JAG** Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Josheb said: Then the human will is not autonomous or free. Whether God intervenes or not the human will always exists within the context of God's ability to usurp the human will anytime, anywhere, any way, for whatever purposes He so chooses. He alone is volitionally autonomous, unfettered, and free. Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers Edited July 24, 2020 by JAG** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Josheb said: There are not many verses that teach free will wherein the term mean unfettered or autonomous. None. You were asked. You were asked and have refused. So don't bicker with me if you're not gonna put up. I don't have any intention to "put up" and I have explained why several times. Moreover , , , I don't have any personal interest in your hair-splitting highly philosophical nuances between certain ideas, example your desire to distinguish between {1) Human Free Will and {2} Human Volitional Agency , , , , , ,but that does not mean that you can't make your points about that. Please feel free to "hold forth" on that to your heart's content. I am interested in Real World answers to Real World questions , , , Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers Edited July 24, 2020 by JAG** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glory To God Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 66 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/21/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2020 42 minutes ago, JAG** said: Thanks for your response, but you are not answering the crucial questions about what Real World conclusions you draw from what you are saying. If you do not have credible answers to the question below, then your beliefs have no pragmatic application to real world events. "because of God's decision and not man's will or choices"___Gloy To God "to harden their hearts"___Glory To God Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame or is your view that God "hardened their hearts"? and caused them to do that list of sins and crimes down there? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers Well I already explained my postition on human agency so the question should be derived from that. I opened up the dialogue based on scripture and the biblical narative of the israelites, I don't see the relevance between the aforementioned and modern day rioting. And I will add I don't think it's helpful making comparisons between scripture, the supernatural and earthly physical things. In my opinion the two can't really be compared well against each other, consider how many failed or poor attempts people have made at comparing the Trinity with non-spiritual things. Just wanted to drop some scripture in for people to ponder on. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.39 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2020 On 7/22/2020 at 4:09 PM, JAG** said: Man's Free Will is responsible for all the evil in the would. God created a perfect world. Out of curiousity, how do you explain this verse? I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa 45:7) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, Glory To God said: Well I already explained my postition on human agency so the question should be derived from that. I opened up the dialogue based on scripture and the biblical narative of the israelites, I don't see the relevance between the aforementioned and modern day rioting. And I will add I don't think it's helpful making comparisons between scripture, the supernatural and earthly physical things. In my opinion the two can't really be compared well against each other, consider how many failed or poor attempts people have made at comparing the Trinity with non-spiritual things. Just wanted to drop some scripture in for people to ponder on. ? "Well I already explained my postition on human agency so the question should be derived from that. "___Glory To God Okay. And thanks for all your comments and for your contribution to the thread. Based on what you wrote up there I assume that you put 100% of the blame and responsibility on The Mob out there in the streets that did all this below. If so, then we are fully agreed. ________________________ "because of God's decision and not man's will or choices"___Gloy To God "to harden their hearts"___Glory To God Observe that list of sins and crimes down below: A question for you. Did the people who recently committed the following sins and crimes use their Free Will to choose to do these things and are they 100% responsible and to blame or is your view that God "hardened their hearts"? and caused them to do that list of sins and crimes down there? Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, dhchristian said: Out of curiousity, how do you explain this verse? I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa 45:7) The word "evil" means "disaster" and does not men sin. "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.___Isaiah 45:7 NIV Bible Gateway has 57 different English translations of Isaiah 45:7 and none of them translate it like this: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create SIN; I, the LORD, do all these things." So? So Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God causes men to choose to commit sins. My view is that Isaiah 45:7 teaches that God brings disaster and calamity upon men for His good purposes and reasons. Some of His reasons might be to punish men for their sins. At other times He might bring disaster on His believers in order to purify them or sanctify them or to teach them valuable lessons. ______________ I do know that Isaiah 45:7 does NOT say that God caused The Mob to commit that list of sins and crimes listed down there. Looting of stores Burning police cars Rioting in the streets Throwing bricks through store front windows Shooting police officers The people who recently committed the above list of sins and crimes used their Free Will to choose to commit those sins. And they are 100% responsible and 100% to blame for their choosing to sin. Again, Isaiah 45:7 does NOT teach that God caused The Mob in the streets to loot stores, burn police cars, riot in the streets, throw bricks through store front windows, and shoot police officers. JAG Edited July 24, 2020 by JAG** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.39 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2020 Just now, JAG** said: So Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God causes men to choose to commit sins. My view is that Isaiah 45:7 teaches that God brings disaster and calamity upon men for His good purposes and reasons. Some of His reasons might be to punish men for their sins. At other times He might bring disaster on His believers in order to purify them or sanctify them or to teach them valuable lessons. God allowed for free will in mankind that they could freely choose to serve him. Did He create Sin? No Man is the source of sin, But he created man with the capacity to choose to commit sin, and also with the capacity to choose to Have faith, and choose to serve Him. Virtue, that comes with the threat of the sword is not virtue, but self preservation, virtue that comes from the freedom to choose between good and evil and one chooses to do the good is true virtue. This is what the cross enables that the curse of the Law could not empower mankind to do who had fallen into sin. This is the difference between the Law of Sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:1-5) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.39 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2020 Just now, Josheb said: Already covered several times by both the op and others in the thread. I did not ask you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 `` I will post some Bible verses that clearly teach and assume the truth of human Free Will: Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love." The assumption is that the readers will use their Free Will to choose not to indulge the flesh, but will choose to serve one another in love. ___________________ John 7:17 "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." A clear and solid Bible verses that teaches Free Will __________________ Joshua 24:15 "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." ____________ More coming , , , `` Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted July 24, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 Mark 8:34 "Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. Assumes that the listeners would use their Free Will to choose to take up their cross and follow the Lord Jesus __________________ Revelation 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Assumes that the readers will use their Free Will to choose to open the door. _____________ John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Assumes that the person hearing this will use their Free Will to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus and receive eternal life. ________________ More coming , , , JAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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