David1701 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.53 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 hours ago, LuftWaffle said: The reference to worms not dying is about the slain wicked, not a metaphor for guilt. Those upon whom the worms feed are dead, not people living forever in torment. Unquenchable fire refers to a fire that cannot be stopped until it has completely consumed that which it burns. Both these references offer better support annihilationism, not eternal conscious torment. Gehenna (hell) was a rubbish dump, just outside Jerusalem, which was continually burning and never consumed all the rubbish, because more was continually being added. The fire of hell will likewise keep "burning" the sinners and will never stop, because more and more sin is continually being added. Jesus said that the fire is NOT quenched... Regarding the "worms" - they never die (i.e. they are not literal worms but a metaphor). If they had been literal worms, feeding on dead physical flesh, then that would not have been something to warn anyone about, since it is normal. Your objections are, frankly, ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,529 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 4 hours ago, LuftWaffle said: In terms of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. This parable has no bearing on the ultimate fate of the unsaved as illustrated clearly by the fact that the rich man wishes to warn his brothers who are still alive. whether parable or not has no bearing for truth in it must be total or Jesus would be lying... the initial point of discussion is conscience torment without end.... here in this we have conscience torment up and to final judgment. 4 hours ago, LuftWaffle said: At best this parable is a depiction of Sheol where the unsaved await judgement. This makes no reference on what happens to the unsaved after judgement, which is what this discussion is about. What ever reason one might use in the final judgment we know for sure those there at that time (great white throne) those present will have been suffering up an to that time and to say God would not do eternal conscience torment is really more a wishful thinking than leading of Scripture.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,529 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 hours ago, LuftWaffle said: In my soapbox debate with Shiloh on this topic I actually used this as part of the case for annihilationism. Throughout the Old Testament God punished the unsaved and the wicked through death and extinction. There is no extinction taught in Scripture... there is removal from and continuance elsewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 48 minutes ago, David1701 said: Gehenna (hell) was a rubbish dump, just outside Jerusalem, which was continually burning and never consumed all the rubbish, because more was continually being added. The fire of hell will likewise keep "burning" the sinners and will never stop, because more and more sin is continually being added. Gehenna refers to the Valley of the sons of Hinnom which Jeremiah describes will become a 'valley of slaughter'. "So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room." - Jer 7:32 There is no scriptural evidence that Jesus was referring to fires that couldn't consume rubbish when he referred to Gehenna. This is pure speculation on the part of some theologians. The problem with the idea that people continually sin in hell, poses a huge problem for those holding to eternal conscious torment because it argues that God's justice will never be satisfied and that a God who abhors sin, somehow allows it to continue forever. Quote Jesus said that the fire is NOT quenched... To quench a fire is to put it out before it has consumed what it burns. To quench a fire is to put it out before it burns out. In Jewish tradition it was considered shameful for a corpse to be consumed and not given a proper burial. All the verses referring to fires not being quenched, maggots not dying before they've consumed the body. Birds not being frightened away before they've consumed a body (see below) and even a body 'seeing' corruption all refer to shameful death and destruction. "Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away." "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind" - Isa 66:24 Quote Regarding the "worms" - they never die (i.e. they are not literal worms but a metaphor). If they had been literal worms, feeding on dead physical flesh, then that would not have been something to warn anyone about, since it is normal. See Isa 66:24 above. It's definitely referring to dead bodies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,529 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 when one departs from the hermeneutic of the Scriptures one can force eisegesis onto any written portion thereof... The eternal existence of mankind can be clearly seen here Gen 1:27 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. KJV thus the image of is dependent upon that which it images which being God one must only ask- how long will God last Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 57 minutes ago, enoob57 said: whether parable or not has no bearing for truth in it must be total or Jesus would be lying... the initial point of discussion is conscience torment without end.... here in this we have conscience torment up and to final judgment. My point is that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus doesn't discuss what happens to the unsaved after the final judgement because it takes place while the rich man's brothers are still alive. If you are going to offer scripture to show that the ultimate fate of the unsaved is eternal conscious torment, then the scripture you offer should at the very least refer to the ultimate fate of the unsaved, not what happens before that. The parable also doesn't discuss the duration of the rich man's predicament, so all it really shows is that the man is tormented at some point in time, between the first death and judgement. It doesn't speak to the issue we're discussing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: There is no extinction taught in Scripture... there is removal from and continuance elsewhere... "if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;" - 2Pe 2:6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,529 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 minute ago, LuftWaffle said: My point is that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus doesn't discuss what happens to the unsaved after the final judgement because it takes place while the rich man's brothers are still alive. If you are going to offer scripture to show that the ultimate fate of the unsaved is eternal conscious torment, then the scripture you offer should at the very least refer to the ultimate fate of the unsaved, not what happens before that. The parable also doesn't discuss the duration of the rich man's predicament, so all it really shows is that the man is tormented at some point in time, between the first death and judgement. It doesn't speak to the issue we're discussing at all. The point of my comment is we know there has been suffering since the time of Christ 2000 plus years now awaiting the final judgment and your saying God would not do this forever... the leading of Scripture is clear... no matter the will of the one reading it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,322 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,529 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said: "if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;" - 2Pe 2:6 your taking a earthly presence of cities and comparing to souls imaged in God's Persons I think that a huge apple and orange issue! To dismiss the sheol they are in is definitely departing from text... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, enoob57 said: when one departs from the hermeneutic of the Scriptures one can force eisegesis onto any written portion thereof... The eternal existence of mankind can be clearly seen here Gen 1:27 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. KJV thus the image of is dependent upon that which it images which being God one must only ask- how long will God last Do humans being share every attribute of God, because they're created in the Image of God? I wish I had a coin for every time someone used the Imago Dei as a placeholder for whatever attribute of God they want to pick and assign to human beings. It seems you're picking 'Immortality' from the Imago Dei to assign to human beings, but the Bible clearly states that God alone is immortal, and in numerous places immortality is a gift given only to the saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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