How many resurrections are there?

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's just follow John's Chronology rather than myth or human imagination: shall we?

Paul shows us a coming ONLY to the air, to call up the saints. WHEN? Paul tells us  just before God's wrath begins. In other words, Rapture/wrath, with no time between.  (1 Thes. 4 & 5)

Yes, this is exactly how it will be. But there will be a resurrection that occurs first. 

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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Then comes the Day of the Lord and the start of Wrath (6th seal).

There is no resurrection before the 6th seal. 

If you believe their will be, provide the scripture reference.

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Then comes the 70th week, marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

You left out the resurrection of the saints and wicked in Rev 14:16 & Rev 14:19.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

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Then comes the events of Rev. 17 and 18. 

The events of Rev 17 & 18 are a recapitulation of the 6th vial that was poured out (Rev 16:12-15).

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Then comes Rev. 19 with the Marriage and  supper.

Rev 19 is a recapitulation of Rev 16:17-21

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Finally, after all this, Jesus comes to earth WITH His  saints. (Rev. 19)

 

 

Yes, they were resurrected to be with him in Rev 14:16

 

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Then will come the parable of the Tares, and the judgment of the nations: the sheep and goats: to choose WHO will  enter the Kingdom.

 

 

No, sheep and goats were sorted in Rev 14:16 & Rev 14:19. So the sheep are already with the Lord. The righteous will not face the Judgement.

But the goats are about to get destroyed.

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Then Jesus will rule with the saints for the thousand year reign of Christ. (REv. 20)

 

No, this has already happened before the great tribulation period.

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After that Satan is loosed for a season and then fire destroys all those coming against God.

Satan was loosed from the bottomless pit in (Rev 11:7) & (Rev 17:8)

 

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Then the Great White Throne judgment: the old heaven and earth disappear.

After this judgment, eternity with a NEW Heaven and earth. 

 

Yes, Exactly

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Where people miss it: trying to force the scriptural TWO more comings in to ONE: it does not work: never has - never will.

 Where was the other coming?  We only have the one coming in Rev 14 and he was still here until the saints were caught up to meet him in the air and when all the 7 vials were poured out, he came down with the saints and destroyed the wicked. The beast and FP was thrown in the LoF in Rev 19:20 and the dragon was thrown in with them in Rev 20:10, and now it's the GWT of judgement.

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Next, due to the above, people try to force Paul's rapture in that coming WITH His saints. It does not work: never has, and never will. 

The things people try to force, is just silly. We all know Paul's rapture is in Rev 14:16 which includes the resurrection that happened 1st. Then those that were alive and remain were changed and caught up to meet them with the Lord in the air.

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ANY theory that must rearrange this scriptural chronology will end up being proven wrong. 

Yes, every time.

 

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The TRUTH: Jesus spends the entire 70th week in heaven, and the bride of Christ will be there with Him. 

The bride will not be there until just before the end of the 42 weeks of Satan.

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The Old Testament saints will rise at the 7th vial that ends the week: along with the Two Witnesses and those beheaded during the week.

 Yeah, well all the saints are resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord before any vials are poured out. God will never destroy the righteous with the wicked.

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BOTH the New testament saints and the Old Testament saints will return WITH HIM as shown in Rev. 19 to Armageddon. 

Amen! You are spot on.

[TMarcum]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you believe a "resurrection" will be done with a sickle?

The sickle is figurative language used to refer to gathering the wheat of the harvest and the burning the chaff. The tares are gathered with a sickle as well.

The wheat is gathered using a sickle and wheat is put in his garner. The garner is heaven.

The angel who had power over fire is the one with the sickle who gathered for God's winepress. That will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you see Jesus bringing ANYTHING except the saints who have previously died in Christ with Him? 

He will be bringing with him new Jerusalem. That is the place he went to prepare.

