The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return For The Rapture Of The Church

[not an echo]

Concerning the teaching that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, I have long believed that He can come at any time and have often expressed this with words such as, "even before I finish this sentence!"  Understandably, if so, it would seem that this teaching should also hold for all centuries of the Church Era, from the first century to the actual century of His return.

Did the first century Christians believe that Christ's return for the Church was imminent?  Consider Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:

 13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

 15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Should Paul's words be taken as applying to the Thessalonians personally?  I believe so.  Consider the very next verses, which open chapter five:

  1   But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   FOR YOURSELVES KNOW PERFECTLY that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

  3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape.

  4   BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.

Notice also that in the above joining references, Paul made a very close connection between the rapture and the Day of the Lord, which he says, "so cometh as a thief in the night" (vs. 2).  We know that when Christ returns for the rapture of the Church, He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, or as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44;  Mk. 13:32-37;  Lk. 12:39-40).  Indeed, because the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord so closely coincide, the Day of the Lord will come just as suddenly and unexpectedly, again, as Paul says, "as a thief in the night."  These words support that there will be no sign(s) that will indicate that Christ's return, nor the Day of the Lord, is on the verge of taking place.  To the contrary, Jesus said that "in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).  This world will by no means be expecting the rapture event, nor be prepared for the Day of the Lord, which scripturally can commence right afterwards---even on the same day.  But, we as Christians should be ever watchful and ready, knowing that this can happen at any time.

There are several other references that give support to the view that even first century Christians should have been prepared for Christ to come for the Church at any time.  Consider Paul's words, again to the Thessalonians, in I Thessalonians 1:

  9   For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

 10  AND to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

And, his words to the Thessalonians once more, in II Thessalonians 3:

  5   And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

And, his words to the Philippians, in chapter three:

 20  For our conversation is in heaven;  from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

 21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

And, his words to Titus, in chapter two:

 11   For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 13  LOOKING for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Note also that James writes similarly, in James 5:

  7   Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.  Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

  8   Be ye also patient;  stablish your hearts:  for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

In light of the foregoing, it should not be too difficult to reason that first century Christians would have rightly viewed Christ's return as being imminent.  But, there are valid questions that yet deserve addressing and bear upon some specifics.  Consider with me:

     1.  Jesus informed Peter (a revelation) concerning the manner of his (Peter's) death (Jn. 21:18-19).  We know that Peter understood this and was mindful that he would die---something he later alluded to (II Peter 1:13-14).  So, as far as Peter is concerned, it would seem that he would not have viewed Christ's return as being imminent, but rather, his own death.

     2.  John certainly understood what Jesus was saying to Peter (Jn. 21:20-24).  This means that he would have also had to be mindful of the fulfillment of Jesus' words.  I think John could have still felt that Jesus would come in his own lifetime (yes!), but probably not that His coming was imminent---at least, not until after Peter's death.  It would also seem evident that the rest of the apostles would have had this mindset.

     3.  Just prior to His ascension, Jesus told the apostles to tarry in Jerusalem, to "wait for the promise of the Father,"  which was the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:4-5).  He told them that after this, they would be witnesses unto Him (another revelation), "both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).  It seems that the apostles would have been bound to expect that what Jesus was saying to them would be fulfilled.  Of course, they might have expected Him to return at any minute and for His words to be fulfilled in some way that they could not at the time comprehend.  But, I think this is not necessarily so, and especially for Peter.

     4.  Concerning Paul, the Lord told Ananias, "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My name's sake" (Acts 9:16).  Paul had to realize that some pretty tough times were ahead for him.  I would think that until he had suffered some such, Christ's return would not have been imminent in his mind.  Jesus also informed Paul that he would be going to Rome (yet another revelation/Acts 23:11).  Until he arrived there, would Christ's return have been imminent in his mind?  I do believe that Paul felt that Christ would return in his lifetime (again, yes!), but I am doubtful that he would have felt that His return was imminent, at least not until the revelations concerning what he would experience were fulfilled.  Whereas Peter would have known that he (Peter) was going to die before Christ's return, Paul did not have this particular revelation concerning himself, except perhaps near his life's end (II Tim. 4:6).

As can be seen, there are evidences that seem to support that Christ's return would not have necessarily been imminent in the minds of the apostles, at least not in the earlier days of their ministry.  I say "seem" to allow for some angle that I may have yet to consider.  Based upon Scripture, I do feel comfortable in saying that, except for Peter, the apostles looked for Jesus to come in their lifetime, especially as they grew older.  And very probably, after Peter's death, they would have seen His return as being imminent.  Furthermore, after Peter's death, I would have to believe that Christians should have viewed Christ's return as imminent.  And note, they did not know when  Peter would die, just that he would.

In summing everything up, at the very least, the post-Apostolic, late first century Church should have viewed Christ's return for the Church as being imminent.  In my comprehension of what is revealed in Scripture, since that time until now, the only correct view of Christ's return for the Church is that it has been imminent.  Because of this, the only kind of rapture view that I can see that will harmonize with the scriptural evidence is a pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture view.  Said another way, as I see it, any other kind of view meets it Waterloo (like Napoleon) in the truth of the imminency of Christ's return.  Finally, the mindset of present day Christians should be that Christ can come for the Church at any time, even before I finish this senten

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).

This thread is part of a A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by not an echo
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[R. Hartono]

Life is short n its over like the passing wind, whether u make it till the rapture or not.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the teaching that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, I have long believed that He can come at any time and have often expressed this with words such as, "even before I finish this sentence!" 

  4   BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.

 

So we see that although the Lord will come as a thief in the night, that will be for those in darkness. For the Body of Christ we are NOT in darkness that the Day of the Lord would overtake us.

Then we know that when the Holy Spirit has brought the Body `to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the fullness of Christ,` then we will be caught away to glory. (Eph. 4: 13)

So no the Lord`s return is not imminent, but at a specific appointed time of the maturing of the Body, and the believers will `see` the Day approaching. (Heb. 10: 25)

[Montana Marv]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So we see that although the Lord will come as a thief in the night, that will be for those in darkness. For the Body of Christ we are NOT in darkness that the Day of the Lord would overtake us.

Then we know that when the Holy Spirit has brought the Body `to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the fullness of Christ,` then we will be caught away to glory. (Eph. 4: 13)

So no the Lord`s return is not imminent, but at a specific appointed time of the maturing of the Body, and the believers will `see` the Day approaching. (Heb. 10: 25)

Only God knows when the Body of Christ is mature and complete. When God sends out the last trumpet call and that person accepts, it is finished for the completion of the Church. We are just waiting for that last trumpet call. Imminent may happen anytime.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[not an echo]

On 7/5/2020 at 1:08 AM, Marilyn C said:

On 7/4/2020 at 9:59 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the teaching that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, I have long believed that He can come at any time and have often expressed this with words such as, "even before I finish this sentence!" 

  4   BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.

 

So we see that although the Lord will come as a thief in the night, that will be for those in darkness. For the Body of Christ we are NOT in darkness that the Day of the Lord would overtake us.

Then we know that when the Holy Spirit has brought the Body `to the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the fullness of Christ,` then we will be caught away to glory. (Eph. 4: 13)

So no the Lord`s return is not imminent, but at a specific appointed time of the maturing of the Body, and the believers will `see` the Day approaching. (Heb. 10: 25)

Hello Marilyn C,

Whether that Paul is here speaking to the numerics of Christ's body, we certainly don't know when this number will be complete.  Only the Lord knows this.  So, not knowing what God knows, I see it as being very important and scriptural to see Christ's return as being imminent.

In accord with the marvel of the inspiration of Scripture, it seems to me that any generation of the Church could have seen the Day approaching, or at the very least, more and more.  We certainly know that with each passing day, the Day is drawing closer!  And even now, I believe we should all be able to "see" the Day approaching!  When I was very young, I was always hearing older Christians say, "The time is getting closer."  A decade later, the same kind of statements.  A decade later, the same kind of statements.  And even now, the same kind of statements.  There was a little space of time when I thought that such statements might  be foolhardy.  But not anymore!   

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn C,

Whether that Paul is here speaking to the numerics of Christ's body, we certainly don't know when this number will be complete.  Only the Lord knows this.  So, not knowing what God knows, I see it as being very important and scriptural to see Christ's return as being imminent.

In accord with the marvel of the inspiration of Scripture, it seems to me that any generation of the Church could have seen the Day approaching, or at the very least, more and more.  We certainly know that with each passing day, the Day is drawing closer!  And even now, I believe we should all be able to "see" the Day approaching!  When I was very young, I was always hearing older Christians say, "The time is getting closer."  A decade later, the same kind of statements.  A decade later, the same kind of statements.  And even now, the same kind of statements.  There was a little space of time when I thought that such statements might  be foolhardy.  But not anymore!   

It is NOT numbers but the maturing of the Body of Christ as regards to the full truth of the Lord and His purposes.

`...till we all come to the unity of the Faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect, (mature) man, to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.` (Eph. 4: 13)

Paul gave the whole counsel of God but then deceivers came in and brought false doctrine. Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has been bringing the Body of Christ clarity of truth. Here is a list and you can see that we are very blessed having received all those truths from the past that many died for.

 

1. Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)

 

2. Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)

 

3. Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)

 

4. Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)

 

5. Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)

 

6. Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)

 

7. Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)

 

8. Methodist - Holiness. (1738)

 

9. Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)

 

 10 Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916) & the Eternal Purposes.

 

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.

 

`When Christ ascended `He gave some (people) to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ,

Till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ......may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ.` (Eph. 4: 11 - 15)

 

 

[Diaste]

Like the equivalency of 70th Week/Wrath, imminence is an interpretive filter. No direct testimony exists in scripture for imminence, it's not even implied. 

"Thief in the night" is an example of filtering though the lens of imminence. 

The idea of 'thief in the night' is commentary on those who walk in darkness and are unaware of spiritual truths and conditions; it's not evidence of imminence. 

Another filter though which the 2nd coming is interpreted is 'temporal reality'. This skews the truth horribly. Paul speaking to spiritual awareness. These people who walk in darkness are ignorant of the spiritual consequences and this has nothing to do with "No signs before the 'rapture'."

The Day cannot be imminent for those in the Light of spiritual truth: " But you brothers, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

This is in contrast to the idea the day is a snare for those who cry, "Peace and safety!"

Not sure how the day can be imminent when a major pretrib proof contains this: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living.

 

[Justin Adams]

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

This is in contrast to the idea the day is a snare for those who cry, "Peace and safety!"

Not sure how the day can be imminent when a major pretrib proof contains this: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise."

First a descent, then the voice of the archangel and a trump. That's three signs before the dead are raised, the raising of the dead being a fourth sign before the 'rapture' of the living.

 

It is a pulpit thing. To scare the hearers to give more and all kinds of wearisome things that only pulpit peddlers know.

When it happens, it will be during a time of upheaval and great turmoil; no internet and phones and societal breakdown. It will be UNMISTAKABLE and noisy and maybe violent. Certainly no secret at all.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

It is a pulpit thing. To scare the hearers to give more and all kinds of wearisome things that only pulpit peddlers know.

When it happens, it will be during a time of upheaval and great turmoil; no internet and phones and societal breakdown. It will be UNMISTAKABLE and noisy and maybe violent. Certainly no secret at all.

Could not agree more.

[not an echo]

On 7/15/2020 at 5:49 AM, Diaste said:

Like the equivalency of 70th Week/Wrath, imminence is an interpretive filter. No direct testimony exists in scripture for imminence, it's not even implied. 

"Thief in the night" is an example of filtering though the lens of imminence. 

The idea of 'thief in the night' is commentary on those who walk in darkness and are unaware of spiritual truths and conditions; it's not evidence of imminence. 

Hello Diaste (and all),

Hope everyone has had a good week.

When I think of Jesus' coming as a thief, I think of Him coming as a thief would---suddenly, unexpectedly, and for the goods!  For us that are saved, we will be the goods that will be taken---whether we be a parent, a spouse, a son or a daughter, a cousin, a best friend, an old friend, or what ever, we will be taken, gathered by the angels to meet Christ in the air.

On the other hand, for those that are not saved, they will be those from which the goods will be taken---whether they be a parent, a spouse, a son or a daughter, a cousin, a best friend, an old friend, or what ever, they will be left behind, to experience the Day of the Lord and what that will be for them.

Of course, when anyone knows when a thief will come, measures are taken.  As Jesus said in Matthew 24:

 43  BUT KNOW THIS, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

But, with Christ's return as a thief, no one knows, or can know.  Further, if one thinks he or she knows or has it all figured out, it surely won't be then that He comes.  In the next verse, Jesus says...

 44  Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour AS YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh.

I'm reminded of the Joker on the Batman movie, when he and his partners were going to take the goods from that chemical factory.  When the safe was opened and it was seen to be empty, he makes the statement, "We've been ratted out here, boys."  Well, ain't nobody gonna be able to figure out when Jesus is going to come for His goods!

Concerning Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church being imminent, I guess I could say that it's a little more than His coming "as a thief" that brings this teaching home for me.  It's the thing of no one being able to know "what watch" it will be when He comes.  Anything that would give this kind of information away has a negative effect on what any thief is seeking to accomplish.

For me, when I contemplate whether Jesus will come as a thief at His Sign Return (Matt. 24:29-31/Rev. 6:12-17) or later at His Second Advent (Matt. 24:26-28/Rev. 19:11-21), I am unable to see how He could come as a thief at the latter, with all that will have happened that will point explicitly to "what watch."  And this is not to mention that the way it looks to me, "the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies" will be "gathered together to make war against Him" and "against His army" (Rev. 19:19).  At His Second Advent, it looks like that even those in darkness will then be watching for Him, no doubt supposing that under the Antichrist's leadership, they might have a chance in this battle---but they won't.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo