The Revelation Is Our God Given Prophetic Grid

[not an echo]

The Revelation is hands down the most comprehensive account of the last days in the Bible.  As I see it, it is also in chronological order (see my thread, The Chronological Order Of The Revelation), and if this is so, it becomes a grid, given to us by God, into which every end time prophecy will fit and find its order.  Said another way, if this is so, when all end time prophecies have been fulfilled, it will be found that nothing will have occurred outside of this order.  Also, if The Revelation is indeed such a grid, we need to recognize the great value of this and utilize it in our work of interpretation.  Here's a link to the above thread: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).

One example of the benefit of utilizing a grid would be in attempting to put a 1000 piece puzzle together that has come in a box that has no picture on it.  A good strategy in putting such a puzzle together would be to get all the straight edged pieces together and to lay out the perimeter.  This would become a sort of grid and would be most valuable.  If the puzzle was determined to be a scenery puzzle, it could be oriented so that the sky line would be positioned at the top.  And, if there is a mountain, the mountain ridge could be put in place, and this would add to the grid.  From here, you would at least know that you were headed in the right direction.  Though you might still wonder concerning the correct placement of some pieces, you would know that the blue sky pieces won't be going toward the bottom, and any rock, critter, or stream pieces wont' be going in the sky area.  With time, patience, and effort, the puzzle would begin to fill in, and when complete, you could rightly accept by faith that what is before you would match the true picture.

The Revelation and other related prophecies is like such a puzzle, and one must accept by faith that what is being believed will likewise match the true picture that will one day be revealed.  It is of the utmost importance though, how we arrive at our conclusions, for many are working on this puzzle, but everyone is not coming up with the same picture.  Why?  There are many possibilities, which can range from pieces being left out or being put where they do not belong, to portions being taken as a whole.  Whatever the case, it is only when all the pieces that can be found are brought together and understood in such a way that everything will harmonize, or fit the Bible's grid, that a view can be considered plausible or sound.  Extreme care must be taken against interpreting a questionable or obscure passage in such a way that a view is built that is contrary to any clear Scripture.  Any interpretation (even one that I may have ) that will not meet this criteria, should be abandoned for one that will.

The interpretations that I have put forth on Worthy Christian Forums have been ordered, and sometimes arrived at, on the basis of my conviction that The Revelation is our God given prophetic grid.  Admittedly, with some key prophecies that have been interpreted various ways by others, my regard for this grid has held a lot of sway in my own interpretations.  But, if The Revelation is truly such a grid, this should hold a lot of sway.  Indeed, if it is such a grid, our interpretations (the sum of which becomes a view) need to be checked against this grid for soundness.

NOTE:  I later developed a master thread concerning A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, of which the above is a part.  Here is a link to that thread, which includes more information on this interpretation and a running list of all the other threads I have which pertain to it: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
add links

[Hindsfeet77]

Yes, like a legacy key, for which we can then start pulling from both OT and NT (amazing seeing them match up) and filling in pieces to a vignette.

I will never grow tired of His wonderous Word!

[douggg]

On 4/24/2020 at 1:15 PM, not an echo said:

One example of the benefit of utilizing a grid would be in attempting to put a 1000 piece puzzle together that has come in a box that has no picture on it.  A good strategy in putting such a puzzle together would be to get all the straight edged pieces together and to lay out the perimeter.  This would become a sort of grid and would be most valuable.  I

You mean like this?    All the like expressions of time are put in their appropriate half.

first half (the heads have crowns, the horns no crowns)
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half (the heads no crowns, one head mortally wounded/healed, the horns have crowns)
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half times - Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:7

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And when applied in chapter 11

1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the seven years.

And when applied in chapter 12

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + the time, times, half time = the seven years.

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And the heads and horns, crowns no crowns.   on the grid

Revelation 17, the beast in the bottomless pit - heads no crowns, horns no crowns - back in John's day

Revelation 12, the beast still in the bottomless pt at the start of the seven years - head crowns (king 7 come to power), horns no crowns

Revelation 13, the beast (a spirit, has come out of the bottomless pit) to possess the slain andcome back to life king 7, who continues the short space of 42 months as king 8.       heads no crowns (the prophecy of 7 kings over), horns crowns, the ten kings to rule with the person now the beast

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

You err by saying that no crowns on both the heads and horns means that is before the 10 kings have come to power.  But Rev 12 tells us what things look like before the 10 kings come to power...a dragon with 7 crowns upon his 7 heads. 

In Revelation 12 and Revelation 17, Satan is featured in those chapters with the heads and horns because the beast in Revelation 17:8a is in the bottomless pit, and cannot be seen.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left, the beast in the bottomless pit has come out and is possessing the end times king (the recovered and mortally wounded king 7) - who has become king 8.

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In Revelation 12, which except for the first five verses which are historic to identify the woman as Israel, contain the seven years.    Satan will be cast down to earth during those 7 years in Revelation 12:7-9.

Here is why I am not in error as you suggest.    The ten kings don't have crowns in Revelation 12, not because they have not come to power already, but because they rule with the beast king 8 with 42 months left.    The person does not become the beast until Revelation 13, the last 42 months.    The crowns on the ten kings signify their ruling with the person when he becomes the beast.    It does not mean that they have not come to power earlier, even before the 7 years begin.

Which is why the ten horns have crowns in Revelation 13, because they are going to rule with beast; the caveat is that hand their kingdom over to the beast to be dictator of their kingdom.

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The ten kings (end time kings) are in power before the seven years begin in Revelation 12, and the little horn will have come out from among them to be king 7, before the seven years begin.    I am getting that from Daniel 7.    

As the person becomes king 7, it completes the prophecy of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10.   Which is why there are crowns on the heads in Revelation 12.    The prophecy has become complete before the 7 years begin.

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Now moving to Revelation 13, there are no crowns on the heads, because king 7 will have been killed, ending the prophecy of the 7 kings.

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Part of the mystery in interpreting the imagery is that there are three persons involved with that imagery.    Deals have been apparently cut.   Remember how Satan wanted to cut a deal with Jesus, to give him all the kingdoms of the earth?

Person 1.  Satan (featured in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12, because the beast (the ancient person) is in the bottomless pit, and has not come out).

Person 2. The ancient person, in the bottomless pit, which I think that beast is the original serpent in Genesis 3, who was used by Satan, as apparently a deal was struck that the serpent become ruler, if he took part in getting Adan and Eve to fall.

Person 3.  The end times person, i.e. known as the little horn (king 7), the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the beast (king 8).

king 7 of the Roman Empire, EU leader, before the 7 years start.

the Antichrist - king of Israel, sandwiched in between for about 3 years.

king 8 of  the Roman Empire, EU dictator.   The beast, possessed by the beast.   For the last 42 months.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

You are missing the point that the 4th beast is to be ruled by 2 different kings. He says that ANOTHER shall arise:

(Dan 7:24)  And the ten horns out of THIS KINGDOM are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise AFTER them(the 10 horns); and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire.    The another from among the group of ten kings is the little horn person king 7.

 

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

There are 2 kings that will rule over this kingdom.  First will be the little horn.  Then the beast will be destroyed and ascend from the bottomless pit.

The little horn person is king 7 of the 7kings in Revelation 17:10.    That king when he comes continues a short space, as it says in Revelation 17:10.   

That short space is the 42 months as king 8.... the beast.

The beast in Revelation 17:8a and Revelation 17:8b is what involves two persons (making up the beast in Revelation 13), but not two kings.        One king - king 8.   As the end times person, the beast, possessed by the spirit of the beast (the serpent) that comes out of the bottomless pit

The person in Revelation 17:8a was already in the bottomless pit at the time of John.   And is presently a disembodied spirit.      Which in my view is the original serpent in Genesis 3.    

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

 

The person in Revelation 17b is the end times person (the little horn), that the world will witness being killed and come back to life.

 and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

I have borrowed most of this from the opening post of my thread, The Chronological Order Of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  I have added some illustrations here that I will add to my other thread as well.  I hope everyone will find this helpful. 

I believe we can all agree that a very important consideration in the study of any end time view is the question of the order in which The Revelation was given to John.  I have long been deeply inclined to believe that it was given in true chronological order, and now I can see it no other way.

For example, as I see it, the first 10 chapters are in the strictest chronological order possible. One thing leads into another thing, which leads into another thing, and so forth throughout the first 10 chapters---without fail. No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Basically, there is the introduction, followed by the letters to the seven churches, followed by a vision of God and the Lamb, followed by the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, followed by the sounding of the first six (of seven) trumpets, followed by John's account of an angel that he saw, who had in his hand "a little book open."  Following is an illustration of how straightforward the first 10 chapters are laid out:

Beginning with chapter 11, there is a difference in the manner in which John records things.  This difference is closely related to what he writes concerning the 7th Trumpet in verses 15-19, for what he here records is like a concise overview of what will be taking place throughout the next several chapters.  More precisely, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that takes in everything John sees from the time of its sounding in chapter 11 until after the Last Judgment in chapter 20.  In accord with the way the Bible's chapters are divided (which I attribute to the hand of God!), it appears that after John is given the brief overview of this period, he uses an overlapping method of recording all of the details of it---again, without fail.  While the order of this section is still chronological, portions of some events are revealed from different angles along the way, making for some overlaps of information, as could be expected.  Because of this, it is not quite as simple to recognize the order of this section, but there is a definite pattern and progression of events.  It is there, and recognizing this is an important key to understanding the chronology of The Revelation.  A survey of the main details given in each chapter covering the 7th Trumpet period will show that, aside from the mentioned overlaps of some information, the events recorded in this half of The Revelation are also in strict chronological order---just like with the first half.  Following is an illustration of the overlapping method in which chapters 11 through 20 are laid out:

Finally, the last two chapters of The Revelation also continue chronologically, but as a whole, and reveal John's vision of God's Heaven and the conclusion of The Revelation, as well as The Bible:

Simplified further, that's 10 chapters with no overlapping pattern, 10 chapters with an overlapping pattern, and two chapters as a unit.

