JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2020 Will Christians become as numerous as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore? Yes! Hebrews 11:11-12 From Abraham the father of all who are of faith came "descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore." Question: Do these three Bible verses teach that Christians are now, and will be in the future, few in numbers? No! (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" Why? Because there are well over 2,300,000,000 Christians in the world .and 2.3 billion Christians cannot be a "little flock" or only a "few". There are over 16,000,000 Southern Baptist in the United States. Sixteen million Christians cannot be a "little flock" or a "few." There are over 1300 Protestant mega-churches in the United States with weekly attendance over 2000. That many Christians cannot be a "little flock" or just a "few." Anticipated objection: "Those people up there are not true Christians."___John Small Church My reply to John Small Church: It is absolutely impossible for you to know for certain that they are not true Christians. You do not have the power or the authority to judge the hearts of other people. That's just a fact and its an absolute fact. Only God has the power and the authority to judge the hearts of people and to know if they are, or are not, true Christians. I say all this, John Small Church, in the spirit of love and kindness. Remember this: You, like all Christians, are imperfect. You are not sinless. Therefore any one of those 2.3 billion Christians could look at the imperfections in your life and they could say about you, what you just said about them, namely that you are not a true Christian. So the conversation can end up like this: Bob: I am a true Christian, but you Tom, are not a true Christian. Tom: No Bob, I am a true Christian, but you are not a true Christian. Bob: No Tom, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian. Tom: No Bob, you do not meet my standards for being a true Christian ________________ These 5 biblical passages below teach that the Christian Church will be HUGE-ENORMOUS in numbers. (1) Genesis 22:15-18 with (2) Galatians 3:6-9 with (3) Romans 4:16-17 with (4) Hebrews 11:11-12 with (5) Revelation 7:9-10 Meanwhile this thought: "As of the year 2015, Christianity has more than 2.3 billion adherents, out of about 7.5 billion people. The faith represents one-third of the world's population and is the largest religion in the world, with the three largest groups being the Catholic Church, Protestantism, and the Eastern Orthodox Church."__wiki ______ Clearly, Christianity is not now a "little flock" and it is impossible to interpret the Bible as teaching that the Christian Church is always going to be a "little flock." When was Christianity a "little flock"? Answer: It was a "little flock" at the time the Lord Jesus spoke the words of Luke 12:32. At that time there was probably less than 300 Christians in the entire world of the 1st century. The Christian Church is not a "little flock" now and will never again be a "little flock." So? So clearly these verses . . (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . . . . .are NOT predictive of the future of the numerical size of the Christian Church. I will post some more thoughts on this subject in follow-up posts. ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Continued . . . . Genesis 22:15-18 "The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." Note the particulars: (1) "I will make your (Abraham) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore" (2) "through your offspring all the nations on earth will be blessed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Continued . . . Genesis 22:15-18 God said to Abraham, "indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore . . . and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." Note the particulars in Genesis 22:15-18 (1) stars (2) grains of sand on the seashore (3) all nations of the earth shall be blessed through Abraham's descendants. In Romans and Galatians and Hebrews the New Testament teaches that the Christian Church is the spiritual children of Abraham. More about that later. Meanwhile: How many stars are there in the universe? If you google that question, you'll get something like this: "Multiplying the number of galaxies, which is about 2 trillion, by the 100 million stars in a galaxy suggests there could be about 10 raised to the 20th power stars in the universe." That would be trillions and trillions of stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Continued . . . Please consider these 5 biblical passages regarding the present and coming HUGE-ENORMOUS numbers of the Christian Church. (1) Genesis 22:15-18 with (2) Galatians 3:6-9 with (3) Romans 4:16-17 with (4) Hebrews 11:11-12 with (5) Revelation 7:9-10 Start quote. "So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Galatians 3:6-9 End quote. In Galatians 3:6-9 Paul teaches that those who have faith are the children of Abraham. (The children of Abraham are therefore the Christian Church.) In Genesis 22:15-18 God said to Abraham that he would make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the sand on the seashore. (millions) So? So Genesis 22:15-18 clearly CONNECTS with Galatians 3:6-9 So? So the numbers of the Christian Church (the children of Abraham) will be as numerous as the numbers of stars in the sky and as numerous as the sand on the seashore.(millions) So? So the following 3 verses cannot be applied to the numerical FUTURE of the entire Christian Church . . . A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" Those verses up there (A), (B), (C) CANNOT be given a historically PREDICTIVE interpretation. They MUST be interpreted ONLY as describing the numerical conditions of the first century in which they were written. If you interpret them to refer to the FUTURE numbers of the Christian Church then you have created a contradiction. between Genesis 22:15-18 and Galatians 3:6-9 (and other Bible verses too) Again the ONLY proposition of my Opening Post and follow-up posts is that the numerical size of the Christian Church is NOT now, and never again will be, a "little flock" or "few" in number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Continued . . . Now add Revelation 7:9-10 which says that there is a great multitude of the saved from every nation, tribe, people and language and they are so numerous that no one can count them. "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes . . .and they cried out . . . Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb." Revelation 7:9-10 So? So these verses . . . (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . CANNOT be given a historically PREDICTIVE interpretation. They ONLY describe the small numbers of Christians who lived in the first century at the beginning of the public ministry of the Lord Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Continued . . . Now consider Hebrews 11:11-12 and Romans 4: 16-17 Hebrews 11:11-12 says that from Abraham came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. This is a NEW TESTAMENT verse that says clearly that the Christian Church is NOT going to remain a "little flock." or just a "few". Abraham's descendants have been clearly identified as the Christian Church in the verses up-thread. Then add Romans 4: 16-17 that teaches that "Abraham's offspring" is the Christian Church and says clearly that "He (Abraham) is the father of us all." So? So there is no POSSIBLE way to interpret . . . (A) Luke 12:32's "little flock" (B) Matthew 7:14's "only a few find it" (C) Matthew 22:14's "many are invited, but few are chosen" . . .as being historically PREDICTIVE of the FUTURE numbers of the Christian Church. Conclusion: The final numbers of the Christian Church will be as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. The Christian Church is NOT now and will NEVER again be just a "few" or a "little flock." This ought to cheer the hearts and minds of all we Christians. Moreover, the Lord Jesus deserves a HUGE growing Christian Church in the world and He is going to have that. Christendom is right now at 2.3 billion worldwide and we are growing like wildfire in the Global South, in places like Africa. Also there is a HUGE growing underground Christian Church in China. House Church. And there is an HUGE-ENORMOUS Christian Church in South Korea. ` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 Continued . . . In Conclusion . . . "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" ___The Lord Jesus in Matthew 16:18 NIV Note the phrase "I will BUILD my church" Does not this phrase and this verse clearly suggest that the numerical size of His church will not forever be a "little flock" and only a "few"? My view is that the Lord Jesus could not successfully BUILD His church if it forever remained a "little flock" and only a "few" in numbers? _______ Then consider the Lord Jesus's Great Commission at the end of Matthew's gospel chapter 28. Start quote. "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28:16-20 End quote. Note the particulars: (1) The Lord Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of ALL the nations, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (2) The Lord Jesus explained that they were to do this because He NOW had been given all authority in both Heaven and on Earth. (3) This "all authority" that the Lord Jesus NOW has both in Heaven and on Earth is the reason why His disciples would be successful in making disciples of ALL the nations. It is Jesus' power that empowers the certain success of His Great Commission to His Christian Church. So? So Matthew 28:16-20 clearly teaches that the Christian Church will not forever remain a "little flock" and only a "few" in numbers? My view is that it would be impossible for the disciples of the Lord Jesus to successfully make disciples of ALL nations teaching them to obey the commands of the Lord Jesus --- and at the same time the Christian Church remain only a "little flock" and only be a "few" in numbers? So? So regarding the Opening Post and all my follow-up posts in this thread, I conclude that the proposition "The Christian Church is NOT now and will NEVER again be just a "few" or a "little flock{" --has been established as true. The End. May God Bless Us All. ` 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAllThere Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 462 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 335 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/27/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2020 The church grows up together. "True" Christians and "False" Christians. The wheat and the tares. The sheep and the goat. But only God can divide them - and he does this on the Day of Judgement. What's important is to make sure that you know you are wheat. That you are a sheep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 779 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,960 Content Per Day: 3.03 Reputation: 1,989 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) Ever wonder why Jesus said christians will b hated by nations because of His name ? Arent there 2 billion christians ? Are they giving Jesus a bad name ? Edited June 28, 2020 by R. Hartono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted June 28, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Josheb said: Great post, JAG**. We must remember this flock is the single seed promised long ago that is Christ (Gal. 3:16). It has grown enormously to include many members... all one body. We must also remember that despite the fact it will be a multitude rejoicing and expressing praise, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns!" (Rev. 19:6) in the end the road is narrow and few are those who enter in, in contrast or comparison to wide is the road to destruction and many are those that take that path. Yes, there are more than two billion Christians but there are more than seven billion people overall. This should cause some grief this side of the grave and motivate us to 1) live rightly (because a life well-lived is the best apologetic) 2) share the gospel and apply it victoriously to all areas of life inspired and empowered by the Holy Spirit for God's purposes. Thanks, Josheb. And thanks for your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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