Receiving The Holy Spirit

[Deadworm]

52 minutes ago, Don19 said:

I'm not sure what to make of the notion of being "ready for it" or not. By one Spirit have we all been baptized into one Body (1 Cor 12:13). Jesus Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33). This is very clear - if anyone doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Rom 8:9).

And Eph 1:13-14 sets forth the earnest of the Spirit as being a result of saving faith. Gal 3:2 and 3:14 show that the gift of the Spirit is by faith. And Gal 3:13-14 is especially strong on this point: that Christ died so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Spirit is a free grace gift, given because we are sons (Gal 4:6). But being "ready" to receive the Spirit suggests some kind of merit system which is contrary to the gospel. The Spirit is for all believers. Jesus promises the Spirit for all who believe on Him (John 7:37-39) - the Spirit is for "he that believeth on me."

On the contrary, being "ready" merely means that the Holy Spirit determines the right time to indwell the seeker.  What determines "the right time" could involve various unknown factors--e. g. the sincerity of the seeker's quest, the willingness of the seeker to repent and be "faithful," etc.  Remember, the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness" in both Hebrew and Greek.  What you don't seem to get is this: faith/faithfulness is a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition  because we must still depend on grace.

Don: "In John 3:8, when Jesus says, "the wind bloweth where it listeth," this is a reference to unconditional election (Eph 1:3-6, Romans 9:11-24, etc.). Needless to say, the Spirit regenerates only the elect, and He does so at conversion."

No, you are imposing a Calvinist lens on the text unmerited by the context and, in the process, you are committing the academic sin of parallelomania.  Jesus' point is simply this: only God knows when the Spirit regenerates and when He is not ready to regenerate.

Don: "In Acts 19, it does not appear these believers actually had salvific or gospel faith in Jesus Christ. They had only been baptized with John's baptism. And they were apparently under the preaching of Apollos, who knew only John's baptism (Acts 18:24-25), so not the saving message of Jesus's death and resurrection for our sins."

You wrongly assume that Apollos didn't preach the Gospel of salvation by faith in Christ's atoning death and resurrection.  As a Christian teacher, Apollos was "well -ersed in the Scriptures" and was therefore familiar with the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 53 b concerning Christ's atoning death.  Luke makes it clear that Apollos "had been instructed in the Way of the Lord and ..taught accurately the things concerning Jesus."  So Apollos is almost certainly embraced Jesus' teaching about the redemptive significance of His death.  what was missing was baptism in Jesus' name and the actual experience of the Spirit's indwelling presence, which was not an automatic result of profession of faith, but rather an experience of divine power conveyed through the laying on of hands and manifesting through speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Don: "Then the other instance, Acts 8:16. This was prior to God giving the Gentiles the Spirit through Peter's preaching, so it is definitely not normative today."

No, the Spirit confirms Philip's Gospel preaching with signs and wonders.  It's just  that Philip sees no evidence that these Samaritan converts have received the Holy Spirit through their profession of faith.  Philip does not feel confident in laying on hands to impart the Spirit; so Peter and John are summoned from Jerusalem to perform this task.  Again, what is needed is an obvious experience of divine power in the lives of these converts and this experience is conveyed through the laying on of hands.

Don: "A horribly misused verse. Paul in context is not truly telling the Corinthians to examine whether they're actually Christians, but defending his own ministry."

 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith."  No, Paul is doing both.  As C. K. Barrett makes clear in his magisterial commentary on 2 Corinthians (p. 337), "in the faith" is used to mean something like "in the Christian religion (confirmed by use of this phrase in 1 Cor. 16:13)."  Kuemmel also points out, rightly, that it is implied that one may cease to be a Christian--cf. Gal. 5:2ff.; 1 Cor. 9:27." 

 

 

[Don19]

13 hours ago, Deadworm said:

.

..If Apollos did know the saving message, then there’d be no need for him to be taught distinctly the way of God.

He knew only John's baptism. John’s baptism is not for today, and it’s not the saving message. This is evident from the lack of Spirit baptism. It also explains why Paul asked the question he did in Acts 19. The question does not imply that not all believers in Jesus receive the Spirit. The question was asked because there was reason to believe they hadn’t actually believed the gospel. 

Acts 18:24-26:

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent
man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent
in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord,
knowing only the baptism of John.

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and
Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him
the way of God more perfectly.

If a Jewish person today is waiting for the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 53, he is unregenerate and unconverted, as Jesus has already fulfilled it. So familiarity with OT prophecy won’t cut it. Familiarity with “another gospel” won’t work either. Neither does John’s baptism of repentance work anymore. It is through faith in Christ that we are born again and receive the Spirit.

Likewise with those disciples in Acts 19.

Clearly, the preponderance of evidence is on my side here. You simply cannot use Acts 19 to argue that the gift of the Spirit is not always given at gospel conversion, because the issue with these believers knowing only John’s baptism shows us precisely why they hadn’t received the Spirit.

 

Deadworm: “Kuemmel also points out, rightly, that it is implied that one
may cease to be a Christian“

Jesus Christ will not lose a single one of His sheep (John 6:37-39, 10:27-29, 17:2).

As I have already shown in this thread, the Holy Spirit is an earnest (or pledge) in the heart of the heavenly inheritance. To contend that salvation can be lost would be to deny such sealing, assuring work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with us forever. 
 

Deadworm: “Remember, the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness"
in both Hebrew and Greek."

To set forth "faithfulness" as a condition of salvation would be to teach salvation by works, as you seem to be doing. You are incorporating works into the definition of faith, which is to preach another gospel (Gal 1:6-9). On the contrary, if it is of grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace (Rom 11:6).

——

Re Acts 8:

I think the explanation I gave is better, because it agrees with all the other texts I cited that show the gift of the Spirit is to the one believing on Jesus (John 7:37-39), that all believers have been baptized by one Spirit into one Body (1 Cor 12:13), and that the Spirit is given at conversion as an earnest and seal of our inheritance (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5). To suppose that salvific faith is not (ordinarily) a sufficient condition to receive the Spirit would be to deny all the texts I just cited. It would be to deny Jesus’s words in John 7:37-39 that for one the one who believes on Him, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

My explanation also addresses the unique authority that was given to Peter for a brief time (until the full gospel would be revealed to Paul), so that Peter needed to be there to approve Samaritan converts.

The metaphor of living water can also be found in John 4:13-14, where Jesus says:

 

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

But your requirement of “faithfulness” would suppose that one must keep drinking of the living water. On the other hand, Jesus says the one who drinks of the water He shall give shall never thirst, but the water will be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

 

Deadworm: “No, you are imposing a Calvinist lens on the text unmerited by the context and, in the process, you are committing the academic sin of parallelomania.  Jesus' point is simply this: only God knows when the Spirit regenerates and when He is not ready to regenerate.”

And yet, unconditional election is true (Rom 9, Eph 1:3-6, 2 Thess 2:13, John 17:2, Acts 13:48, etc. etc.) so we can use Scripture to interpret Scripture. The fact that the “wind bloweth where it listeth,” referring to the Spirit’s sovereignty in regeneration, is understood in context of the New Testament teaching on unconditional election. I have already shown that the Spirit is for all believers, not just a select few; and He is given to all as an earnest of our inheritance. Moreover, the timing of the gift (aside from the two examples we explored, for which I have provided an explanation) is at conversion, which passages like Eph 1:13-14, Gal 3:2, Gal 3:14, 1 Cor 12:13 set forth. Indeed, we absolutely have no power to direct the Spirit of God. Regeneration is a monergistic act of God where He speaks life into a dead sinner (represented, for example, in the raising of Lazarus from the dead). The sheep hear Jesus’s voice and follow Him. Jesus’s words are spirit and they are life. He calls His own sheep by name (John 10:3). And when He does so, He gives His sheep the earnest of the Spirit, the promise of the Spirit, the assurance of eternal life. What did Jesus tell the thief on the cross? Now, of course, that was before Pentecost, but it was a foretaste of the work of the Spirit in the New Testament dispensation. 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Don19

[Deadworm]

You pontificate your preconceptions without addressing the specifics of cited texts.  For example, you ignore the text's claims that Apollos was well grounded in the Word and would therefore be well aware of the prophecy of Christ's atoning death in Isaiah 53.  His only cited error is his ignorance of Christian baptism.  You also ignore the many NT  texts that decisively refute OSAS.  I"ll gladly bring those to your attention again, if you need this assistance.  

[FaithLady61]

If you have YouTUBe look for 5 Incredible Things Happen when The Holy Spirit enters you.

[Don19]

6 hours ago, Deadworm said:

You pontificate your preconceptions without addressing the specifics of cited texts.  For example, you ignore the text's claims that Apollos was well grounded in the Word and would therefore be well aware of the prophecy of Christ's atoning death in Isaiah 53.  His only cited error is his ignorance of Christian baptism.  You also ignore the many NT  texts that decisively refute OSAS.  I"ll gladly bring those to your attention again, if you need this assistance.  

"Well-grounded in the word" - meaning what? That's not specific enough. A Pharisee may have been well-grounded in the Scriptures. That does not mean "born again." Not even close, especially considering the gospel was only revealed after Christ's death and resurrection. Many who were wise rejected the gospel (1 Cor 1:18-31) - God designed His saving message to be foolish to the world. It takes spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear (Prov. 20:12). The natural man understands the concept of working for salvation, as he works for everything else in this corrupt world, but does not understand the grace of God, the righteousness of God. God hides His truth from the wise and prudent and reveals it instead to babes (Matthew 11:25). Saul of Tarsus was one such example before his conversion. But all that he counted as loss compared to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Peter knew that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, in Matthew 16 (verses 16-18), and it was God Who revealed it to him. But when Jesus told His disciples that He would be killed and raised again the third day (verse 21), Peter rebuked Him. And Jesus replied, get thee behind Me, Satan! Peter wasn't a gospel believer then. Peter was not "converted" when he was with Jesus during Jesus's earthly ministry. Jesus rather said Peter would be converted only after denying Him (Luke 23:32). Jesus also told His disciples that unless they are "converted" and become as little children, they would not enter His kingdom (Matthew 18:3). Anyone in the same spiritual state even as the disciples were during Jesus's earthly ministry is not a born again believer and has not received the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Knowledge of Isaiah 53 likewise does not make a believer born again.

The Judaizers were preaching circumcision for salvation, and Paul wrote Galatians against their heresies. But did they not believe that Jesus died and rose again for their sins? Sure they did. I'm sure they believed Isaiah 53, too. But they added the leaven of works to salvation. As Paul said, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump (Gal 5:9). These were not born again believers. Paul anathematized them as preaching "another gospel"!

There is no text, properly understood, that denies a believer's eternal security, which is the very essence of the gospel - that, as the Scripture says, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That He will save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, seeing that He ever liveth to make intercession for them. That we are free from the law of sin and death. That as many as God has called according to the gospel shall surely be saved (Rom 8:28-39). That if the inheritance be of law, it is no more of promise (Gal 3:18), as these are mutually exclusive just as works and grace (Rom 11:6). That we are like unto one pearl of great price, for whom the Lord has paid all He had to buy us (Mat 13:45-46). That we're sealed unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30). That we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3); a dead man can do nothing, seeing he's dead. That we are not our own, but bought with a price--in fact, slaves ("doulos") of the Lord Jesus Christ. A slave has no ability to free himself from his master.

There are plenty of texts you can throw at us purporting to deny eternal security. None of them mean anything like that, as God does not contract Himself. But those soundbites which are used to support false doctrine are there for the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables (Mat 13:10-17).

Edited July 25, 2020 by Don19

[Deadworm]

23 hours ago, Don19 said:

Don: "Well-grounded in the word" - meaning what?" That's not specific enough."

Apollos "had been well instructed in "the Way of the Lord (18:25)."  Christians were called people of "the Way" before they were called "Christians."  Even prior to Paul's conversion, the preaching of "the Way" included preaching Christ's atoning death in fulfillment of Isaiah 53 (9:2; cp. 8:32-33).  So Apollos had clearly trusted Jesus as his Savior who died for his sins.  As a believer in "the Way," Apollos was "well-versed in the Scriptures...and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus (18:24-25)."  So he knew and believed in the Gospel.  His only theological flaw was his ignorance of baptism in Jesus' name.  

Don: "There is no text, properly understood, that denies a believer's eternal security, which is the very essence of the gospel."

I believe I can convince you that you are mistaken about OSAS, but that is a subject for another thread.  So instead of drawing your attention to the blizzard of anti-OSAS verses here, I will just point out that we are saved not by mental affirmation of correct doctrine, but rather by a new way of being--or what Paul called "a new creation in Christ Jesus."  This implies that we are saved by "faith/ faithfulness" or a new way of living, not by the merits of works.  OSAS ignores the fact that the Greek word "pistis" means "faithfulness" as well as "faith."  OSAS cheapens God's grace by reducing salvation to a get-out-of-jail-free card.  Such a blasphemous trivialization promted an evangelist in our largest Baptist church to bellow: "If you walk down this aisle and sincerely accept Christ as your Savior, you can spit in God's face as you walk out of here and you'll still be saved. "  Jesus taught that believers can theoretically perform miracles in His name without being born again!  There is no disputing that receiving the Holy Spirit is an experience of transforming divine power and only God knows when and whether a professed believer has had this experience.

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Deadworm

[Don19]

3 hours ago, Deadworm said:

Apollos "had been well instructed in "the Way of the Lord (18:25)."  Christians were called people of "the Way" before they were called "Christians."  Even prior to Paul's conversion, the preaching of "the Way" included preaching Christ's atoning death in fulfillment of Isaiah 53 (9:2; cp. 8:32-33).  So Apollos had clearly trusted Jesus as his Savior who died for his sins.  As a believer in "the Way," Apollos was "well-versed in the Scriptures...and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus (18:24-25)."  So he knew and believed in the Gospel.  His only theological flaw was his ignorance of baptism in Jesus' name.  

Quote

I believe I can convince you that you are mistaken about OSAS, but that is a subjec for another thread.  So instead of drawing your attention to the blizzard of anti-OSAS verses here, I will just point out that we are saved not by mental affirmation of correct doctrine, but rather by a new way of being--or what Paul called "a new creation in Christ Jesus."  This implies that we are saved by "faith/ faithfulness" or a new way of living, not by the merits of works.  OSAS ignores the fact that the Greek word "pistis" means "faithfulness" as well as "faith."  OSAS cheapens God's grace by reducing salvation to a get-out-of-jail-free card.  Such a blasphemous trivialization promted an evangelist in our largest Baptist church to bellow: "If you walk down this aisle and sincerely accept Christ as your Savior, you can spit in God's face as you walk out of here and you'll still be saved. "  Jesus taught that believers can theoretically perform miracles in His name without being born again!  There is no disputing that receiving the Holy Spirit is an experience of transforming divine power and only God knows when and whether a professed believer has had this experience.

 

Deadworm: "I believe I can convince you that you are mistaken about OSAS"

Not a chance! I have believed the gospel, and God has put His earnest in my heart. I have no need that any man teach me. I know the truth - the truth which sets the believer free, the power of God unto salvation, by which power those in Christ are made partakers of the divine nature, through exceeding great and precious promises. It is the perfect love of God which casts out all fear, because God is love.

A little child’s “faithfulness” to his parents can be nonexistent, but Jesus says you must be converted and become as a little child to enter His kingdom. Therefore, notwithstanding anyone’s religious pretensions, if he does not possess this childlike faith, he is nothing but unregenerate and unconverted. He is no “new creature,” but the same old creature with new pretensions: no different from other natural men going about their lives, thinking of themselves as righteous, or trying to work out their own righteousness, not knowing God’s righteousness.

Hypothetically, though, if it were possible for you to convince me otherwise, and to believe your gospel instead, my conversion would be an occasion for grief and fear, not joy and comfort. I have no confidence in the flesh. But joy is fruit of the Spirit. Those who are in the Spirit have received the ministry of the Comforter. The Spirit of adoption. Know this: that adoption in the ancient world was binding. Paul’s use of the term to the Gentiles conveys this truth. It was illegal for an adopting father to disown his adopted child, though he could disown a natural-born child. Adoption seals the deal. God has bound Himself by His promises! (Heb 6:13-20) This would have been perfectly clear to Paul’s Gentile audience. He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar.

I tell you: you could absolutely spit in God's face after being saved (nonetheless, such a scenario is unlikely if not impossible, as God gives His redeemed a new heart); it would not undo your salvation, seeing as God has sworn by Himself, as he could swear by nothing higher. Jesus said all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven - but whoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him. And what might this be? How about this: through His promises, God casts out fear today in His children, as surely as He casts out devils. And through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, He has translated His elect into the kingdom of His dear Son. Therefore, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

In fact, grace is not merely “cheap”; it’s completely free! God planned it from before the foundation of the world for His elect, and there is no one and nothing that can threaten the salvation of the elect, as God’s counsel shall surely stand and He will do all His pleasure.

The security of the believer’s salvation rests on God’s faithfulness, not our own. Nothing can separate the elect from God, not even a shipwreck of faith. And Paul (most likely) appeals to the Hebrew Christians in the book of Hebrews concerning this thing, concerning the possibility that they might “crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh” and “[tread] under foot the Son of God, and [...] [count] the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and [...] [do] despite unto the Spirit of grace” - all these things by going back to temple religion, and in doing so, bringing judgment upon themselves along with “the adversaries” (Heb 10:27), which is a reference to the judgement God brought in 70 AD. Not - I repeat, not - a loss of eternal salvation. Indeed, the New Testament shows believers being struck dead by God for egregious sin (Ananias and Sapphira, some believers in Corinth who abused the Lord’s Supper, “sin unto death” in John’s first epistle). Again, no loss of eternal salvation. Just temporal judgment.

So indeed a person could, in fact, have much Scriptural knowledge and even much knowledge about certain facts concerning Jesus and His death and resurrection. Judaizers believed that, too; they just added other requirements for Jesus’s death to be effective. A man may profess Christ’s name and appear Christian before men. But notice what all these false professors of Matthew 7 appeal to: their own works, even the miraculous. They are resting in their own works and not Christ’s finished work. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Jesus wasn't speaking "theoretically" in Matthew 7, but prophetically. There will surely be many who performed miracles in His name who will be condemned to hell, whom Jesus never knew (that is, never loved). Never knew - not knew or loved at one point in time, but ceased doing so.

Oh, it’s very easy not to know the gospel, because the truth of it is hidden from every natural man unless God opens his eyes. As Paul explained in 1 Cor 2, the truth was hidden from the princes of this world; because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. How then could Apollos have known it if he knew only John’s baptism? The princes of this world knew about John’s baptism when they crucified Jesus. Furthermore, as Paul says, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for those who love Him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit.

[Deadworm]

26 minutes ago, Don19 said:

 

Deadworm: "I believe I can convince you that you are mistaken about OSAS"

Not a chance! I have believed the gospel, and God has put His earnest in my heart. I have no need that any man teach me."

Indeed, you feel no need to justify your OSAS position from Scripture, which is after both the teaching of men and of God.  

stay  tuned for my comprehensive refutation, when I find the time.

Don:"In fact, grace is not merely “cheap”; it’s completely free!" 

But your view cheapens grace in the sense of debasing it by making it an amoral ticket that gets punched to get you into heaven rather than a new way of being described by Paul as "a new creation in Christ Jesus."

 

 

[Son of Israel]

On 7/19/2020 at 7:19 AM, LadyKay said:

I remember being taught that a person gets saved, but does not receive the Holy Spirit until sometime later. That the gift of the Holy Spirit is a separate thing from being saved. And that you have to seek out the Holy Spirit in order to have the Holy Spirit in your life. This was referred to as "sanctification".  In other words. You can be saved and on your way to Heaven. But you do not have the Holy Spirit in your life unless you seek to have it and that comes after you have been saved.   I am now starting to question this way of thinking. I am thinking now that when a person is saved. They have the Holy Spirit in their life at the moment they become saved. Then from there with the help from the Holy Spirit, that they grow in their Christian walk.  I am thinking that there is no two classed of Christians. Those who are just saved, and those who are saved and also have the Holy Spirit or also called Saved and Sanctify.  So what do you all think of this?  Am I one the right path here with thinking that when you are saved you have the Holy Spirit right then? Or Does the Holy Spirit come later?    

I was dead until I repented, was baptized and received the Holy Spirit of Jesus into my Temple Body. Now I am alive forever in His Righteousness joy and peace forever in His Holy Spirit, thank you Jesus!

(1Jn 4:2)  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Just receive the Holy Spirit of Jesus into your flesh now, while it is still To Day

[TheBlade]

I've never seen this as a doctrine. Jesus said "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your Children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him." And He said  "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever" And He said  "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth". He also said I will pray the Father and He will send you"

He said it "to them that ask Him". Jesus did  what He said "I will pray the Father". They were all saved all 12/120.  He told them to do what? "He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;"

So did they the 12/120 have the holy Spirit already? Were they getting some kind of EXTRA BOOST of the holy spirit? I was saved for years before I even heard about the holy Spirit. "do you want the holy spirit" they asked. Yes.. short is they prayed then just stopped praying said "you got it". Nothing happened no one said a word. I got up went to sit down and tongues came out. I am not saying anything extra here. I tell exactly what happen. I don't see it as a SIGN I have the holy spirit. It just came out.. I was not doing trying anything I was not thinking other then.. "I am going to sit here in this chair" and it came out. You should not,  but if you toss out that part.. oh blood of Jesus...it was like night and day. You receive power! A boldness you never had. This might not be part of it but .. see we had this bible study in a woman's home that was bed ridden. Well every time when we finished we would go in the room pray with her worship.. any way. One day going into the room out of no where... I can still remember it like yesterday. Oh I wanted to just PRAY! No I mean that was it.. to just pray for ever. It was so wonderful.. and then if like lifted and gone. Just sharing..

There's no doctrine here. Like John 3:16-17. He said who so ever believes. Do you believe that verse? Then why not in Luke? Why not do the same. Read it.. then do what He said. Ask.. don't think twice. No matter what you think feel hear KNOW the moment you asked He gave period.

When this was spoken.. when Acts happened there as no NT. They just went around "have you received the holy spirit since you believed. Easy question.