revelation 1:3.    It simply means that John was about to be shown (the time is at hand) what would take place in the few years before Jesus returns.    And that (the time was at hand) John was going to pass that information on to the seven church's.    And anyone else, who reads Revelation.

The timesframes of 42 months, 1260 days, a time, times, half times.... in Revelation,  are all elements of the 7 years.   The seven seals all take place during that 7 years.... the things that must "shortly come to pass", i.e. during that short time, leading up to Jesus revealed to world coming in Great Power and Glory.   

Hi douggg (and all),

Hope everything is well with everyone in the face of the coronavirus pandemic...

Concerning the first paragraph of your response, interestingly, The Revelation is sandwiched in the phrase, "the time is at hand."  First of all, in the opening of The Revelation, or it's foundation, in chapter 1:

  3   Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:  for the time is at hand.

Lastly, in it's finishing, in chapter 22 (wondering if you missed this, as I believe most have):

 10  And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:  for the time is at hand.

As I see it, it should be obvious that the words of blessing in 1:3 are words directed to the readers and the hearers of The Revelation, not words to John concerning what he was "about to be shown" as you are saying.  On the other hand, what is said in 22:10 is indeed to John.  Question:  Was John at this time "about to be shown (the time is at hand) what would take place in the few years before Jesus returns"???

To the contrary, the instruction John is here given supports what I have been stressing all along.  Whereas Daniel was explicitly told of his writings, "shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end" (Dan. 12:4), John was explicitly told just the opposite---"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:  for the time is at hand" (Rev. 22:10).  So, again, when it is considered what "things" were "at hand" to begin to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3/The Foundation), the first "things" that rightly go into this category concern the seals of the Seven Sealed Book.  In light of this, there is no need to look further than the seals, until it is realized what they represent.  What in the world do the seals represent?  John writes of the first six in chapter six, and when but a cursory survey is made of these, it is easily discernible that there is no evidence of the 6th Seal ever having been opened.  So, we can back up.  When we look at the 5th Seal, it is easy to discern that it is a scene in Heaven.  So, we can back up again.  This brings our focus to bear upon the the 4th Seal, and its horseman---and the 3rd Seal and its horseman---and the 2nd Seal and its horseman---and the 1st Seal and its horseman.  Hmm...four horsemen.  We know that parallels have been made between the opening words of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and these first four seals countless times.  Then, when history is allowed to take the stand and give its testimony...well, this juror is not fooled.  This juror (yours truly) would like to give you (and all his fellow jurors) a special invite to look afresh at the four horsemen and the expos'e of them that he has presented in his respective threads concerning each.

Again douggg, I hope you are beginning to see a little more clearly what I am not able to unsee.

Concerning your second paragraph, which begins, "The timesframes of 42 months, 1260 days, a time, times, half times.... in Revelation,  are all elements of the 7 years.   The seven seals all take place during that 7 years....", yes, I certainly see the first sentence as you do.  But, not so with the second sentence.  The 7 years do not begin until after the "little book" of Daniel is opened in Revelation 10.  When it is opened (which is what chapter 10 is all about), we see the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having begun in the first three verses of chapter 11, even verse one (cp. II Thess. 2:4).  There is zero evidence of Daniel's 70th Week prior to this.  Zero.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[douggg]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I see it, it should be obvious that the words of blessing in 1:3 are words directed to the readers and the hearers of The Revelation, not words to John concerning what he was "about to be shown" as you are saying. 

I think I am right.    A little further down in the text (instructions to John)....

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[douggg]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, which begins, "The timesframes of 42 months, 1260 days, a time, times, half times.... in Revelation,  are all elements of the 7 years.   The seven seals all take place during that 7 years....", yes, I certainly see the first sentence as you do.  But, not so with the second sentence.  The 7 years do not begin until after the "little book" of Daniel is opened in Revelation 10.  When it is opened (which is what chapter 10 is all about), we see the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having begun in the first three verses of chapter 11, even verse one (cp. II Thess. 2:4).  There is zero evidence of Daniel's 70th Week prior to this.  Zero.

Your interpretation of the seals - disregards the sequential appearance of the four horsemen, as things get progressively worse.

You have the riders as being concurrent across 2000 years.   And not in order.    Wars, famine, pestilences, chaotically taking place.    I don't see any difference in your interpretation, and what has been the case of all of man's history prior to then as well.

In my interpretation, the rider on the white horse is the prince who shall come, given a crown, anointed the King of Israel, the Antichrist.    Who confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.  Beginning the 7 year 70th week.

Which things then get progressively worse, in the sequence of the other riders.

On my chart, I show the placement of the horsemen.    But if you were to make a chart of the 2000 years in your interpretation, you could not do the same.... because there were wars, famine, pestilences going on in different parts of the world even in Jesus's time.... and before.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 4/26/2020 at 1:04 AM, douggg said:

On 4/25/2020 at 7:47 PM, not an echo said:

As I see it, it should be obvious that the words of blessing in 1:3 are words directed to the readers and the hearers of The Revelation, not words to John concerning what he was "about to be shown" as you are saying. 

I think I am right.    A little further down in the text (instructions to John)....

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Hi again douggg (and all),

You are correct concerning what is said "A little further down in the text".  Revelation 1:19 is indeed spoken specifically to John!  But, your take on Revelation 1:3 is not correct.  Consider again your post concerning that...

On 4/24/2020 at 1:59 AM, douggg said:

I am going bypass who the 24 elders are and comment on  "the time is at hand" in Revelation 1:3.    It simply means that John was about to be shown (the time is at hand) what would take place in the few years before Jesus returns.    And that (the time was at hand) John was going to pass that information on to the seven church's.    And anyone else, who reads Revelation.

Again, the word of blessing in 1:3 is directed to the readers and the hearers of The Revelation concerning "things" that were "at hand" to begin to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3).  Now, to the readers and hearers---which included the members of the seven churches and all Christ's "servants" from that day until now (that includes us douggg)---we see the instructions "a little further down in the text" which were given to John---words that are of the utmost importance for us to take note of.  Again, he is told, "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev. 1:19).  We know that whatever is spoken of in the past tense or the present tense cannot shortly come to pass.  It is only whatever is spoken of in the future tense that can shortly come to pass, or begin to come to pass.  Important to remember is that for most anything that is going to come to pass, there is the time when it will begin to come to pass.

So, we are back to what John was shown that would be "hereafter."  Concisely, in Revelation 4:1 we all have our cue for where to begin looking for information concerning these things.  Here, John was given his invite to "Come up hither" (not related to the rapture) so that he might be shown those things "which must be hereafter."  What he beholds from 4:2 through 5:14 revolves around the event of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) being given the Seven Sealed Book and the charge of it.  This is the prelude to John being shown what was to be hereafter.  It is not until the Lamb opens the first seal of that Seven Sealed Book that John beholds something that was to be hereafter.

Now, I've said all the foregoing in this post to convey once again what follows.  First of all, The Revelation was given to show unto the servants of Christ "things which must shortly come to pass."  Secondly, Christ's servants are told that "the time is at hand" for that that was to be revealed to begin to come to pass (Rev. 1:1-3).  Coupled with this, prior to chapter six, there is nothing revealed that will rightly go into the category of something that could have been looked for to come to pass.  Therefore, it only remains that if Christians were going to be on the lookout for some things to begin to happen, the only appropriate place to look concerning those things would have been towards the seals of that Seven Sealed Book and what those seals represented.  This, in turn, would mean that at least one or more of the seals was about to be opened.  I think of how with most movies, it is really helpful to catch the first five minutes.  This is like those first five minutes!

Once again douggg, I hope you are beginning to see what I am not able to unsee.  Correctly understanding the first three verses of The Revelation are so foundational to a correct understanding of what is written therein.  Whatever is not built on this foundation is built on sand.  Let me say further, a lot of nice looking structures that have been built on a bad foundation are salvageable.  Said another way, a lot of nice looking structures that have been built on a bad foundation would be both nice and solid, if the foundation was just made right.  Hope you are hearing me.  

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo