The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return For The Rapture Of The Church

[not an echo]

On 7/15/2020 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

Not sure how the day can be imminent when a major pretrib proof contains this: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living.

I may be missing your point Diaste, but for me, I see all this happening nearly simultaneously.

[not an echo]

On 7/15/2020 at 6:00 AM, Justin Adams said:

On 7/15/2020 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

This is in contrast to the idea the day is a snare for those who cry, "Peace and safety!"

Not sure how the day can be imminent when a major pretrib proof contains this: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living.

 

It is a pulpit thing. To scare the hearers to give more and all kinds of wearisome things that only pulpit peddlers know.

Hello Justin,

It is surely troubling that some are just that, "pulpit peddlers".  I've had an encounter or two with such (really more than that).  And I've seen a lot of good people really hurt by "wolves in sheep's clothing."  I guess we could wonder a little about the integrity of Scripture if it was different than this, for the Bible certainly warns us of them.  The best litmus test that I have for quickly determining if one is a wolf is to consider whether I can see Jesus in them.  Also, if you meet a "preacher" and you catch the glimmer of a fang, watch out.  Thankfully, all are not counterfeits, and our encounters with those that are can help us appreciate those that are genuine all the more.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/15/2020 at 6:00 AM, Justin Adams said:

On 7/15/2020 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

This is in contrast to the idea the day is a snare for those who cry, "Peace and safety!"

Not sure how the day can be imminent when a major pretrib proof contains this: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living.

 

It is a pulpit thing. To scare the hearers to give more and all kinds of wearisome things that only pulpit peddlers know.

When it happens, it will be during a time of upheaval and great turmoil; no internet and phones and societal breakdown. It will be UNMISTAKABLE and noisy and maybe violent. Certainly no secret at all.

Concerning your last sentence, relating to the common belief that Christ's return for the rapture will be secret, in my years of contemplating what I have come to refer to as Christ's Sign Return (Matt. 24:30), I have noticed something that I believe needs to be understood just a little differently.  What I am referring to is the common belief that Jesus will return invisibly at the rapture.  According to the evidence of Scripture, it needs to be understood that for those left behind who may not see Jesus, it will be because He is NOT visible instead of INvisible.  By this I mean, not visible to anyone outside of Israel's hemisphere.  What I am getting at is easily illustrated by something all of us observe regularly.

Because the earth is a sphere, the sun is not visible to everyone on the earth simultaneously.  For example, when it is noon in Israel, the sun is not visible to anyone in the United States, however, it is very visible throughout the hemisphere of which Israel is a part---and vice-versa.  So, while the sun is often not visible, it is never invisible.  Now, THE SON can be invisible if He wants to be!  Or, visible to some while at the same time invisible to others or whatever He wants!  But, a lot of what He wants or intends to do, is revealed in Scripture.  We just have to try to interpret it correctly.

The belief that Christ will return invisibly at the rapture has been based upon His return as a "thief."  However, Christ's returning as a thief does not have to mean that His return will be invisible.  No thieves have ever worked invisibly, but most do work in a manner where they won't be seen or where their being seen will be limited.  And, if they are seen or glimpsed, it is often not realized what they have done until it is too late.  This is because they do what they do suddenly and unexpectedly, and then they are gone.  According to what we find in Scripture, such will be the nature of the first phase of Christ's return (Matt. 24:42-44;  Lk. 21:34-36;  and I Thess. 5:1-4).

In years past, when I would try to imagine Christ returning as a thief to take His Church out of this world, my only concept was in tune with the common pre-trib view and without any consideration of the sphere shape of the earth.  I too envisioned Christians disappearing the world over and none of those left behind getting a glimpse of anything, much less a glimpse of Christ.  I too could see Christian's clothes settling in a ruffle as their bodies disappeared from within them or something falling that a Christian might have been holding at the time or vehicles that Christians were driving, suddenly being driverless, and what that would mean.  In other words, I never saw a problem scripturally with how things are commonly imagined or depicted.  And, this is still the way I see things happening, at least ON OUR SIDE of the earth.  I mean, we have Scripture that things in this world are going to be shaken up.  We have Scripture that this is going to happen without warning.  And, we have Scripture that when it happens, it's going to happen very, very quickly.  Hence, as I see it, what is commonly imagined is simply a matter of doing the math.  But, do we really have Scripture that Christ is going to return invisibly at this time?  Let me suggest another equation, much more in harmony with Scripture.

By my math, when it is time, the Lamb will open the 6th Seal, whereupon He will suddenly return to the earth, but in the clouds over the land of Israel.  This will be His Sign Return, and barring a miracle to some other effect, it will not be possible for those left behind in our hemisphere to see this.  Of course, the situation will be vastly different at the time of Christ's Second Advent, when "EVERY EYE shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).  But, more on this in a minute.

Back to our equation, in Israel's hemisphere, even if it's high noon, I can envision everything suddenly brightening up intensely, like in a blink.  Concurrent with this, there will be a great sound of a trumpet, whereupon the resurrection will occur, followed immediately by the rapture of the Church.  Even though multitudes of Christians, arguably most, will not be in Israel's hemisphere, the angels will gather them together so quickly that they too will see (and meet) Christ within a twinkling of an eye.  At this same instant, 144,000 Jews (in Israel's hemisphere) will get at least a glimpse of Christ, a glimpse that apparently connects with their being converted.  They will be sealed, but left behind, evidently for the purpose of bearing testimony to the Lamb and warning everyone concerning the Antichrist during Daniel's 70th Week.

For all the rest left behind on Israel's side of the earth, many possibilities exist that are easily imaginable.  Many will be in or near the land of Israel, but others will be at the far reaches of its hemisphere.  Those who are outside and not facing in His direction at the instant of His appearance may not get the same glimpse of Him as those who are.  It's not hard to imagine everyone that sees His brightness having to shield and shut their eyes, and opening their eyes, He may already be gone!  Some will be inside at the time and may only see the flash of brightness in conjunction with everything else that will happen.  Outside of the 144,000, there's no telling how many will get a glimpse of Him but won't survive all that will happen long enough to tell about it.  Of those missing, some will be gone who were known to be Christians, along with some who were not known to be.  On the other hand, of those left behind, there will be those who were thought to be Christians, but were not---those who were merely religious but lost.

Meanwhile, on our side of the earth, in our hemisphere, it's easy to see those who are left behind shaking their heads---in my thinking, as commonly depicted---left to experience the aftermath of what happens after the opening of the 6th Seal.

As can be seen, my concept of what Scripture reveals is much like that of others who are pre-trib in their rapture view, as far as what it will be like for those left behind over here.  For those in Israel's hemisphere, however, things will be somewhat different, for we can only try to imagine what the sign appearance of Christ will be like, even if it is but a glimpse.  But, Jesus and John give us a little insight---Jesus in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse (Lk. 21:25-27), and John, in his account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-17)

Back to Christ's Second Advent, Scripture is plain that "every eye shall see Him..." (Rev. 1:7).  And, we know that God can effect this however He would like.  But, I see solid scriptural evidence of an interesting possibility relating to this also.  With the sounding of the first four trumpets, the "third part" is repeatedly said to be destroyed.  If this destruction connects with what is in our hemisphere (which equals 1/3 of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point), and this is taken out of the picture (or off the world's stage) for the time of Daniel's 70th Week, the only eyes left upon the earth at the time of Christ's Second Advent could easily be those in Israel's hemisphere.  Meaning, just as the sun at noon time in Israel is visible to every eye in that hemisphere, so will THE SON be very visible to every eye in that hemisphere---simultaneously, in Person, as King of kings as Lord of lords---without the need of any help from cell phones, satellite transmissions, or any of man's technology.  The first thread that I ever started on Worthy Christian Forums concerns this.  It is entitled, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  The possibilities revolving around all of this has continued to engage my interest...

Just learned to add a link tonight. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
added link

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

I may be missing your point Diaste, but for me, I see all this happening nearly simultaneously.

That may be true but we don't know. Imminence in the pretrib doctrine is defined as, "at any time with no preceding signs". 

That may mean signs a moment before, or a day, a week, or a month before. Not my definition. 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

The belief that Christ will return invisibly at the rapture has been based upon His return as a "thief."  However, Christ's returning as a thief does not have to mean that His return will be invisible.  No thieves have ever worked invisibly, but most do work in a manner where they won't be seen or where their being seen will be limited.  And, if they are seen or glimpsed, it is often not realized what they have done until it is too late.  This is because they do what they do suddenly and unexpectedly, and then they are gone.  According to what we find in Scripture, such will be the nature of the first phase of Christ's return (Matt. 24:42-44;  Lk. 21:34-36;  and I Thess. 5:1-4).

 

For you are fully aware that

the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 

While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 

For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 

What Paul says here is the Day comes like a thief and brings destruction on the Peace and Security crowd.

Then Paul says the Day which brings destruction will not come like a thief to us because we are not in darkness.

It's obvious we who are not in darkness will be cognizant of the Day approaching and that cognition is based on signs and conditions, prophesied signs and conditions.

 

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

In years past, when I would try to imagine Christ returning as a thief to take His Church out of this world, my only concept was in tune with the common pre-trib view and without any consideration of the sphere shape of the earth.  I too envisioned Christians disappearing the world over and none of those left behind getting a glimpse of anything, much less a glimpse of Christ.  I too could see Christian's clothes settling in a ruffle as their bodies disappeared from within them or something falling that a Christian might have been holding at the time or vehicles that Christians were driving, suddenly being driverless, and what that would mean.  In other words, I never saw a problem scripturally with how things are commonly imagined or depicted.  And, this is still the way I see things happening, at least ON OUR SIDE of the earth.  I mean, we have Scripture that things in this world are going to be shaken up.  We have Scripture that this is going to happen without warning.  And, we have Scripture that when it happens, it's going to happen very, very quickly.  Hence, as I see it, what is commonly imagined is simply a matter of doing the math.  But, do we really have Scripture that Christ is going to return invisibly at this time?  Let me suggest another equation, much more in harmony with Scripture.

By my math, when it is time, the Lamb will open the 6th Seal, whereupon He will suddenly return to the earth, but in the clouds over the land of Israel.  This will be His Sign Return, and barring a miracle to some other effect, it will not be possible for those left behind in our hemisphere to see this.  Of course, the situation will be vastly different at the time of Christ's Second Coming, when "EVERY EYE shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).  But, more on this in a minute.

Back to our equation, in Israel's hemisphere, even if it's high noon, I can envision everything suddenly brightening up intensely, like in a blink.  Concurrent with this, there will be a great sound of a trumpet, whereupon the resurrection will occur, followed immediately by the rapture of the Church.  Even though multitudes of Christians, arguably most, will not be in Israel's hemisphere, the angels will gather them together so quickly that they too will see (and meet) Christ within a twinkling of an eye.  At this same instant, 144,000 Jews (in Israel's hemisphere) will get at least a glimpse of Christ, a glimpse that apparently connects with their being converted.  They will be sealed, but left behind, evidently for the purpose of bearing testimony to the Lamb and warning everyone concerning the Antichrist during Daniel's 70th Week.

For all the rest left behind on Israel's side of the earth, many possibilities exist that are easily imaginable.  Many will be in or near the land of Israel, but others will be at the far reaches of its hemisphere.  Those who are outside and not facing in His direction at the instant of His appearance may not get the same glimpse of Him as those who are.  It's not hard to imagine everyone that sees His brightness having to shield and shut their eyes, and opening their eyes, He may already be gone!  Some will be inside at the time and may only see the flash of brightness in conjunction with everything else that will happen.  Outside of the 144,000, there's no telling how many will get a glimpse of Him but won't survive all that will happen long enough to tell about it.  Of those missing, some will be gone who were known to be Christians, along with some who were not known to be.  On the other hand, of those left behind, there will be those who were thought to be Christians, but were not---those who were merely religious but lost.

Meanwhile, on our side of the earth, in our hemisphere, it's easy to see those who are left behind shaking their heads---in my thinking, as commonly depicted---left to experience the aftermath of what happens after the opening of the 6th Seal.

As can be seen, my concept of what Scripture reveals is much like that of others who are pre-trib in their rapture view, as far as what it will be like for those left behind over here.  For those in Israel's hemisphere, however, things will be somewhat different, for we can only try to imagine what the sign appearance of Christ will be like, even if it is but a glimpse.  But, Jesus and John give us a little insight---Jesus in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse (Lk. 21:25-27), and John, in his account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-17)

Back to Christ's Second Coming, Scripture is plain that "every eye shall see Him..." (Rev. 1:7).  And, we know that God can effect this however He would like.  But, I see solid scriptural evidence of an interesting possibility relating to this also.  With the sounding of the first four trumpets, the "third part" is repeatedly said to be destroyed.  If this destruction connects with what is in our hemisphere (which equals 1/3 of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point), and this is taken out of the picture (or off the world's stage) for the time of Daniel's 70th Week, the only eyes left upon the earth at the time of Christ's Second Coming could easily be those in Israel's hemisphere.  Meaning, just as the sun at noon time in Israel is visible to every eye in that hemisphere, so will THE SON be very visible to every eye in that hemisphere---simultaneously, in Person, as King of kings as Lord of lords---without the need of any help from cell phones, satellite transmissions, or any of man's technology.  The first thread that I ever started on Worthy Christian Forums concerns this.  It is entitled, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  The possibilities revolving around all of this has continued to engage my interest...

Just learned to add a link tonight. 

I think the above is just unicorns and windmills.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste (and all),

Hope everyone has had a good week.

When I think of Jesus' coming as a thief, I think of Him coming as a thief would---suddenly, unexpectedly, and for the goods!  For us that are saved, we will be the goods that will be taken---whether we be a parent, a spouse, a son or a daughter, a cousin, a best friend, an old friend, or what ever, we will be taken, gathered by the angels to meet Christ in the air.

On the other hand, for those that are not saved, they will be those from which the goods will be taken---whether they be a parent, a spouse, a son or a daughter, a cousin, a best friend, an old friend, or what ever, they will be left behind, to experience the Day of the Lord and what that will be for them.

Of course, when anyone knows when a thief will come, measures are taken.  As Jesus said in Matthew 24:

 43  BUT KNOW THIS, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

But, with Christ's return as a thief, no one knows, or can know.  Further, if one thinks he or she knows or has it all figured out, it surely won't be then that He comes.  In the next verse, Jesus says...

 44  Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour AS YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh.

I'm reminded of the Joker on the Batman movie, when he and his partners were going to take the goods from that chemical factory.  When the safe was opened and it was seen to be empty, he makes the statement, "We've been ratted out here, boys."  Well, ain't nobody gonna be able to figure out when Jesus is going to come for His goods!

Concerning Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church being imminent, I guess I could say that it's a little more than His coming "as a thief" that brings this teaching home for me.  It's the thing of no one being able to know "what watch" it will be when He comes.  Anything that would give this kind of information away has a negative effect on what any thief is seeking to accomplish.

For me, when I contemplate whether Jesus will come "as a thief" at His Sign Return (Matt. 24:29-31/Rev. 6:12-17) or later at His Second Coming (Matt. 24:26-28/Rev. 19:11-21), I am unable to see how He could come as a thief at the latter, with all that will have happened that will point explicitly to "what watch."  And this is not to mention that the way it looks to me, "the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies" will be "gathered together to make war against Him" and "against His army" (Rev. 19:19).  At His Second Coming, it looks like that even those in darkness will then be watching for Him, no doubt supposing that under the Antichrist's leadership, they might have a chance in this battle---but they won't.

It's because of idee fixe you come to this conclusion. Another interpretive filter gets in the way of reality. When the filter of imminence is coupled with 'thief in the night' it changes the hue. 

Then it appears you and others are using a kind of mental white out, a dele as it were. 

Just forget the 'be ready' part. Also tune out "...you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."

The conclusion from the evidence of the above verses you reference from Matt 24 is incorrect as it ignores all the other evidence that we will know when the Day and His coming is near. 

Interpretive filters block out:

"23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance."

"So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

This isn't about the Jews as Jesus references False Christs and false reports of His return. The Jews would not care as they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah; the above is for followers of the Way the Truth and the Life.

"you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief."

"So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door."

Not in darkness? See these things? No imminence.

"“Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened"

Again with seeing signs of His approaching advent...

Based on this it's easy to see the idea of a thief in Matt 24 and I Thess 5 is a contrast of the diligent watcher and the unfaithful servant, to wit:

"But watch yourselves, or your hearts will be weighed down by dissipation, drunkenness, and the worries of life—and that day will spring upon you suddenly like a snare. 35For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man.”"

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"

 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 7/17/2020 at 10:52 PM, not an echo said:

On 7/15/2020 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

Not sure how the day can be imminent when a major pretrib proof contains this: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living.

I may be missing your point Diaste, but for me, I see all this happening nearly simultaneously.

 

On 7/18/2020 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

That may be true but we don't know. Imminence in the pretrib doctrine is defined as, "at any time with no preceding signs". 

That may mean signs a moment before, or a day, a week, or a month before. Not my definition. 

You said, "First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living."

Are you seeing a way that there can be  "a day, a week, or a month" between the "descent" and the time that "the dead are raised" and the time of the rapture? 

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/18/2020 at 6:07 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/18/2020 at 1:37 AM, not an echo said:

 

The belief that Christ will return invisibly at the rapture has been based upon His return as a "thief."  However, Christ's returning as a thief does not have to mean that His return will be invisible.  No thieves have ever worked invisibly, but most do work in a manner where they won't be seen or where their being seen will be limited.  And, if they are seen or glimpsed, it is often not realized what they have done until it is too late.  This is because they do what they do suddenly and unexpectedly, and then they are gone.  According to what we find in Scripture, such will be the nature of the first phase of Christ's return (Matt. 24:42-44;  Lk. 21:34-36;  and I Thess. 5:1-4).

 

For you are fully aware that

the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 

While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 

For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 

What Paul says here is the Day comes like a thief and brings destruction on the Peace and Security crowd.

Then Paul says the Day which brings destruction will not come like a thief to us because we are not in darkness.

It's obvious we who are not in darkness will be cognizant of the Day approaching and that cognition is based on signs and conditions, prophesied signs and conditions.

What I am saying relates to how it will be for those left behind.  In contrast, we are the "goods" for which the thief will be coming.

Now, even for us, Christ's coming will certainly be suddenly, but it shouldn't be unexpectedly.  Paul exhorts the Thessalonians to "not sleep, as do others" but to "watch and be sober" (I Thess. 5:6).  Similarly, he says to the Ephesians, "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord:  walk as children of light (Eph. 5:8).

Diaste, for years I did not walk as a child of light, neither did I watch for Christ's return.  Hey, I didn't even know I was supposed to when I was a babe or toddler in Christ!  And later, when I should have took more notice and didn't, I believe if He had come, I could certainly see myself as being "ashamed before Him" (I Jn. 2:28).  Not lost, but wishing I has been a more obedient and watchful child of the One who gave Himself a ransom for my salvation.  I could say that even as a teen, I believed that Jesus was going to come again---I just didn't live my life watching and ready for Him.  But, (in retrospect and according to my beliefs), I would have still been part of the "goods" He was coming for, whether I was altogether what I should have been and watching, or not.

Concerning your last sentence, I see the Christian era as being full of "signs and conditions, prophesied signs and conditions",  just not what some may see as preceding the rapture (e.g., the manifestation of the Antichrist and requirement of the mark of the beast).  I believe that you are aware of my interpretation of Jesus' opening words in His Olivet Discourse and how I see His warnings as characterizing every century and decade of the era of the Church---which they do.  Also, I think immediately of Paul's words in II Timothy 3:

  1   This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

  2   For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

  3   Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accursers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

  4   Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

When I think of this passage, I think, "WE ARE THERE!"  And a few verses later Paul writes:

 13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Of course, there's more, but I've got to be going.  I do hope that even by my hurried reply tonight, you may perceive how I can be increasingly more "cognizant of the Day approaching",  even though we may see some things differently about signs.  I would like to ask you Diaste:  Can you see "the Day approaching"?

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

1   This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

  2   For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

  3   Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accursers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

  4   Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

When I think of this passage, I think, "WE ARE THERE!"  And a few verses later Paul writes:

 13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Of course, there's more, but I've got to be going.  I do hope that even by my hurried reply tonight, you may perceive how I can be increasing more "cognizant of the Day approaching," even though we may see some things differently about signs.  I would like to ask you Diaste:  Can you see the Day approaching? 

Most certainly the four points above are in full view of any objective observer. The actions of groups in US since February are a perfect example of all four points. The actions of a political faction in the US since Jan 2016 are another good example of what Paul says.

Are we seeing an escalation of 2 Tim 3? Were these conditions non existent 20 years ago? I would say no. 50 years? No, again. A hundred years? Probably not but I don't have a baseline. In reality 2 Tim 3 has been around a long time and I don't know if it can be pinpointed when mankind took the turn from not exhibiting 2 Tim 3 to manifestation thereof.

It's not that I don't understand your points, I do. There just isn't a lot of clarity concerning a beginning to these things nor even the idea of 'last days'. Peter said we are in the last days. I agree. We are not at the end of the age. I think we are close but 'The end is near' has been said for generations. So how could we know for certain what we see is the signal of proximity? 

Jesus tells us in the answer to the disciples questions: "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" They didn't ask about the 'last days', they asked about the end of the age.

Jesus said, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." 

There is a group that tracks this sort of thing. It has to do with the translation of the gospel into all the languages on earth. A decade ago, or so, there were quite a few languages left. Now whether the word 'kérussó' is limited to a vocal declaration of the salvation of Christ and blood guilt or not, it's probably necessary to have written proof to go along with it. In my mind this is the barometer of where we are in future history; scripture translated into every language along side the declaration of the salvation of all people through Christ, in every language and tongue and nation.

We all hear a lot about the following as the proof "We are there!"

"“See to it that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."

All of that has been going on for millennia. So what would be the difference between the past millennia and the approach of the day if the above is what we will see before the end, even though the "end is still to come"? Since 'The end is near!" has been said for a long time, and the above has been going on since there has been nations and people, there must be some difference between the common upheaval in the affairs of mankind and what Jesus tells us is the "beginning of birth pains."

This is one bit of evidence, the statement by Jesus "the end is still to come", that convinces me Matt 24:4-8 is in the end of the age and is in fact the beginning of the end of the age. It makes no sense to me that Jesus would give an answer encompassing the entire history of the behavior of mankind, and it's suffering, when He was asked directly about the end of the age and the Sign of His Coming.;

“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”"  

I can make a case that Jesus is referring to the first 4 seals and the first 3 trumps.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Diaste

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

You said, "First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living."  Are you seeing a way that there can be  "a day, a week, or a month" between the "descent" and the time that "the dead are raised" and the time of the rapture? 

Not really.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,"

Clearly the coming of our Lord and the gathering happen at the same time.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Again, when Jesus comes the gathering happens, at the sign of His coming.

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

A parallel of Matt 24.

The gathering of the saints, the elect, us to Him, happens in conjunction with the sign of His coming, the loud command, a trumpet, power and glory of Christ and His descent. Nothing secret or hidden about it and the Coming and the gathering happen together.