 

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He is coming in 1 thes. ONLY for His saints: and He does not touch down - but remains in the air. Once the saints are caught up, He returns back to heaven to the homes he has prepared.

When he comes in 1 thess 4, the resurrection happens 1st before those that are alive are caught up with the Lord in the air. But the resurrection also included the wicked that won't be raised up to meet the Lord in the air.

He doesn't return back to heaven before destroying the wicked (Rev 19:20)

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It is a prefect picture of an ancient Jewish wedding.  ONLY PAUL got the revelation of WHEN and that those alive would be caught up. Therefore, to answer the question WHEN, we must believe Paul. In 1 thes. 5 Paul is clear that his gathering (the rapture) will come JUST before wrath and the Day of wrath.  Paul places the rapture and the Day of the Lord as back to back events that cannot be separated: the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of the Lord.

 

The gathering of the rapture will follow the resurrection. And yes, it's right before the final wrath of God (7 vials).

 

 

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There is only ONE PLACE this fits in Revelation, and that is just before the wrath begins at the 6th seal. And that, my friend, is before any part of the 70th week begins. the entire week is wrath. You are right, this passage in chapter 14 follows right after Jesus telling them He was going (back to heaven.)

 

 

The only thing that happens at the end of the 6th seal is the saints are sealed, and Satan is set loose from the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition. There is no resurrection until after the tribulation of those Days (Matthew 24:29). Keep in mind, the great tribulation period (7 trumpets)

and the day of the wrath of God (7 vials) are 2 separate periods

 

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Did you notice that He told Peter and the others that they would FOLLOW latter? Follow WHERE? Of course to the very same place Jesus went to be: back to heaven. 

Well, Jesus was signifying regarding what manner of death they would suffer, when Jesus said that they would follow.

 

[TMarcum]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Very true. But WHICH coming: when the scriptures show us two more comings. Our disagreement will be WHEN in relation to John's narrative in Revelation. Paul said it would be just before the day of Wrath or the day of the Lord: Rev. 6 and the 6th seal.  

 

Paul is right. The resurrection of the just and unjust is shown in (Rev 14:16) & (Rev 14:19). This is minutes before the day of wrath. The 7 vials will literally be poured out in one day. The destruction of Babylon was in 1 hour.

Rev 18
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

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Keep in mind,  Paul is giving us a SUMMARY: not touching on every event as Revelation does. For example, "Christ the firstfruits, afterword...." Paul did not tell us 2000 years afterword. 

Then "His coming" and "then..." What is between "His coming" and "the end?" WE can't or shouldn't form doctrine from isolated verses: every theory must be tested with ALL end times scriptures. 

Where is this "the end" Paul is talking about? John does not tell us, but we could guess it would be after the great, white throne judgment at the time of the New Heaven and Earth. 

What then does Revelation show us BETWEEN "His coming (FOR His saints) and the New heaven and earth? Everything in Revelation from chapter 8 to chapter 21. 

 

Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept (those who died before he rose). So the order of the resurrection is Christ, the first to be risen eternally. Then those that are his at his coming (Rev 14:14). Then cometh the end when he shall deliver his kingdom to God (Rev 14:16). The end is really at the (7th vial) in (Rev 16:17-21), but there are recapitulation in Rev 17, Rev 18, Rev 19, & Rev 20 until we get to the GWT of judgment. 

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You are totally ignoring John and what He has written.

At first mention, the 144,000 are VERY MUCH ALIVE and on earth, and are being sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments. And my friend, this is future to US TODAY - so almost 2000 years from when Jesus rose from the dead.  In other words, my missed it big time here. 

 

 

I am not ignoring them. These are souls that John saw. They were the firstfruits that were redeemed when Christ rose from the dead. John saw them being redeemed by Jesus. To be redeemed does not mean resurrected. They were sealed in Jesus and their souls were with him, kept securely. 

Now this is important. I would like you to study this. The ones that John saw in (Rev 7:1-17) are the exact same group as we are seeing in (Rev 14:1-5). When John saw them in heaven, he saw their souls REDEEMED. Their body's are still in the ground until (Rev 14:16), at the end of the same chapter.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

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Oh, really? And I am to take your word over John's? You have totally missed the intent of the scriptures, not to mention the TIMING in Revelation. 

We are just discussing scripture. Read and make your own assessment.

 

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WHERE ARE WE NOW in John's narrative? In chapter 1 it was while John was alive: in chapter 21 it is far into our future: so somewhere between is where we are NOW. The church has been waiting at the 5th seal all this time, waiting for the very last church age martyr. What will make a certain martyr the very last church age martyr? Of course, the END of the church age. What will END this age we are in now, the time of waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles? Of course, it will be the RAPTURE that will end the church age. What is next after the 5th seal? Of course the 6th seal and the start of judgment: WE ARE NOT THERE YET.  God is waiting on that last martyr of the church age. 

Of course for those people whose theories deny the pretrib rapture, they have the fullness of the Gentiles colliding with the 70th week of DAniel, which is for DANIEL'S people. John's chronology can be TRUSTED. 

What does John mean my sealing?  I wrote that it was for their protection. I knew what I was writing:

REv. 9: ³ And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. ⁴ They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Perhaps You are confusing OUR sealing with their sealing: WE are sealed by the Holy Spirit in OUR spirit. This sealing is on the forehead - that is outside, not something in the brain or inside. It is certainly NOT the same seal. Without a doubt these 144,000 have turned to Jesus. 

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. ² And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. ³ And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. ⁴ These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 

So WHO ARE THESE? WHERE are they? Notice John's timing: it is just after the midpoint of the week: there is going to be more than 3.5 years before Jesus returns to earth. 

In (Rev 14:1-5) these are souls that were about to be resurrected. But before this will happen, Jesus sent angels preaching the last everlasting gospel and said for all his people to come out of Babylon, because he is getting ready to destroy her. Once this happened, and they came out, then they were resurrected at the end of the chapter (Rev 14:16)

 

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Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb  John was in heaven, and saw Jesus. AT this time OF COURSE Jesus is still in heaven: He will not return to earth until some unknown time after the week has finished. 

his Father’s name written on their foreheads.   Now we know what the mark really is: the FAther's name written. 

before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.    This can ONLY be in heaven.

who had been redeemed from the earth.   This PROVES they are in heaven: FROM the earth means not on the earth any longer.

They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.   WHERE is Jesus? Of course in heaven, and that is where they follow Him. 

Firstfruits  These are the firstfruits of the descendants of Jacob. At this time God has "harvested" the fullness of the Gentiles with the pretrib rapture. Now He has harvested the firstfruits of the Jews and Hebrews.

Since they are in heaven, without a doubt they will be COLLECTED. How else will they get from earth to heaven? DIE? There is not one hint they have died. Therefore I say they were raptured. But since flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, they just as those alive in Christ will be changed as they are caught up, without a doubt, these 144,000 will be changed as they are caught up:  changed into resurrection bodies.  I disagree with you here. 

 

These are the firstfruits of Christ that he redeemed from the earth, as Paul described. Before Christ arose, the spirits were trapped with the body. Their was no where for it to go. David prayed that his soul (spirit) would not be left in hell and the holy one would not see corruption. One of these souls is King David. But his body is getting ready to be resurrected in (Rev 14:16)

 

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Sorry, but that would not make them "firstfruits."  First means FIRST.  Sorry, but they are ALIVE to day because very soon this prophecy will come to pass, and they will be sealed. What? Y0u think they will be sealed DEAD? No, they are alive today and the time of their sealing could be very soon. If the rapture was tonight, their sealing would be right after the 6th seal earthquake and start of the Day of the Lord. How long after the rapture? Probably only days. 

 They were the firstfruits redeemed. Jesus was the Firstfruit resurrected.

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Then you have robbed God of firstfruits. Firstfruits means they come FIRST! Why not just BELIEVE John and understand that soon after the pretrib rapture (in Rev. just before the 6th seal earthquake) these 144,000 will be sealed for their protection; and soon after that the first trumpet judgment will hit. 

Sealed simply means accounted for, owned by God, redeemed, bought and paid for by his blood

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Paul is right. The resurrection of the just and unjust is shown in (Rev 14:16) & (Rev 14:19). This is minutes before the day of wrath. The 7 vials will literally be poured out in one day. The destruction of Babylon was in 1 hour.

 Why don't we just follow John...can we?

Joel 2: ³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Isaiah 2:¹² For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Rev. 6

 

² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Joel tells us the sun will turn dark and the moon into blood as the sign for the Day of the Lord. 

Isaiah tells us that on the Day of the Lord, there will be a mighty earthquake and people will go into the holes and caves  for fear of the Lord: EXACTLY what John tells us is happening at the 6th seal. THEY all know it is the start of the Day of the Lord. I wonder why YOU don't know it. 

John then tells us what they already knew, it is the start of the Day of the Lord. 

Then in Rev. 11, John wrote, "thy wrath is come." This is a Greek Aorist active infinitive type verse that speaks of an event starting in the past. That certainly agrees with His wrath beginning at the 6th seal. 

Revelation 14 is symbolic a prophetic: God is not going to harvest humans with a sickle! And this is just before the days that GT is going to START: so it is not time for harvest.  These verses are prophetic: speaking of events soon to come, but NOT at that time. For example, God will consider those beheaded as a part of the righteous harvest, and those at the battle of Armageddon as the wicked harvest.  Therefore I disagree with you. God is certainly not going to kill 1/3 of earth's population and He NOT be angry! He is not going to send stinging beasties to torture people unless He has wrath. And that is exactly what Revelation shows us: the start of Wrath at the 6th seal.

. This is minutes before the day of wrath. The 7 vials will literally be poured out in one day.   I believe that, but it is not the beginning of God being angry.

Edited June 4, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept (those who died before he rose). So the order of the resurrection is Christ, the first to be risen eternally. Then those that are his at his coming (Rev 14:14). Then cometh the end when he shall deliver his kingdom to God (Rev 14:16). The end is really at the (7th vial) in (Rev 16:17-21), but there are recapitulation in Rev 17, Rev 18, Rev 19, & Rev 20 until we get to the GWT of judgment.

Well! Praise the Lord! It it a miracle: we actually agree on something! Yes, of all who have ever died, Jesus is the very first to raise from the dead with a resurrection, flesh and bone body. But this is as far as I can agree with. Allow me to assist:

"Then those that are his at his coming" (1 Thes. 4:15-17).

The end is really at the (7th vial) in (Rev 16:17-21), Again we agree! the 7th vial is the end of the Jewish age.  (the rapture will be the end of the "fullness of the Gentiles" age (The age of grace).

there are recapitulation in Rev 17, Rev 18, Rev 19, & Rev 20  I don't think so.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

I am not ignoring them. These are souls that John saw. They were the firstfruits that were redeemed when Christ rose from the dead. John saw them being redeemed by Jesus. To be redeemed does not mean resurrected. They were sealed in Jesus and their souls were with him, kept securely. 

Now this is important. I would like you to study this. The ones that John saw in (Rev 7:1-17) are the exact same group as we are seeing in (Rev 14:1-5). When John saw them in heaven, he saw their souls REDEEMED.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

When John first saw them in chapter 7, they were alive and well and on earth and about to be sealed (a MARK on their forehead: the Father's name) for their protection. 

The next time John saw them they are in heaven around the throne.  There is not one hint they are "souls" or people who have died and only their spirits and souls are seen. They are indeed "redeemed," but this does not mean they died and John is seeing their spirits. On the contrary, it much more appears they have been raptured and changes just as those alive and in Christ will be at the rapture.  "Redeemed" from the earth  A website has "gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment.." Here Jesus has just taken possession of them and moved them from earth to heaven: EXACTLY as He will do for the church. 

To be redeemed does not mean resurrected.     Not "resurrected" as if they were dead, but CAUGHT UP and changed into a resurrectin body (a body that will never die) just as those in Christ will be at the rapture. I suspect they were changed when Jesus caught them up. I don't think they died. I see no hint of them having died. I don't think they were martyred. There is no hint of that. There is no hint they were only "souls." Compare them with the group too large to number in Rev. 7.  Of that large group, again, no hint they are only "souls." 

Their body's are still in the ground until (Rev 14:16), at the end of the same chapter.  How can they be in the ground if they have already been caught up to heaven? The truth is, they cannot. Just believe John: these 144,000 will be just snatched up while alive, changed into bodies that will never die, and escorted into heaven. John will get His main harvest of  Jews after the week has finished. Here He only gets firstfruits.

Therefore I disagree with you. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, TMarcum said:

In (Rev 14:1-5) these are souls that were about to be resurrected. But before this will happen, Jesus sent angels preaching the last everlasting gospel and said for all his people to come out of Babylon, because he is getting ready to destroy her. Once this happened, and they came out, then they were resurrected at the end of the chapter (Rev 14:16)

No, there is no hint they are souls. And they have already been "raptured" and will now follow Jesus everywhere.  In other words, they were sealed to survive the trumpet judgments, the God caught them up to heaven as firstfruits of the Hebrews. They get their OWN "rapture." 

Note very carefully, they are seen in heaven BEFORE the warnings are given: the warnings are therefore for those ON EARTH, and have nothing to do with those already in heaven. 

Sorry, but God is not going to harvest humans with sickles: neither will Jesus be on a cloud: these verses are SYMBOLIC of two harvest coming soon: the righteous and then the sinner.  Not only are these verses SYMBOLIC, they are PROPHETIC. Look at the first verses of chapter 15: the beheaded are just now (in chapter 15) showing up in heaven, showing us that the days of GT have just started. The destruction of "Mystery Babylon" - the city of Jerusalem, will not come until later in the week.  Much of the destruction will come at the 7th vial earthquake. 

Sorry, no resurrections in chapter 14. These verses are prophetic, showing FUTURE events soon to come. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, TMarcum said:

These are the firstfruits of Christ that he redeemed from the earth, as Paul described. Before Christ arose, the spirits were trapped with the body. Their was no where for it to go. David prayed that his soul (spirit) would not be left in hell and the holy one would not see corruption. One of these souls is King David. But his body is getting ready to be resurrected in (Rev 14:16)

Did you not read of the rich man and Lazarus? Before Christ arose, ALL spirits of the deceases went DOWN: to hades. But there were two separated places: one with fire, one without. Lazarus went to where Abraham was. The rich man went to the fire. 

Yes, the souls in Abraham's bosom was trapped there deep in the earth. they had to wait for Jesus to rise. THEN Jesus released them from that prison.  I suspect David was resurrected as one of the Elders when Jesus rose from the dead (Matthew 27). The general resurrection for the Old Testament saints I believe will come at the 7th vial that ends the week. When God raises those from before the flood, it is going to cause a great and mighty earthquake!

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, TMarcum said:

Sealed simply means accounted for, owned by God, redeemed, bought and paid for by his blood

Sorry, but that is human imagination: The Word tells us they had the Father's name written on their forehead. For all we know, it was VISIBLE. For sure the stinging beasties at the 5th seal could see the mark, and left those people alone. Have you never seen "the seal of the state of ______ And name any state? This seal is imprinted on some of the paperwork from each state.  A web site tells us for seal: "an embossed emblem, figure, symbol, word, letter, etc., used as attestation or evidence of authenticity."