Simplified further, and very memorable, that's 10, 10, and 2.

I must say, from the time I first began to notice this, it's like it begged to be made known.  The Revelation has a most awesome structure.  This should not surprise us, it being from God.  And for me, once seen, it can't be unseen.  I believe it will be worth everyone's while to take a closer look.   More later.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations and add link

[douggg]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Rev. 17:1-6 is a picture, his vision of the beast that is being ridden by the woman.  Mystery Babylon is where the children of Zion will come to after Jerusalem is destroyed and burned.  

John sees a scarlet colored beast - Satan.    Satan is seen because the actual beast in Revelation 17:8a is in the bottomless pit.   And the beast in Revelation 17:8b had still not come, future end times.

Satan's kingdom is mystery Babylon the Great.    It is a spiritual kingdom that has been ruling over the nations of the earth.

The whore has the inscription on her forehead because she has been influenced by Satan's kingdom.    To persecute Christians (the inquisition) and teach false doctrine.

The whore is the Vatican, which the ten kings will eventually destroy, by burning it to the ground.

Jerusalem is not going to be destroyed by fire.   Jesus, in Zechariah 14, returns to Jerusalem, being held captive by the beast and his armies.

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In Revelation 18, Babylon is fallen is fallen is talking about the demise of Satan's spiritual kingdom, as Satan and his angels come crashing down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, just past the mid-point of the 7 years.

The great trading city in Revelation 18 is not a literal city, but is an analogy likening Satan's kingdom to the demise of a great trading city.

It cannot be a literal city because it is responsible for the deaths of all slain upon the earth, which would go back to the time Cain slew Abel. 

"come out of her my people" - is not to be a party to the agenda of Satan's kingdom.

Edited April 26, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10

If there is not repeat of the seven years, there would be....in Revelation 11, followed by Revelation 12.....

42 months +1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 1260 days + time for the war in the second heaven + a times, times, half time.

Total, that would be 14 year plus.   ding!  ding! ding!   "error"   Can you hear that bell going off?

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Your approach is wrong.

Construct a timeline chart, by placing the events in Revelation and other end times passages on the chart at the appropriate places on the timeline.

Or, as I mentioned before, I can save you about 50 years, if you use my chart....

It doesn't take that long to follow down through the red critical path of the events from the start of the 7 year 70th week to the end at Jesus's Return.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

45 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

How can the 4th beast/4th kingdom be Rome when John says that the beast IS NOT and you say that the "beast that John saw" was in the bottomless pit? 

I don't connect a kingdom as being "was and is not",   nor  "was, is not, yet is".    

I don't not use the argument or term "revived Roman empire".      I do say that the EU is the Roman Empire in the end times.    The fourth kingdom.

 

It would be helpful if you reference the exact verse(s) which you are referring to.

In Revelation 13, the beast is a referral to a person,(who has been killed and come back to life);  and the beast also represents the kingdom of that person, represented by the composite makeup.    My interpretation is that with 42 months left in 7 years, the EU will have gained control of all of the territories once held by the three historic kingdoms in Daniel 7.

In Revelation 17:8a the beast is referring to a person, not a kingdom

In Revelation 17:8b the beast is referring to a (different) person, not a kingdom

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In both Revelation 17 and Revelation 12, Satan is seen because the person in Revelation 17:8a is still in the bottomless pit.

Revealation 17 is first century.

Revelation 12 is the seven years.

In Revelation 13, it is not Satan, with horns and heads, because the person in Revelation 17:8a has come out of the bottomless pit and is possessing the end times person (who will have been killed, and come back to life).

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

48 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Jerusalem IS going to be destroyed and desolate for 42 months, Rev 11:2. 

Not destroyed, but occupied.

You have the whore in Revelation 17, identified wrong.   It is not Jerusalem.

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The beast, the false prophet, the statue image of the beast (incarnated by Satan) - will all be on the temple mount when Jesus returns to the Mt. Olives, splitting it in half, and the Jews held as hostages escape through the valley.

The statue image of the beast will be disintegrated to ashes, exposing Satan there on the temple mount, and them who had been worshiping the image will gasp.    I get that from Ezekiel 28:18-20.

It doesn't say in the text, but it then appears that some portal will open and the beast and false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, as the armies surrounding the temple mount, backed up across the expanse of Israel looks on.

Then Jesus speaks words of judgment, and the armies all fall dead.

Then a lone angel descends to the temple mount, where Satan will be standing, and takes a chain and binds him, and it appears another portal will then be opened, and Satan cast into the bottomless pit.

Edited April 26, 2020 by douggg